Fertilizer and GMO dumpster fire

[lariat]

This thread is for the discussion of fertilizers, GMO products and the Angel of Death. Porta John was about to go sideways and this COULD prove to be a pretty cool discussion. Maybe.

I’ll start with a question I have had for some time: a buddy of mine who worked in the area capturing, tagging and relocating sheep and elk talked about how much better those animals were in quality than in other places he had done similar work. I always wondered if it was the mineral content of the soil that found its way into the grass and water they ate. I ran an experiment a few years back and didn’t weed a couple of coastal pastures and found that the cattle actually did better. My assumption was that the weeds they were eating were able to pull in and utilize minerals that cows needed but the coastal wasn’t able to provide. So I still do this today. Anyone have any insight?

Yes, my cows had less adhd as a result too.

 

[Beefmanne]

The simple answer is that every area has a surplus/deficit of nutrients. Everything in the area adapts and moves on. For commercial production, all need nutrients are supplemented to maximize production.

 

[AllenOne1]

I've step in fertilizer a few times, cleaned out a chicken house once. I guess that probably makes me an expert.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

I don't think that what happens in the field/growing/harvesting that matters as much as what happens to the food before it hits the shelves. The processed foods that people eat with twenty plus FDA approved additives is more of an issue.
But that's my story

 

[nso123]

I don't think that what happens in the field/growing/harvesting that matters as much as what happens to the food before it hits the shelves. The processed foods that people eat with twenty plus FDA approved additives is more of an issue.
But that's my story

I will say that a doctor friend of mine told me that he thinks we have engineered ourselves into many of the food allergies and digestive issues that are out there. He used gluten for an example, saying that we have modified crops to grow faster and to different sizes so much that the crop is no longer similar to its original form. Of course, this was just an idea he had, but it kind of makes sense.

 

[Beefmanne]

I believe that many of the allergies we see is from living in almost sterile environments. Most people aren’t exposed to anything as children, ie dirt, and have never seen anything but concrete their entire life.

 

[lariat]

I believe that many of the allergies we see is from living in almost sterile environments. Most people aren’t exposed to anything as children, ie dirt, and have never seen anything but concrete their entire life.

There may be real truth in this.

 

[kvpm]

I don’t know if this is true or false, but it sure got me wondering.

 

[supercorndogs]

The rise in autism is a rise in diagnosis. Kids today are diagnosed with autism that would have never been diagnosed 10 years ago. Its also a quick ticket to free day care and a social security check.

If GMO crops cause internal inflammation its probably bad. We don't breed GMO. Selective breeding is not making GMO.

Fertilizer is kind of a band aide to cover the problems caused by too much soil disturbance.

 

[sea2summit]

The rise in autism is a rise in diagnosis. Kids today are diagnosed with autism that would have never been diagnosed 10 years ago. Its also a quick ticket to free day care and a social security check.

If GMO crops cause internal inflammation its probably bad. We don't breed GMO. Selective breeding is not making GMO.

Fertilizer is kind of a band aide to cover the problems caused by too much soil disturbance.

Over diagnosis perhaps….

 

[supercorndogs]

More or less. A rush to diagnose early too. But the behavior profile that is autism has become more broad. ITs not like autism is disease to something like that, where they give a blood test. A bunch of experts give a series of tests, and then all argue over the results, and best plan for treatment. Then they all have to write a plan. You ever listen to a bunch of people with doctorates try to write a goal for a 5 year old to learn to zip up his jacket on his own. "You put the pointy thing in the mechanism." Jesus you guys, you have the internet. ITs the box and the pin.

 

[Adam B]

The rise in autism is a rise in diagnosis. Kids today are diagnosed with autism that would have never been diagnosed 10 years ago. Its also a quick ticket to free day care and a social security check.

If GMO crops cause internal inflammation its probably bad. We don't breed GMO. Selective breeding is not making GMO.

Fertilizer is kind of a band aide to cover the problems caused by too much soil disturbance.

Sorry to argue but as a fourth-generation farmer, this is not correct
Fertilizer is kind of a band-aide to cover the problems caused by too much soil disturbance.
Corp rotation is key and checking your soil levels is what will make or break your crop yield. Fertilizer if used right will aid in your yield.

 

[supercorndogs]

Sorry to argue but as a fourth-generation farmer, this is not correct
Fertilizer is kind of a band-aide to cover the problems caused by too much soil disturbance.
Corp rotation is key and checking your soil levels is what will make or break your crop yield. Fertilizer if used right will aid in your yield.

Sorry, but it is.

 

[lariat]

Sorry to argue but as a fourth-generation farmer, this is not correct
Fertilizer is kind of a band-aide to cover the problems caused by too much soil disturbance.
Corp rotation is key and checking your soil levels is what will make or break your crop yield. Fertilizer if used right will aid in your yield.

Are you you saying that deep plowing is the cause for needing fertilizer?

 

[Adam B]

Are you you saying that deep plowing is the cause for needing fertilizer?

not at all, staving off compaction and doing crop rotation will aid in keeping the soil fertile

 

[Adam B]

every area has its own issues, we have property where we get crazy yields with our corn with no irrigation, and then we have other fields where we irrigate the shit out of it and don't come close

 

[Maggot]

The rise in autism is a rise in diagnosis. Kids today are diagnosed with autism that would have never been diagnosed 10 years ago. Its also a quick ticket to free day care and a social security check.

If GMO crops cause internal inflammation its probably bad. We don't breed GMO. Selective breeding is not making GMO.

Fertilizer is kind of a band aide to cover the problems caused by too much soil disturbance.

Yep. I read that when the first whites came to America there was on average 18" of good topsoil. Now, good luck finking a couple inches in most places...unless you bring it in.

Ive seen photos of South Texas aroud a town named Rocksprings,with miles of knee high grass and a huge old Live Oak every hundred yards or so. Lots of little bubbling springs. Then the ranchers came in with cattle and the cattle ate everything. When the cattle couldnt make a living any more they brought in sheep and goats. which grazed it to nothing. Then the prickly pear and cedar took over and nothing does very well. A large cedar evaporates up to 30 gallons of water a day. All the little springs dried up. Sad. They have found that by replanting the native grasses they can bring the land and springs back but its labor/cost intensive.

A lot of folks Pooh pooh organic foods, but I find that with organics I tend to eat less because by body knows when its had enough. With heavily fertilized crops I want more because the body know it may have bulk but not quality nutrition. I avoid GMO like the plague but it sneaks in anyway.

 

[JbBooks]

If we didn’t have fertilizer and genetically modified crops, they would still be raising 5 bushel wheat and bread would be 100 dollars a loaf! I completely agree with the allergy comment, that no one lets their kids get dirty, you know who don’t have weird ass food allergies? All of us that used horse shit as grenades as kids.

 

[Rthur]

Everybody that has actually done the job for at least 2 decades raise their .

R

 

[supercorndogs]

People are born with allergies, how does that play into the sterile environment idea? What if its a sign of a depleted immune system due to depleted gut biome?

 

[jhunter]

Anyone else notice whitetail antlers have grown substantially. A 125” whitetail was once a giant. Then came along round up ready soybeans and corn is sweeter than ever. Now 190” whitetails have become common

 

[supercorndogs]

Everybody that has actually done the job for at least 2 decades raise their .

R

Ma way is the only way......

Lets circle back on the same logic used in your post. How long have you been in a no till low till low fertilizer model? Have you explored or attempted alternative methods to make soil fertile? Why do you think you would be an expert on it?

 

[supercorndogs]

Anyone else notice whitetail antlers have grown substantially. A 125” whitetail was once a giant. Then came along round up ready soybeans and corn is sweeter than ever. Now 190” whitetails have become common

People literally put out supplements to grow antlers, raise deer in fences, and manage bucks for larger antlers. They didn't do that 30 years ago. People didn't pay 10k for set of antlers back then. I think you are fishing pretty deep for a correlation.

 

[Rthur]

Ma way is the only way......

Lets circle back on the same logic used in your post. How long have you been in a no till low till low fertilizer model? Have yu explored or attempted alternative methods to make soil fertile? Why do you think you would be an expert on it?

How many years have you ran a farm?
As in made all the finanicial decisions etc.

R

 

[supercorndogs]

I literally had what you would respond to me with typed out, and note not to waste your time. You don't know what you don't know, and i am not going to waste my time arguing with you about it. You think your method is the only one that works, that doesn't put you in any exclusive club.

I can't help but notice you dodged the question though.

 

[AllenOne1]

Anyone else notice whitetail antlers have grown substantially. A 125” whitetail was once a giant. Then came along round up ready soybeans and corn is sweeter than ever. Now 190” whitetails have become common

I think you might be full of fertilizer on this claim. Roundup ready soybeans were introduced in 1996.

These are the top Boone & Crocket records:
213 5/8 - 1993
206 1/8 - 1914
205 - 1971
204 4/8 - 1965
204 2/8 - 1967
204 2/8 - 2000
203 3/8 - 2003
202 6/8 - 1992
202 - 1918
201 4/8 - 1974
The list goes on of course.

You have any data to support your claim or is that just a personal observation in your area of operation?

 

[jhunter]

People literally put out supplements to grow antlers, raise deer in fences, and manage bucks for larger antlers. They didn't do that 30 years ago. People didn't pay 10k for set of antlers back then. I think you are fishing pretty deep for a correlation.

Public land is producing monsters without supplements or high game fences. Something has changed with whitetails over the past 30years and I don’t think deer management is responsible for these giant bucks. What are they putting in these supplements?

 

[theLBC]

 

[supercorndogs]

Statically with the ever increasing size of deer herds there should be more big bucks. Do you have some evidence they are a higher percentage of the population?

 

[Rthur]

I literally had what you would respond to me with typed out, and note not to waste your time. You don't know what you don't know, and i am not going to waste my time arguing with you about it. You think your method is the only one that works, that doesn't put you in any exclusive club.

I can't help but notice you dodged the question though.

You started the trend.
You haven't clue of all the different strategies that's have been tired in my direct neighborhood.
If you think you have reinvented the wheel go forth and make some Monsanto level monies.
Until your ass/family's ass is on the line it's all agronomist sheep skin bullshit.

R

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

If we didn’t have fertilizer and genetically modified crops, they would still be raising 5 bushel wheat and bread would be 100 dollars a loaf! I completely agree with the allergy comment, that no one lets their kids get dirty, you know who don’t have weird ass food allergies? All of us that used horse shit as grenades as kids.

 

[lariat]

Public land is producing monsters without supplements or high game fences. Something has changed with whitetails over the past 30years and I don’t think deer management is responsible for these giant bucks. What are they putting in these supplements?

Some of this may be due to harvest limits and restrictions based on antler size. More bucks with better genetics are allowed to grow and mature.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Yep. I read that when the first whites came to America there was on average 18" of good topsoil. Now, good luck finking a couple inches in most places...unless you bring it in.

Ive seen photos of South Texas aroud a town named Rocksprings,with miles of knee high grass and a huge old Live Oak every hundred yards or so. Lots of little bubbling springs. Then the ranchers came in with cattle and the cattle ate everything. When the cattle couldnt make a living any more they brought in sheep and goats. which grazed it to nothing. Then the prickly pear and cedar took over and nothing does very well. A large cedar evaporates up to 30 gallons of water a day. All the little springs dried up. Sad. They have found that by replanting the native grasses they can bring the land and springs back but its labor/cost intensive.

A lot of folks Pooh pooh organic foods, but I find that with organics I tend to eat less because by body knows when its had enough. With heavily fertilized crops I want more because the body know it may have bulk but not quality nutrition. I avoid GMO like the plague but it sneaks in anyway.

I have observed and studied the tall grass prairie from Kansas to Texas. I also tend to believe that the grass in Texas, while it is the same, must have been some what more fragile and the brush more invasive than the Flinthills of Kansas or Osage of Oklahoma. I think a big part of that tends to be the warmer temperatures with less freezing. There are some nice looking soils in north central Texas, but the environment makes it difficult for crops to consistently perform well.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

The whitetail was almost wiped out and then management brought it back to where they are a pest in many areas. Then figure in the boom of big rack bucks to boost the ego along with the rise of the market for hunting videos.

Some of this may be due to harvest limits and restrictions based on antler size. More bucks with better genetics are allowed to grow and mature.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

This thread is for the discussion of fertilizers, GMO products and the Angel of Death. Porta John was about to go sideways and this COULD prove to be a pretty cool discussion. Maybe.

I’ll start with a question I have had for some time: a buddy of mine who worked in the area capturing, tagging and relocating sheep and elk talked about how much better those animals were in quality than in other places he had done similar work. I always wondered if it was the mineral content of the soil that found its way into the grass and water they ate. I ran an experiment a few years back and didn’t weed a couple of coastal pastures and found that the cattle actually did better. My assumption was that the weeds they were eating were able to pull in and utilize minerals that cows needed but the coastal wasn’t able to provide. So I still do this today. Anyone have any insight?

Yes, my cows had less adhd as a result too.

While properly fertilized, coastal will make a ton of forage, but nutritionaly it is inferior. It has it's plus and minus compared to other forages. It has been proven that you don't bring cattle to the south east from Montana, Wyoming, etc. They will starve. Coastal just isn't nutritionaly very good. My point is that whatever weed was growing, at the right stage may have been better nutritionaly for the cow than straight coastal.

 

[Maggot]

Thats evil. The cigarette companies are muc the same.

 

[kvpm]

You started the trend.
You haven't clue of all the different strategies that's have been tired in my direct neighborhood.
If you think you have reinvented the wheel go forth and make some Monsanto level monies.
Until your ass/family's ass is on the line it's all agronomist sheep skin bullshit.

R

Just because I’m a 4th generation farmer doesn’t mean I’m an expert on every product I use.

Most farmers I know are either too busy running their business or bullshitting at the local diner to independently research every product they use to the point they are experts. Most just rely on the manufacturer’s data, or think as long as its legal to purchase, it has to be safe. Surely the government would make a product illegal if it wasn’t safe, right? Surely the manufacturer wouldn’t withhold critical information on their best selling product, right?

I understand Monsanto’s products help farmers bring home the bacon. That’s the point of running a business... to make profit. But providing for one’s family via agriculture has nothing to do with being an expert on the potential long term effects of using various products on crops.

Go ask your local concrete contractor to explain the full chemical process concrete undergoes during hydration. Or ask him to explain alkali-silica reactivity. His response will be, “Dude... I don’t fucking know. I just pour the shit.”

 

[acttacus]

• In the US, ag crops are primarily bred for high productivity, long shelf-life, and appearance. Less effort is placed on nutritional value and flavor.
• The faster the crops grow, the more nutrients they require, hence a need for supplement fertilizers. Crops rotation fixes this to some extent, by allowing time for the soil to replenish what has been depleted.
• Increased allergy is due to a lack of exposure to allergens in newborns and infants (when the immune response is in hyperdrive).
• Organic crops are a marketing hoax.
• Monsanto's Bt and Ht crops are proven tech that works well. However, I disagree with the way they run their business (another topic).

 

[Maggot]

• In the US, ag crops are primarily bred for high productivity, long shelf-life, and appearance. Less effort is placed on nutritional value and flavor.
• The faster the crops grow, the more nutrients they require, hence a need for supplement fertilizers. Crops rotation fixes this to some extent, by allowing time for the soil to replenish what has been depleted.
• Increased allergy is due to a lack of exposure to allergens in newborns and infants (when the immune response is in hyperdrive).
• Organic crops are a marketing hoax.
• Monsanto's Bt and Ht crops are proven tech that works well. However, I disagree with the way they run their business (another topic).

• Organic crops are a marketing hoax.

Absolute bullshit. I cant address the 'marketing' but organic foods are without question more nutritional and better for the body.

 

[lariat]

• Organic crops are a marketing hoax.

Absolute bullshit. I cant address the 'marketing' but organic foods are without question more nutritional and better for the body.

Why do you think that is? Because of what isn’t in them or what is? What is it in your opinion that organic farming practices do to make a better product? Serious question, no bait.

 

[Beefmanne]

• Organic crops are a marketing hoax.

Absolute bullshit. I cant address the 'marketing' but organic foods are without question more nutritional and better for the body.

This is why I’m against recreational marijuana.

 

[Maggot]

This is why I’m against recreational marijuana.

Perhaps you should try it, and stop being an ignorant tool?

 

[Beefmanne]

Keep on with your hippie, tree hugging bullshit. I love it.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Why do you think that is? Because of what isn’t in them or what is? What is it in your opinion that organic farming practices do to make a better product? Serious question, no bait.

All I will say at the moment......if I went organic, I hope for the consumers sake that they develope a taste for pig weeds and expect to get rations like Somolians. All the while we are tilling up saved moisture and watching the sky turn dark with dirt like in the 30's. Especially in places where there is no irrigation and rainfall patterns swing wildly from extreme drought trends to flooding trends.

 

[Maggot]

Why do you think that is? Because of what isn’t in them or what is? What is it in your opinion that organic farming practices do to make a better product? Serious question, no bait.

Fair enough.

Some of both, more nutrients, less toxins like cadmium. See article at the bottom.

Im not a chemist ,nor nutritionist, so I cant give you a scientific answer, but Im sure there are studies available, Ill take a look. Pert my basic understanding, nitrogen makes a lot of foliage, a big plant, but doesnt convey to the plant many of the essential minerals and other substances that our body needs.

I can only give my personal experience.

I grew up on a farm and most of what we ate was raised at home. Not all 100% organic, but from good rich soil, little fertilizer was used. I rarely got sick, always felt nourished. Then after I left home I didnt eat so well, lots of fast and canned foods. so Id eat more trying to satisfy that need. I got sick and just never felt as good.

A number of years ago I started working my way back to organic foods and that began to reverse. What I find is that I need to eat less and feel more full and satisfied with less. I rarely get sick and have a lot more energy, even at 72. Thats the only real change that would account for it. On a slightly different note, I do find as I age that I need more protein. As I understand it your body doesnt convert things as well.

Thats my take, and I can only speak of that which I personally experienced. Im sure some here will scorn that, saying its only 'subjective' and not scientifically verifiable. I could care less, it works for me. For someone to say otherwise, is like someone saying "I dont feel well today." and another sayin "Yes you do, its all subjective." To me thats the height of arrogance. Im sure those individuals know far more than the Mayo Clinic, see below.

www.mayoclinic.org › organic-food › art-20043880Organic foods: Are they safer? More nutritious? - Mayo Clinic​

 

[Maggot]

Keep on with your hippie, tree hugging bullshit. I love it.

If you had a mind that could think and reason, rather than regurgitate what its been fed by others even more ignorant, might be take your foolishness with more than a nano grain of salt.. Considering the source and depth of your ignorance, you're laughable. Grow up, learn to think outside your very small box.

 

[Maggot]

Why do you think that is? Because of what isn’t in them or what is? What is it in your opinion that organic farming practices do to make a better product? Serious question, no bait.

Too follow up, Im quite aware that fertilizer allows for a lot more lbs per acre than organic farming, or at least ti seems that way on the surface. Lets look at it from a different perspective, follow two possible time lines.

1- Ten thousand? years ago when man adopted agriculture, the land was virgin and un disturbed, it was 'organic' so to speak. It supported the population. then populations grew, and we need more food, the land was over farmed and became depleted.. Eventually populations reached near where we are today, and it became necessary to add nitrogen to get enough food to feed the population. Those nitrates ran off the land and caused problems in the water etc.

2-People had innate wisdom to keep populations small so that they could live by sustainable agriculture and didnt need to add nitrogen and other potentially things (pesticides).

Just a thought.

Something Ive learned in 72 years, is every action has an equal opposite reaction...you reap what you sow. All our actions have consequences and you may cheat that for awhile, but sooner or later you have to pay the bill. also that the more options you [rovide yourself, generally the better the outcome.

YMMV.

 

[Mwalex]

The concern about GMO crops has been overblown by groups with agendas and an uneducated/stupid populace. America's issue is obesity and not GMO crops. A comment that selective breeding is not the same as GMO, well, that is completely incorrect. They differ by one occurring in a lab and the other in a field. ANY trait can be developed in a field with enough time.

As a question - how many people in the world have died from GMO foods and how many have starved to death?

The only way to feed the current global population is through GMO crops. The cost of food has been kept manageable, even in the US, by GMO crops. Groups that push organic farming, in a sense, are nationalistic and have no concerns about people outside the US starving.

 

[The King]

The simple way to go all organic with farming is to shoot every other person in the USA, men/women/children. If you did so, we could sustain all organic farming.

 

[lariat]

See now, this thread is starting to head in the dark direction I thought it might but kinda hoped it didn’t. The last few posts are now in the Bill Gates camp - there are too many humans to feed on a sustainable basis. If organic cant feed us and inorganic can but comes with a price tag, what to do?

So do we allow for GMOs and three-eyed fish and red tide from fertilizer runoff or do we allow for a population reduction and the corresponding reduction in technological advancement (fewer brains = fewer monkeys manning the typewriters)?

And I’m not eating bugs anymore so you can go somewhere else with your crickets and ants. I also swing both ways - I do both organic and chemical.