Federal vs CCI primer pressures

[lennyo3034]

Has anyone else noticed a significant difference in velocity when using different primers?

I’m seeing 60-80 fps increase in velocity when using Federal 205M vs CCI BR4 or 450.

My current .223 load shoots very accurately and consistently but now worried I may be pushing pressures.

23.4 grains of 8208 under 80 ELDm. 24” barrel bolt gun. Lapua brass and federal 205M primer. This load should be around 2800 but instead I’m getting just over 2900.

Next step is to drop powder charge, unfortunately I have about 400 rounds already loaded.

 

[whatsupdoc]

26" barrel bolt 223, 80gr ELDM, 23.4gr IMR8208, CCI400 =2850 FPS

Barrel has a long throat so that would make a difference in pressure and velocity due to seating depth.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I've always been told that switching primers requires working up a new load. Going to a hotter primer on a hot load can be dangerous, so back off and work back up.

 

[John Glidewell]

Primer test in 6gt. All shot with 34.2 of RL15.5 and 107 SMK. Recorded on lab radar.

 

[Huskydriver]

Has anyone else noticed a significant difference in velocity when using different primers?

I’m seeing 60-80 fps increase in velocity when using Federal 205M vs CCI BR4 or 450.

My current .223 load shoots very accurately and consistently but now worried I may be pushing pressures.

23.4 grains of 8208 under 80 ELDm. 24” barrel bolt gun. Lapua brass and federal 205M primer. This load should be around 2800 but instead I’m getting just over 2900.

Next step is to drop powder charge, unfortunately I have about 400 rounds already loaded.

How are you measuring the speed?

 

[lennyo3034]

How are you measuring the speed?

Labradar. Also drops out to 1000.

 

[MarkyMark007]

Has anyone else noticed a significant difference in velocity when using different primers?

I’m seeing 60-80 fps increase in velocity when using Federal 205M vs CCI BR4 or 450.

My current .223 load shoots very accurately and consistently but now worried I may be pushing pressures.

23.4 grains of 8208 under 80 ELDm. 24” barrel bolt gun. Lapua brass and federal 205M primer. This load should be around 2800 but instead I’m getting just over 2900.

Next step is to drop powder charge, unfortunately I have about 400 rounds already loaded.

normaly you would get max 20fps difference from different primers and this is not concern about taking different primer, but you never know...

 

[Feniks Technologies]

normaly you would get max 20fps difference from different primers and this is not concern about taking different primer, but you never know...

Well, that’s just not true.

 

[308pirate]

normaly you would get max 20fps difference from different primers and this is not concern about taking different primer, but you never know...

Nobody should listen to this fool, least of which when it comes to safety issues like component substitution.

 

[MarkyMark007]

Nobody should listen to this fool, least of which when it comes to safety issues like component substitution.

you cant read or you just cant understand?
in 99,9999% cases switching primers is not a deal, but like I write: in this 0,0001% everything is possible.
do you understand now?

 

[MarkyMark007]

Well, that’s just not true.

so you will change BR4 for a 450MAG and your gun will explode? this is what you expect ???

but when you start low and than go higher, everything will be fine? but if you skip this step, gun will explode?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

so you will change BR4 for a 450MAG and your gun will explode? this is what you expect ???

Not sure how you rationalized that statement.

You’re not going to be around here long.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

In my experience, i can't tell a difference in speed or group size with 205's or 450s in my dasher. Sub 8 fps with mixing them in the same string of fire over my lab radar. Im not saying that everyone will experience the same but that is my experience.

 

[colodrew]

I’ve noticed in some loads/rifles it makes a small difference, and other loads/rifles it is significant. Testing is the only answer. I also have seen lot to lot variations of primers can make a difference. It’s frickin maddening.

 

[308pirate]

so you will change BR4 for a 450MAG and your gun will explode? this is what you expect ???

but when you start low and than go higher, everything will be fine? but if you skip this step, gun will explode?

You have already established yourself as an idiot with zero credibility. No one should listen to you. On any topic.

in 99,9999% cases switching primers is not a deal,

Where's your data to make such a claim? Do you understand now?

 

[Old Man with Gun]

so you will change BR4 for a 450MAG and your gun will explode? this is what you expect ???

but when you start low and than go higher, everything will be fine? but if you skip this step, gun will explode?

Pressure spikes are not always predictable. Sometimes the difference between safe or not is the brand of primer, case length, crimp or a few thousands less jump to the lands.

Especialy for those running hotter loads, switching primers without backing off some and moving back up is poor advice.

 

[Doom]

Unlike Large Rifle, the difference in small rifle primers primers and magnum may only be in cup hardness and thickness, with the exception of Rem 7-1/2 and maybe #41. But due to the decreased size of the case any differences in primer bruisence can show up in max pressure as can lot to lot variance.

There is no standard for primers so each manufacturer is free to use whatever works that achieves the intended purpose. Since the intended purpose is the same, all the primers are similar, but not necessarily the same.

 

[CK1.0]

It's: switch primers -> look for pressure signs -> load 400rds.

not: switch primers -> load 400rds -> look for pressure signs.

“Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.” – Steven Wright.

 

[lennyo3034]

It's: switch primers -> look for pressure signs -> load 400rds.

not: switch primers -> load 400rds -> look for pressure signs.

“Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.” – Steven Wright.

While you’re right, I did not have access to a range for a period of time. I went ahead and loaded the rounds in evenings thinking it would only be a 20fps difference.

I went back to my notes and was getting same speeds with older Federal 205m as BR4 when doing initial load development on this barrel. Looks like it my new lot of Federal primers running hot.

 

[Baron23]

Whether problems w switching is probable or improbable, it still makes no sense to me to not start conservatively w your load and test for pressure

I don’t see any downside other than the expenditure of some small amount of components.

But I’m no expert like many of you so….take w a grain of salt

 

[CK1.0]

While you’re right, I did not have access to a range for a period of time. I went ahead and loaded the rounds in evenings thinking it would only be a 20fps difference.

I went back to my notes and was getting same speeds with older Federal 205m as BR4 when doing initial load development on this barrel. Looks like it my new lot of Federal primers running hot.

I get it. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. You have to find the humor in some things, laugh it off, and move on. The worst case is you'll be pulling a bunch of bullets, but good news is it'll never happen to you again.

That said, 23.4gr of 8208 is 2.4gr above book max for an 80gr SMK according to these guys: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54. - so changing components at 2.4gr over book max, you arguably did it to yourself.

Depending on your bullet-jump/CBTO, you could try seating the bullets a little deeper and that might lower the pressure...

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I have tested the same load with cci BR2 and Win LRP, and the speeds and groups were almost identical, but I would always start a little low and work up with any change. Look at what happened with molon's AR with Berger ammo..... who knows what actually happened OR, what 2 or 3 little things came together to make something like that happen.

 

[CK1.0]

Look at what happened with molon's AR with Berger ammo..... who knows what actually happened OR, what 2 or 3 little things came together to make something like that happen.

I think that's a definite long shot. I don't think this has anything to do with that.

I had to look up what you were referencing: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...m-tactical-factory-loaded-ammunition.7086892/

On page 4 of that thread a dude calls BS on the OP and asks for a pic of the barrel and damage post-kaboom... and even though it seems as though the OP is a photographer or damn close (due to the quality of the previous pics he had posted), instead of posting a couple pics that could settle the argument and any/all doubt about his story in seconds... the OP says "fuck off", and then ghosts the thread for 2 months while it continues on without him.

Doesn't scan. Smells funny. Some people think they know it all, when in actuality they really only know enough to be dangerous. If I had to guess, that's what seems happened in that case to me.

Berger ended up sending the OP some boxes of replacement ammo and issuing a BOLO on a few lots of ammo that, AFAIK, no one else openly complained about having problems with.

 

[lennyo3034]

I get it. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. You have to find the humor in some things, laugh it off, and move on. The worst case is you'll be pulling a bunch of bullets, but good news is it'll never happen to you again.

That said, 23.4gr of 8208 is 2.4gr above book max for an 80gr SMK according to these guys: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54. - so changing components at 2.4gr over book max, you arguably did it to yourself.

Depending on your bullet-jump/CBTO, you could try seating the bullets a little deeper and that might lower the pressure...

I saw that, but I’m wondering if they are taking seating depth into account. Their 77grain data states 23.2 max.

An 80eldm seating to AR depth (2.260”) would be compressed as hell. I’m seating closer to 2.500” and still jumping.

That is a good idea to seat a little deeper, I have plenty of room before I start compressing. I have seen speeds drop by increasing jump in past.

 

[CK1.0]

I saw that, but I’m wondering if they are taking seating depth into account. Their 77grain data states 23.2 max.

An 80eldm seating to AR depth (2.260”) would be compressed as hell. I’m seating closer to 2.500” and still jumping.

That is a good idea to seat a little deeper, I have plenty of room before I start compressing. I have seen speeds drop by increasing jump in past.

That's exactly what I was thinking... those 80's are long, but you should sill have plenty of room.

In fact, don't be more conservative than you need to, because if you find a nice wide jump range (~0.020-0.040" wide) where everything shoots, you might be able to park it and leave it there for pretty much the life of the barrel... or at least at lot longer than if one is kissing the lands.

I'm a convert to using bigger jumps. I'm jumping .100" in my 6CM and it's still shooting sub-moa at 1250yrds with 1800rds on it, and I'd try the same thing in 223 with a heavy bullet too.

If/when I put a 223 bolt-gun together I won't even bother testing anything closer than 0.060" off... YMMV

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I think that's a definite long shot. I don't think this has anything to do with that.

I had to look up what you were referencing: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...m-tactical-factory-loaded-ammunition.7086892/

On page 4 of that thread a dude calls BS on the OP and asks for a pic of the barrel and damage post-kaboom... and even though it seems as though the OP is a photographer or damn close (due to the quality of the previous pics he had posted), instead of posting a couple pics that could settle the argument and any/all doubt about his story in seconds... the OP says "fuck off", and then ghosts the thread for 2 months while it continues on without him.

Doesn't scan. Smells funny. Some people think they know it all, when in actuality they really only know enough to be dangerous. If I had to guess, that's what seems happened in that case to me.

Berger ended up sending the OP some boxes of replacement ammo and issuing a BOLO on a few lots of ammo that, AFAIK, no one else openly complained about having problems with.

Ok, maybe it is a long shot but there's plenty of combos that can result in high pressure , and just running with a new primer could definitely be what adds that extra to make a situation dangerous. Such as some moisture in the chamber for example.

Btw- molon has a lot of equipment to measure those things, and emptied each other cartridge to find some pretty significant differences in charges. You believe what you want, but that wasn't my point.

 

[MarkyMark007]

You have already established yourself as an idiot with zero credibility. No one should listen to you. On any topic.


Where's your data to make such a claim? Do you understand now?

i am wayy smarter than you. trust me. i can prove.

next question: how many people do you know, that with only changing primer their gun explode? and how many do you know when SAME load with different primers was NOT a problem at all? can you answer that or you will make the same stupid statement like in first answer?

 

[MarkyMark007]

Pressure spikes are not always predictable. Sometimes the difference between safe or not is the brand of primer, case length, crimp or a few thousands less jump to the lands.

Especialy for those running hotter loads, switching primers without backing off some and moving back up is poor advice.

of course they are not predictible. but like I said; how many people didnt have problems with SAME load and different primers? I will say ~all of us.

but I have presure spikes with different powder charge (and same primer) where I would never expect it. When I got heavy bolt lift, I load lower charge for next day; in 223REM for -1gr. but next day my primers were blown...
so I know, everything is possible.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Pressure is actually pretty damn predictable. At least within reason to know if you’re close to max pressure. There’s at least a few pieces of software that will get you close enough.

If you find yourself “suddenly” getting pressure signs you were already too close to max pressure to begin with or you haven’t been cleaning your barrel properly.

You should have already water tested the ammo anyway.


Of course there’s always an exception to everything. But generally speaking, anytime we ever pressure out unexpectedly, it’s almost always our fault.

 

[acudaowner]

all are good , all work fine run to the light



dam corporate America bad bad lol

 

[308pirate]

i am wayy smarter than you. trust me. i can prove.

You? The guy who argued with senior ZCO employees and told them they're lying when they said they have a factory in Austria?

YOU?

 

[lennyo3034]

Pressure is actually pretty damn predictable. At least within reason to know if you’re close to max pressure. There’s at least a few pieces of software that will get you close enough.

If you find yourself “suddenly” getting pressure signs you were already too close to max pressure to begin with or you haven’t been cleaning your barrel properly.

You should have already water tested the ammo anyway.


Of course there’s always an exception to everything. But generally speaking, anytime we ever pressure out unexpectedly, it’s almost always our fault.

So I'm not actually getting pressure signs. Primers still round and no cratering. I didn't do a specific water test, but I did shoot this load in heavy rain. Very minor flattening of primers. With the afformentioned federal lot.

That being said, the reason I made the thread is the velocities I'm getting seem really high.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I've never experienced a 100fps swing from just changing 205M to 450/41. I've even done the primer swap on almost the exact same load as OP. If you're way over pressure anything is possible but I don't think the issue is the primers alone.

 

[308pirate]

I've never experienced a 100fps swing from just changing 205M to 450/41.

Every single rifle is different. There are a lot of details that matter and that we don't know.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Every single rifle is different. There are a lot of details that matter and that we don't know.

Thank you for reiterating my post.

 

[Vodak]

I did a little bit of testing for a 20" AR with Varget, Hornady 75g's, Lake City brass, and CCI 450, Wolf SRP (KVB223), and Fed 205M's. My velocity's definitely showed differing averages through the powder charges with each of the three primers. With high/low for each charge range frequently flipping between them. For example max charge I loaded with each of 24.2g averaged- CCI 450 2717, Wolf SRP 2746, and Fed 205 2674.

 

[MarkyMark007]

Every single rifle is different. There are a lot of details that matter and that we don't know.

so your rifle explode when you swithed form BR4 to 450MAG ? goot to know!

try not to totaly embarrass yourself, you low IQ boy...

 

[Old Man with Gun]

so your rifle explode when you swithed form BR4 to 450MAG ? goot to know!

try not to totaly embarrass yourself, you low IQ boy...

I'd spell check before insulting others intelligence.

Just so you don't embarrass yourself.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

My first rule of too much pressure

Use light to medium loads that are accurate
If light to medium loads are not powerful enough…Get A Bigger Gun!

With today’s many cartridge / firearm options, loading right up to, or just a bit over max pressure just does not make sense.

If you can’t handle the bigger gun, may I suggest needle point.

(And use proper test procedures when changing loads, human components such as hands, eyes, brains are very difficult to replace) (and Damned expensive)

 

[Ravenworks]

Here's a little self-help reading.
The page has a pretty comprehensive inquiry on primers and should answer most questions

Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications

Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications

www.sksboards.com

 

[Baron23]

You? The guy who argued with senior ZCO employees and told them they're lying when they said they have a factory in Austria?

YOU?

hahaha.....yeah, I remember this tool shining his ass with ZCO as to where they produce their scopes.

And he's going to prove he's smarter than.....well, everybody? LOL

 

[Baron23]

Here's a little self-help reading.
The page has a pretty comprehensive inquiry on primers and should answer most questions

Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications

Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications

www.sksboards.com

Thank you....and if you look at the top right hand corner of the page you see print and it will print very nicely to a pdf to be saved off...which I did.

Cheer s

 

[TxWelder35]

80s at 2900 with a 24” barre doesn’t seem too outrageous to me.

23.5 8208 and a 77smk with a rem 7.5 or 450 gets me to 2750 in a 18” barrel in an AR. I would think 6 extra inches of barrel, seated longer, would buy you close to that in velocity.

If you aren’t getting pressure signs then

2800 seems slow to me in a 24” barrel anyway.

 

[308pirate]

so your rifle explode when you swithed form BR4 to 450MAG ? goot to know!

try not to totaly embarrass yourself, you low IQ boy...

Shut up, cunt