FDA to Add Heart Warning for Pfizer and Moderna mRNA Vaccines

Tell that to the guy whos 15 year old son died a vew days after getting a second dose of heart failure.
If i was him i would be taking fucking scalps.
I would be too. No doubt. But drugs are not perfect, and it is a very low rate of problems.

I mean, every statistic is a real person, of course, but statistical risk is the only way we can understand risk in large numbers.
 
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I would be too. No doubt. But drugs are not perfect, and it is a very low rate of problems.

I mean, every statistic is a real person, of course, but statistical risk is the only way we can understand risk in large numbers.
The point is there is no fucking reason to be pushing an experimental vaccine on childen that are pretty much at zero risk from the virus.
The elderly and those with conditions to have a high mortality rate from it yeah that makes sense otherwise your just experimenting on healthy people that are not at risk.
 
The point is there is no fucking reason to be pushing an experimental vaccine on childen that are pretty much at zero risk from the virus.
The elderly and those with conditions to have a high mortality rate from it yeah that makes sense otherwise your just experimenting on healthy people that are not at risk.
Well, I disagree with those who think it is particularly experimental or untested. It is a new technology, but the testing has been very broad. And there are many good reasons for why it was fast to market, mostly having to do with early availability of gene mapping. So, I would definitely quibble with that characterization. I think it is something that has been posited by some pretty dubious sources, and then became truth to a group of people who, like me, don't know shit about vaccine development, spike proteins or anything else. As I said, I am in the same boat, so let's not pretend we are actually expert on the science and technology involved.

That said, I don't really think it makes sense for kids either, but parents are going to make that decision.
 
I still keep coming back to it all being a means of shutting shit down again. Didn't meet the vax threshold by 4th of July. Indian (sorry, Delta) variant. Trump fucked it for everyone with the rushed vax. Red states won't accept another shutdown, but IA is suing for continued benefits so I won't say the US won't take the time out.

Fuck them all!!!!!
 
1200 instances in 138 million vaccinated.🤯
I’m going out on a limb and saying there’s not 138M in the particular demographic of concern. More like a fraction of that. It’s significant enough to warrant a warning. Risk to benefit ratio in that demographic is debatable. I sure as hell wouldn’t ask my kids to get vaccinated at this point.
 
Well, I disagree with those who think it is particularly experimental or untested. It is a new technology, but the testing has been very broad. And there are many good reasons for why it was fast to market, mostly having to do with early availability of gene mapping. So, I would definitely quibble with that characterization. I think it is something that has been posited by some pretty dubious sources, and then became truth to a group of people who, like me, don't know shit about vaccine development, spike proteins or anything else. As I said, I am in the same boat, so let's not pretend we are actually expert on the science and technology involved.

That said, I don't really think it makes sense for kids either, but parents are going to make that decision.
It has emergency use authorization from the FDA im not sure how else to explain that other than its still considered experimental.
If it wasnt still considered experimental they would drop that emergency use authorization and claim full success and be looking for more praise and adulation like all three letter agencies intimately do but they are keeping thier guard up for plausible deniabilty.
 
I would be too. No doubt. But drugs are not perfect, and it is a very low rate of problems.

I mean, every statistic is a real person, of course, but statistical risk is the only way we can understand risk in large numbers.
What is the statistical risk for healthy young adults if they get Covid? Don't be intentionally dense.
 
It has emergency use authorization from the FDA im not sure how else to explain that other than its still considered experimental.
If it wasnt still considered experimental they would drop that emergency use authorization and claim full success and be looking for more praise and adulation like all three letter agencies intimately do but they are keeping thier guard up for plausible deniabilty.
They aren't really the same thing. As I understand it emergency use requires the same level of safety, just a different level of efficacy proof.
 
What is the statistical risk for healthy young adults if they get Covid? Don't be intentionally dense.
I'm not being. What is the survival rate for young people? 99.9% or so. That is why, as I said, I don't think I would vaccinate a young person. Still 99.9% is 0.001 fatalities out of 100. 1200/138000000 is .000008, or .0008 out of a hundred. So let's not pretend the shot is more dangerous than Covid, either. The point is that it is not a dangerous vaccine, and for most people, it is not a particularly dangerous disease.
 
How many of your 138,000,000 are young people that are getting heart problems? I have kids in this age bracket so I've been trying to find actual stats.
Sssseeeesssh!
2D0AB6EF-5CFA-4E59-8FA6-6D5C35FF861E.gif

He's doing government math. Don't try to bring facts into the equation.
 
How many of your 138,000,000 are young people that are getting heart problems? I have kids in this age bracket so I've been trying to find actual stats.
I don't know. The interesting question, I think, is whether there is a correlation between people who have had bad vaccine reactions and people who would have had bad Covid reactions. I only personally know one person who has had a bad vaccine reaction, and it was not life threatening, and I actually don't personally know anybody who got Covid. But if there is a correlation, it would seem to argue for everybody getting vaccinated rather than against, even knowing there would be some bad results.
 
Nobody has died, compared to 25 who died from flawed polio vaccines. I don't think anyone would say mass vaccinations for polio was a bad idea.

Both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines are being reviewed for full approval. With the number of people vaccinated, very low number of adverse affects, and plummeting numbers of covid cases, chances are pretty good they will get full approval. Almost any drug on the market can have adverse affects, even OTC ones. Had anyone here declined taken drugs they need, because there "might" be an adverse affect? I would really like to know.

And I do know someone who died from COVID. 52 YO, good health, was dead within 3 weeks after he found out he tested positive.
 
They aren't really the same thing. As I understand it emergency use requires the same level of safety, just a different level of efficacy proof.
Your pretty close, that is until there is overwelming evidence that they cant hide, disquise or sweep under the rug anymore and have to come clean.
Were getting there, someone just needs to let mumbling/stumbling Joe and the Hoe know we dont want or need it.
Just protect the vulnerable and fuck off.
,
 
They aren't really the same thing. As I understand it emergency use requires the same level of safety, just a different level of efficacy proof.
If you have a different level of efficacy proof how can you have the same level of safety? I am assuming efficacy proof is determined by the number of or scale of trials, again I am assuming. Safety results come from the same trials.
 
If you have a different level of efficacy proof how can you have the same level of safety? I am assuming efficacy proof is determined by the number of or scale of trials, again I am assuming. Safety results come from the same trials.
So, this is my understanding from a long ago Econ course I took, so take that for whatever little it is worth. I believe that the FDA standard had always been safety and efficacy, but the emergency standard, which doesn't generally apply to vaccines, but to therapeutics, is safety only. This means that drugs that have been proven safe for one use could be used, under that standard, to treat conditions for which there was not sufficient efficacy evidence. A good example from Covid would be that hydroxychloquine is already proven safe as a treatment, and under emergency waiver could be used even if efficacy was not clear.

This was like 1993 or something, so the laws and standards could have changed, and I never studied anything related to medicine, so this was information about regulation, but that is my memory.
 
So, this is my understanding from a long ago Econ course I took, so take that for whatever little it is worth. I believe that the FDA standard had always been safety and efficacy, but the emergency standard, which doesn't generally apply to vaccines, but to therapeutics, is safety only. This means that drugs that have been proven safe for one use could be used, under that standard, to treat conditions for which there was not sufficient efficacy evidence. A good example from Covid would be that hydroxychloquine is already proven safe as a treatment, and under emergency waiver could be used even if efficacy was not clear.

This was like 1993 or something, so the laws and standards could have changed, and I never studied anything related to medicine, so this was information about regulation, but that is my memory.
Okay, very good explanation. It is concerning that a vaccine could be approved because it is considered safe while showing marginal efficacy.
 
I don't know. The interesting question, I think, is whether there is a correlation between people who have had bad vaccine reactions and people who would have had bad Covid reactions. I only personally know one person who has had a bad vaccine reaction, and it was not life threatening, and I actually don't personally know anybody who got Covid. But if there is a correlation, it would seem to argue for everybody getting vaccinated rather than against, even knowing there would be some bad results.

I personally know 9 people who i know got Corona, 2 where "fully vaccinated." 1 was a obese Dr who was hospitalized, the rest ranged from mild to severe flu symptoms. The people who had severe symptoms said they only lasted for a couple days. One was my coworkers MIL who is in her late 80's.

I know one girl in her 20's that was hospitalized with heart issues from the vaccine.
 
I'm not being. What is the survival rate for young people? 99.9% or so. That is why, as I said, I don't think I would vaccinate a young person. Still 99.9% is 0.001 fatalities out of 100. 1200/138000000 is .000008, or .0008 out of a hundred. So let's not pretend the shot is more dangerous than Covid, either. The point is that it is not a dangerous vaccine, and for most people, it is not a particularly dangerous disease.
The story we're discussing is in reference to a risk to a segment of society that doesn't statistically even need this vaccine and is having it pushed on them. In some cases even required of them by employers or universities. Without even considering if they already have antibodies. Pretending that this is 1200 out of 138M is indeed being intentionally dense. You are including the millions of elderly who rushed to get the vaccine in this 138M figure. Why would you, if not to mislead? They aren't even at risk for this adverse reaction. If I'm calculating risk of death or permanent damage to my son's heart, I'd like to be a little more fucking specific, ya know?
 
The story we're discussing is in reference to a risk to a segment of society that doesn't statistically even need this vaccine and is having it pushed on them. In some cases even required of them by employers or universities. Without even considering if they already have antibodies. Pretending that this is 1200 out of 138M is indeed being intentionally dense. You are including the millions of elderly who rushed to get the vaccine in this 138M figure. Why would you, if not to mislead? They aren't even at risk for this adverse reaction. If I'm calculating risk of death or permanent damage to my son's heart, I'd like to be a little more fucking specific, ya know?
Dude, I'm not the one who posted that statistic. When I read it I read it to mean total vaccinations, and that is what I replied to. You are talking to the wrong guy if you don't like that number being brought up.

As to the rest of that, I certainly don't think anybody should have anything pushed on them by anybody. That has always been my opinion. Do I think it makes sense for most adults who do not have natural antibodies? Yes, and I think I have been clear why. I don't think I'd have my kid vaccinated, if I had one.
 
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They aren't really the same thing. As I understand it emergency use requires the same level of safety, just a different level of efficacy proof.
That may be what you think but it's not what the people giving the authorization think. Those people think they just have to show that the benefits exceed the likely risks.
 
Dude, I'm not the one who posted that statistic. When I read it I read it to mean total vaccinations, and that is what I replied to. You are talking to the wrong guy if you don't like that number being brought up.

As to the rest of that, I certainly don't think anybody should have anything pushed on them by anybody. That has always been my opinion. Do I think it makes sense for most adults who do not have natural antibodies? Yes, and I think I have been clear why. I don't think I'd have my kid vaccinated, if I had one.
I quoted the post where you tried to explain how the risk of myocarditis was statistically low by comparing cases of it to the total number of people who have been vaccinated. Even doing the math for me as if I'm not capable. It was not a fair analysis. I'm not disputing the amounts in the numbers used or the math. I'm disputing how you're calculating risk.

You were correct, the risk is low for the general population. However for some segments, not so much. Just like the risk from Covid. Calculating the risk for the entirety of the vaccinated is ridiculous when this side effect for a certain segment of the population occurs at a much higher rate. I've seen rates as high as 25% of young males. I don't blame you for not having demographic numbers at your finger tips, I do blame you for trying to downplay the risk as if you know what you're talking about. Combine the risks of myocarditis in young people and universities deciding they can require this vaccine and this could be a disaster.
 
How many of your 138,000,000 are young people that are getting heart problems? I have kids in this age bracket so I've been trying to find actual stats.

- Heart inflammation can occur after Covid infection. Frequency is unknown. Possibly masked by MISC-C (see below for MIS-C cases)
- 12.6 heart inflammation cases per million doses across all vaccines across all age groups.
- The cases were more frequent among Moderna’s vaccine recipients at 19.8 cases per million versus 8 cases per million for Pfizer
- 133 million vaccine 2nd doses administered and 636 reported myocarditis cases as of June 11, 2021
- Men under 30 make up the highest frequency of cases
- 9 people were hospitalized as a result of heart inflammation
- 2 people in intensive care as a result of heart inflammation
- 267 cases of myocarditis or pericarditis reported after receiving only one dose of the mRNA vaccines
- 827 reported cases after two doses
- 132 additional cases where the number of doses received is unknown.
- 21.061 Million under the age of 24 have had at least one dose in the United States. *(see note below)
-
3.092 Million under the age of 24 are fully vaccinated in the United States. *(see note below)
- 2,767 fatalities ages 12 - 29 years from Covid 19
- 316 fatalities ages 12 - 29 years from Covid 19 since April 1 of 2021.
- 1597 young athletes with recent SARS-CoV-2 infection had cardiac MRI and 37 were found to have abnormal lab results. (2.3%)
- 4,018 MIS-C cases have been reported to national surveillance as of June 2, 2021
- Pfizer vaccine efficacy against Covid-19 associated hospitalization was 100% for adolescents under age 16.
- Moderna vaccine efficacy against Covid-19 associated hospitalizations was 89% for adolescents under age 18.


106901477-1624461044154-Screen_Shot_2021-06-23_at_111023_AM.png


*All Data from CDC. All data as of June 11th, with the exception of 21.061 Million and 3.092 Million figures which are as of today's date.




Hope this helps. If you want some more data directly, let me know and I will send what I can pull. I saved the data as tab delimited txt files and the power point presentation as pdf, so that I could upload here for you to review.
 

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So, this is my understanding from a long ago Econ course I took, so take that for whatever little it is worth. I believe that the FDA standard had always been safety and efficacy, but the emergency standard, which doesn't generally apply to vaccines, but to therapeutics, is safety only. This means that drugs that have been proven safe for one use could be used, under that standard, to treat conditions for which there was not sufficient efficacy evidence. A good example from Covid would be that hydroxychloquine is already proven safe as a treatment, and under emergency waiver could be used even if efficacy was not clear.

This was like 1993 or something, so the laws and standards could have changed, and I never studied anything related to medicine, so this was information about regulation, but that is my memory.

The FDA's usual criteria for approval or clearance are 1) safety, 2) efficacy, and 3) quality. The first and second should be pretty obvious; the third is not "quality" in the sense of "this BMW has a really nice interior" or "the bolt on this Impact action sure runs smoothly" but rather the more boring (and important) attribute of being manufactured as intended by the design.

EUAs are a bit more complex, in that a general emergency must exist (this process came about after the post-9/11 anthrax scare), and then it mainly comes down to proving that the product "may be effective" (the FDA's words, not mine), the benefits must outweigh the risk, and no other alternatives exist.

More here: https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Covid appears to have killed a shit-ton of people, most of them old and/or having pre-existing conditions. The benefits of the vaccine is almost certainly is worth the risk to that population, and oddly enough, they don't seem to suffer adverse reactions. My dad, in-laws, and family friends have a number of pre-existing conditions, and for them the jab had very little or no consequence.

Young healthy people have seemingly little to fear from Covid - it would appear less dangerous than the flu - so the risk/reward equation should have a different bias. For whatever reason, they also seem to get hit by the vaccine in a different manner. It would seem that they should not be getting jabbed. But since we're ignoring the benefits of natural infection when calculating "herd immunity", and since we keep on making up bigger and bigger numbers for this metric (which itself is screwed up, since transmission and immunity are probabilistic events), and since I suspect there is information kept behind closed doors that the efficacy of the vaccines maybe aren't as good as claimed, we've got a bunch of old and frightened people that won't support a return to normal until we've jabbed everyone.

A rational approach might have been to stick anyone over, say, age 55, and anyone younger with pre-existing conditions or simply who wanted it and who had no natural immunity.

Furthermore, it probably would have made more sense to skip the two-dose prime and booster schedule for younger people. The elderly probably benefit from this since their immune systems are too old to give a fuck, but younger people respond differently to infection and the data shows that it's the 2nd shot which causes the majority of problems.

As a side note, the EUA requires only 50% efficacy (the target is actually lower when adjusted with a confidence interval). A single shot of the mRNA vaccine supposedly is 80% effective, and the second shot brings this to 90%. Is that last 10% really all that important for a young person for whom a fatal Covid infection is statistically improbable? Or is something else going on? (Like maybe it's not about efficacy of protection for the vaccinated person, but rather something related to transmissibility for asymptomatic carriers?)

The bottom line is, yet again, the Boomers put themselves first and screwed over a younger generation. Sure, we might have doomed a few thousand previously-healthy kids and young adults to early heart failure, but the retired crowd can get back to drunkenly reliving their younger days at local biker festivals, and seeing Journey the next time they're on tour without any fear of the 'rona. Totally worth the trade-off!
 
COVID19 was blamed for everyone who died of old age and chronic conditions. The fake reporting of deaths leaves us in a position where we don't know who, if anyone is at a serious risk from COVID19. So you drink that cool aide and try to scare grandma into getting the jab, but we will remember you did.

Everyone I know who "died from COVID19" was 90+ and actually died from something else. 2 were on hospice for unrelated conditions, tested "positive" after they died, and never had any symptoms.

My 99 year old grandma survived it and is walking again after being bed ridden for almost a year after breaking her hip. We still can't visit her at the nursing home.
 
This is a worthwhile read:


Background: COVID-19 vaccines have had expedited reviews without sufficient safety data. We wanted to compare risks and benefits. Method: We calculated the number needed to vaccinate (NNTV) from a large Israeli field study to prevent one death. We accessed the Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR) database of the European Medicines Agency and of the Dutch National Register (lareb.nl) to extract the number of cases reporting severe side effects and the number of cases with fatal side effects. Result: The NNTV is between 200–700 to prevent one case of COVID-19 for the mRNA vaccine marketed by Pfizer, while the NNTV to prevent one death is between 9000 and 50,000 (95% confidence interval), with 16,000 as a point estimate. The number of cases experiencing adverse reactions has been reported to be 700 per 100,000 vaccinations. Currently, we see 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations, and the number of fatal side effects is at 4.11/100,000 vaccinations. For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination. Conclusions: This lack of clear benefit should cause governments to rethink their vaccination policy.

Killing healthy youth to save frail elderly is the opposite of compassionate, despite what your local Boomer might say.
 
I'm not being. What is the survival rate for young people? 99.9% or so. That is why, as I said, I don't think I would vaccinate a young person. Still 99.9% is 0.001 fatalities out of 100. 1200/138000000 is .000008, or .0008 out of a hundred. So let's not pretend the shot is more dangerous than Covid, either. The point is that it is not a dangerous vaccine, and for most people, it is not a particularly dangerous disease.
BUT… even if all of those numbers are 100% correct the fatalities or even every side effect of the shots are 100% preventable and very intelligently arguably not necessary. So in my simple mind that makes the shot MUCH more dangerous than COVID, especially to young people.
 
1200 ÷ 138,000,000 = 0.0087% of recipients

Yes, just shy of 9 thousandths of 1 percent.

Ok, but the problem doesn't uniformly affect all age groups - as shown above in RGStory's post, it's primarily affecting a narrow age group (roughly 16-30). So the denominator isn't 138 million; it's some much smaller number. It's also hitting males harder than females, so cut the denominator even further.

Even if this still ends up being a small number, the Covid CFR for kids and young adults is similarly tiny. So those isn't like we're avoiding some large risk by taking a much smaller risk.

That group also has a long life expectancy (upon making it through early childhood, one can expect to live well into their mid-80s). Myocarditis is a serious disease that can take years off a person's life, and destroy the quality of those remaining years, or even require a transplant. It's really fuckin' serious, and so even this "small" number of cases is causing the potential loss of many thousands of productive man-years. It's not fair to the victims and society will bear the cost.

If this were *any* other medication, it would have been yanked after a single-digit number of these cases because it's so obviously linked (the background incidence of heart inflammation in youngsters being quite low - like, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/100th of what is being discussed). The J&J debacle was a brief hint at this. The feds done fucked-up in that situation by simply demonstrating how they would normally respond.

We shouldn't be inoculating this age group, at least not for their own benefit. I find it abhorrent that, as a society, we're putting youth at risk to benefit the elderly. But that argument notwithstanding, we probably shouldn't be popping these kids and their robust immune systems with the identical dosing regimen as required by the reluctant immune response of the elderly (which is an adjustment that is already routine with other vaccines). We'll likely figure this out, but by that time, we might kill some kids and ruin the lives of others.
 
Ok, but the problem doesn't uniformly affect all age groups - as shown above in RGStory's post, it's primarily affecting a narrow age group (roughly 16-30). So the denominator isn't 138 million; it's some much smaller number. It's also hitting males harder than females, so cut the denominator even further.

Even if this still ends up being a small number, the Covid CFR for kids and young adults is similarly tiny. So those isn't like we're avoiding some large risk by taking a much smaller risk.

That group also has a long life expectancy (upon making it through early childhood, one can expect to live well into their mid-80s). Myocarditis is a serious disease that can take years off a person's life, and destroy the quality of those remaining years, or even require a transplant. It's really fuckin' serious, and so even this "small" number of cases is causing the potential loss of many thousands of productive man-years. It's not fair to the victims and society will bear the cost.

If this were *any* other medication, it would have been yanked after a single-digit number of these cases because it's so obviously linked (the background incidence of heart inflammation in youngsters being quite low - like, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/100th of what is being discussed). The J&J debacle was a brief hint at this. The feds done fucked-up in that situation by simply demonstrating how they would normally respond.

We shouldn't be inoculating this age group, at least not for their own benefit. I find it abhorrent that, as a society, we're putting youth at risk to benefit the elderly. But that argument notwithstanding, we probably shouldn't be popping these kids and their robust immune systems with the identical dosing regimen as required by the reluctant immune response of the elderly (which is an adjustment that is already routine with other vaccines). We'll likely figure this out, but by that time, we might kill some kids and ruin the lives of others.
I do agree with you. It's clear to me why they were mainly targeting adults with this.
 
I do agree with you. It's clear to me why they were mainly targeting adults with this.

It's also clear why we "need" to jab the children - because we've got rookie numbers that need to be pumped. It has nothing to do with protecting the kids (although that's certainly not what some parents have been led to believe); it's about "societal benefit", which in this case means "protect the old people at any cost". Just so happens that in this case, the old people are Boomers.

My grandparents have all been dead for 20+ years, but I know damn well how they would have responded to a suggestion that a kid or young adult be potentially harmed for the benefit of themselves, and it most likely would have involved an act of violence by a small Polish/Czech woman.
 
A couple of points for clarification:

it's primarily affecting a narrow age group (roughly 16-30). So the denominator isn't 138 million; it's some much smaller number. It's also hitting males harder than females, so cut the denominator even further.

"21.061 Million under the age of 24 have had at least one dose in the United States."
Also, the 1,200 cases were not all from the 16-30 age group, just the majority of cases.


Young healthy people have seemingly little to fear from Covid - it would appear less dangerous than the flu - so the risk/reward equation should have a different bias. For whatever reason, they also seem to get hit by the vaccine in a different manner.

The other element of your statement regarding cost vs benefit, ignored the 4,018 MIS-C cases which is equally if not more harmful than the myocarditis or pericarditis symptoms from the vaccine. Also the study that followed the young athletes that had MRI's done after the Covid-19 infection showed 2.3% of the cases had abnormal heart readings after the infection is equally concerning and worthy of follow up study.

For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination. Conclusions: This lack of clear benefit should cause governments to rethink their vaccination policy.

The conclusions of the study you referenced were not that vaccination should for children should never be undertaken, but rather an argument that we should halt them long enough to identify the common risk factors that attribute to the inflammation and deaths related to the vaccination before considering continuing at a later date with vaccinations of the children without risk identifiers.
"Ideally, independent scientists should carry out thorough case reviews of the very severe cases, so that there can be evidence-based recommendations on who is likely to benefit from a SARS-CoV2 vaccination and who is in danger of suffering from side effects."


it's about "societal benefit", which in this case means "protect the old people at any cost". Just so happens that in this case, the old people are Boomers.

I agree entirely with you here. After lawmakers essentially acknowledged that Obamacare was a tax on the youth to pay for the healthcare needs of the old, I grew concerned that we were creating a health care system that amounted to the same moral standards employed by mythological ghouls and vampires. "Lets bleed the young fuckers dry to extend our own life."