Rifle Scopes FFP For quick target acquisition and rapid tracking across a wide distance??

[RMS65]

Some of you will be sick of me with lots of my stupid newbie questions. So I have a 6.5 creedmore Varmint bolt gun coming. I plan on using it 250 to 500 yards for Coyotes. If I botch the first shot I'll have too track a running dog moving hundreds of yards further away. The coyote will probably hit the woods at 550 but it may go out 700 or 800 yards. In any event I'll probably only be able to get off two maybe three shots off. I'm used to shooting fixed targets at fixed distances with plenty of time to work out math. Because of that I'm used to second focal plane scopes. I'm thinking a FFP is in order. This way no matter where the scope magnification is set when the shooting starts ill know what each hash mark is worth as the dog moves through known distant landmarks,

I'm thinking something in the order of 2-10 to 3-14 to keep a wide field of view. I'm open to suggestions,

 

[NewsShooter]

3.3-18 Burris XTRIII, Eurooptic has a good price on them.

 

[RMS65]

3.3-18 Burris XTRIII, Eurooptic has a good price on them.

Thanks. Looks good but it's about twice my budget

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I took a quick look at the 3.3-18 Burris XTRIII offerings at EuroOptic. Looks like they're on sale for $1000. You state that's about double your budget. Ok, you might look at the Athlon Midas Tac 6-24x50, which is just over $500. I strongly suggest you CALL @gr8fuldoug at CameralandNY about this optic and tell him you had it suggested to you on Snipers Hide. Doug is a supporting vendor here and a great guy. He might have other suggestions, but it looks like you can get the scope and a set of rings on sale for $520 right now. I looked through one of these scopes a few years ago... it was fine for a $500 optic but I have no idea how well it will actually perform in terms of tracking and low-light/challenging-light conditions.

Regarding followup shots on a running coyote at 500+ yards: wow. I know plenty of people who could hit the vitals of a stationary, broadside coyote at 500 and would confidently take the shot myself from a solid prone or similarly-supported position. I know quite a few people who can quite consistently hit an 18-inch-wide moving target at 500-700 - I can even do it myself about half the time (moving targets aren't all that uncommon at PRS matches). But to hit those movers, these expert shooters know the speed of and distance to the target so they get a near-perfect lead from their ballistic solvers.

I've shot with some nationally-recognized experts... and my guess is that they would say the idea of hitting a running, unknown-speed, estimated/changing distance, dog-vitals-sized target at 500+ yards is right up there with winning the powerball grand prize. Pure and simple, an FFP scope is not going to do you a bit of good beyond giving you a slightly more informed best guess.

Good luck.

 

[RMS65]

I took a quick look at the 3.3-18 Burris XTRIII offerings at EuroOptic. Looks like they're on sale for $1000. You state that's about double your budget. Ok, you might look at the Athlon Midas Tac 6-24x50, which is just over $500. I strongly suggest you CALL @gr8fuldoug at CameralandNY about this optic and tell him you had it suggested to you on Snipers Hide. Doug is a supporting vendor here and a great guy. He might have other suggestions, but it looks like you can get the scope and a set of rings on sale for $520 right now. I looked through one of these scopes a few years ago... it was fine for a $500 optic but I have no idea how well it will actually perform in terms of tracking and low-light/challenging-light conditions.

Regarding followup shots on a running coyote at 500+ yards: wow. I know plenty of people who could hit the vitals of a stationary, broadside coyote at 500 and would confidently take the shot myself from a solid prone or similarly-supported position. I know quite a few people who can quite consistently hit an 18-inch-wide moving target at 500-700 - I can even do it myself about half the time (moving targets aren't all that uncommon at PRS matches). But to hit those movers, these expert shooters know the speed of and distance to the target so they get a near-perfect lead from their ballistic solvers.

I've shot with some nationally-recognized experts... and my guess is that they would say the idea of hitting a running, unknown-speed, estimated/changing distance, dog-vitals-sized target at 500+ yards is right up there with winning the powerball grand prize. Pure and simple, an FFP scope is not going to do you a bit of good beyond giving you a slightly more informed best guess.

Good luck.

Thank you. Lot's of good information there. I'm hoping to practice more so I can make a clean ethical kill on the first shot but once it's running I'm just trying to hit the coyote anywhere. Frankly killing them cleanly isn’t a priority around here. I live in a very rural area were they destroy wildlife and farm animals. They keep my dogs barking all night which isn't peaceful. Seeing them in broad daylight now indicates to me their numbers are increasing past their normal food supply and need thinning. I'm considering getting a thermal and going to town on them at night.

 

[RMS65]

I took a quick look at the 3.3-18 Burris XTRIII offerings at EuroOptic. Looks like they're on sale for $1000. You state that's about double your budget. Ok, you might look at the Athlon Midas Tac 6-24x50, which is just over $500. I strongly suggest you CALL @gr8fuldoug at CameralandNY about this optic and tell him you had it suggested to you on Snipers Hide. Doug is a supporting vendor here and a great guy. He might have other suggestions, but it looks like you can get the scope and a set of rings on sale for $520 right now. I looked through one of these scopes a few years ago... it was fine for a $500 optic but I have no idea how well it will actually perform in terms of tracking and low-light/challenging-light conditions.

Regarding followup shots on a running coyote at 500+ yards: wow. I know plenty of people who could hit the vitals of a stationary, broadside coyote at 500 and would confidently take the shot myself from a solid prone or similarly-supported position. I know quite a few people who can quite consistently hit an 18-inch-wide moving target at 500-700 - I can even do it myself about half the time (moving targets aren't all that uncommon at PRS matches). But to hit those movers, these expert shooters know the speed of and distance to the target so they get a near-perfect lead from their ballistic solvers.

I've shot with some nationally-recognized experts... and my guess is that they would say the idea of hitting a running, unknown-speed, estimated/changing distance, dog-vitals-sized target at 500+ yards is right up there with winning the powerball grand prize. Pure and simple, an FFP scope is not going to do you a bit of good beyond giving you a slightly more informed best guess.

Good luck.

I didn't see the $1000 sale price. I saw it at $1500 somewhere else. My bad for not checking EuroOptic. My budget is half the $1500.

Oh and thank you for a polite informative response. My neophyte skills and questions are often mocked with insults. Meanwhile I'm just here to learn.
Be well
Ron

 

[37L1]

You will be wasting ammo trying to hit a coyote running full tilt at 500 + yards with a bolt gun. If you ever do, it will be pure luck. It's almost impossible even with a semi-auto. Save your ammo, wait for next time.

A FFP scope expands the reticle with magnification narrowing your FOV the higher you go. At the lowest magnification, which gives you the largest FOV, a FFP reticle is really small. A SFP reticle stays the same size no matter the magnification, at low magnification you have a large FOV and a usable reticle.

When I coyote hunt I usually have my SFP scope set on the lowest setting just so I can track the animal and see it stop or slow for the shot (or watch it disappear behind brush or go in the woods, eh, it happens). Around here, shots beyond 200 yards are rare anyway. Now if you have wide open spaces and long shots are the norm, a FFP on high setting when the target isn't moving, would be a good option. But a missed shot at long distance will probably be your only shot, unless you've got a stupid coyote.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Thank you. Lot's of good information there. I'm hoping to practice more so I can make a clean ethical kill on the first shot but once it's running I'm just trying to hit the coyote anywhere. Frankly killing them cleanly isn’t a priority around here. I live in a very rural area were they destroy wildlife and farm animals. They keep my dogs barking all night which isn't peaceful. Seeing them in broad daylight now indicates to me their numbers are increasing past their normal food supply and need thinning. I'm considering getting a thermal and going to town on them at night.

I appreciate your taking the time to specify "clean ethical kill." I quit hunting years ago, as have quite a few of the guys I used to hunt with (those still on the sunny side of the ground). We'd rather just watch 'em fly or mosey around. I realized 30+ years ago that it was the shooting skill, not the hunt, that appealed to me, and I could shoot a whole lot more clay or steel targets than feathered/furry ones.

I do understand the nuisance factor. The only animals I ever killed and left on the ground were groundhogs... and, while down-east farmers hated them, they were nowhere near as destructive as the feral hogs whose populations have exploded in the eastern quarter of my state (NC).

I didn't see the $1000 sale price. I saw it at $1500 somewhere else. My bad for not checking EuroOptic. My budget is half the $1500.

Oh and thank you for a polite informative response. My neophyte skills and questions are often mocked with insults. Meanwhile I'm just here to learn.
Be well
Ron

I didn't take time to figure out how many variations of that scope are offered, so neither of us is completely right/"wrong."

If there's one thing I enjoy as much as "doing" shooting and competing, it's teaching shooting and competing. I'm too old and slow to get near the leaderboards in PRS now, but I'm retired and shoot once or twice a week. I encounter a lot of newbies. Some are interested in growing their long-range skills with heavy, built-for-purpose rifles and optics. Others just want to sight in their hunting rifles and view the monster, expensive precision rifles as curiosities outside their interests.

To each his own... but most of the hunters show up with ok rifles and cheap optics with simple crosshair or duplex reticles. Gear which is perfectly adequate to nail deer out to 200-250 yards. But when they start talking about wanting to make shots on deer at 500 yards or more while wanting nothing to do with learning how to range targets and use a ballistic calculator to competently put rounds on target... maybe I've just gone too deep in the weeds.

I'm sorry you're getting bs responses to newbie questions. There's a gold mine of info here on SH. If you are not aware of it, the online training is excellent. Pay the $20 a month (I think that's still the price) for the subscription as long as you're getting benefit, then stop it.

Again, good luck and enjoy the ride.

 

[RMS65]

You will be wasting ammo trying to hit a coyote running full tilt at 500 + yards with a bolt gun. If you ever do, it will be pure luck. It's almost impossible even with a semi-auto. Save your ammo, wait for next time.

A FFP scope expands the reticle with magnification narrowing your FOV the higher you go. At the lowest magnification, which gives you the largest FOV, a FFP reticle is really small. A SFP reticle stays the same size no matter the magnification, at low magnification you have a large FOV and a usable reticle.

When I coyote hunt I usually have my SFP scope set on the lowest setting just so I can track the animal and see it stop or slow for the shot (or watch it disappear behind brush or go in the woods, eh, it happens). Around here, shots beyond 200 yards are rare anyway. Now if you have wide open spaces and long shots are the norm, a FFP on high setting when the target isn't moving, would be a good option. But a missed shot at long distance will probably be your only shot, unless you've got a stupid coyote.

Thanks I understand about the FFP reticle changing sizes with magnification. My 223 bolt gun currently has a SFP 6-24. I practice shooting at 18x but I find it easier to locate targets at lower magnification. If pressed to take the shot immediately (because the dog stops or starts moving away) I don't know what hold over to use at that lower power because the SFP reticle value is now different from my practice values. It's impossible to for me to learn all the hold over values for every magnification. I thought a FFP would make learning my holdovers at various parts of the field easier. It's a huge field having it all mentally ranged is already a big ask.

Be well
Ron

 

[37L1]

I use a range finder to note objects at various distances after set up. We hunt different places but repeat them on occasion. You can remember these objects and what the holdovers should be if you know what your rifle does at those distances. I also have a dope card placed inside my scope objective flip cover that will tell me what elevation I may need if I need a reminder. I'm old and forget stuff. I hardly ever use my reticle to range distances. I don't miss many and it usually isn't because I ranged elevation incorrectly. (I also don't take 500 yard shots, so there's that).

You say it's a huge field, am I wrong to assume you hunt the same place? If so, even easier. You're probably already aware of what your target's favored approach may be from past history; that also is a plus for your set up and ranging.

Good hunting.

 

[RMS65]

I use a range finder to note objects at various distances after set up. We hunt different places but repeat them on occasion. You can remember these objects and what the holdovers should be if you know what your rifle does at those distances.

You say it's a huge field, am I wrong to assume you hunt the same place? If so, even easier. You're probably already aware of what your target's favored approach may be from past history; that also is a plus for your set up and ranging.

As for favored target approaches. In the last nine months I've only seen 4 Coyotes in daylight and none were in the same spot or coming or going the same way. They're more a coincidence than a regular occasion. I did see two of them this past week a day apart.

I have plates set up at 160, 320 and a milk jug at 435. The milk jug is about halfway across the field. My cheap range finder gets sketchy around 500. There plenty of visible field further than that clockwise from NW to due East.

I do know approximate distances of some landmarks inside of 500 yards. Besides not knowing the exact distance beyond that I doubt both skills and the effectiveness of a 223 at those ranges. I have a lot to learn but I gotta start somewhere. Luckily I have the ability to practice from the comfort of home anytime I want.

 

[37L1]

As for favored target approaches. In the last nine months I've only seen 4 Coyotes in daylight and none were in the same spot or coming or going the same way. They're more a coincidence than a regular occasion. I did see two of them this past week a day apart.

I have plates set up at 160, 320 and a milk jug at 435. The milk jug is about halfway across the field. My cheap range finder gets sketchy around 500. There plenty of visible field further than that clockwise from NW to due East.

I do know approximate distances of some landmarks inside of 500 yards. Besides not knowing the exact distance beyond that I doubt both skills and the effectiveness of a 223 at those ranges. I have a lot to learn but I gotta start somewhere. Luckily I have the ability to practice from the comfort of home anytime I want.

That is awesome!

 

[stemikel]

As for favored target approaches. In the last nine months I've only seen 4 Coyotes in daylight and none were in the same spot or coming or going the same way. They're more a coincidence than a regular occasion. I did see two of them this past week a day apart.

I have plates set up at 160, 320 and a milk jug at 435. The milk jug is about halfway across the field. My cheap range finder gets sketchy around 500. There plenty of visible field further than that clockwise from NW to due East.

I do know approximate distances of some landmarks inside of 500 yards. Besides not knowing the exact distance beyond that I doubt both skills and the effectiveness of a 223 at those ranges. I have a lot to learn but I gotta start somewhere. Luckily I have the ability to practice from the comfort of home anytime I want.

Not to derail the thread- but you should post those pix in the ‘What’s my View” thread in the Bear Pit.

 

[RMS65]

Today idid some practice. I smacked the 6"plate at 320 with the 223 Tikka Varmint high right. I moved to my 435 milk jug and popped it on the second shot. Wind was a shifting 11 mph. From 200°-270°.

I was happier to go four for four at the 6" 320 yard plate with my 223 Howa Mini Action light weight at. It only has a 2-7 Hawke Vantage with a 30/30 reticle. I love this gun!

I know none of this will impress anyone here so I kept this to my thread. I'm still happy with this.

My 6.5 CM Tikka will probably be here Monday. I'll try stretching that out further.

Be well All

 

[fdkay]

You're not wrong for looking to a FFP scope.
Your budget typically says China. With FFP on a hunting scope, illumination is mandatory.
When it comes to Chinese made scopes, I think Athlon does the best job with managing cost while giving you a good product. Athlon makes a 2.5-15 that is just out of your price range but would be worthwhile saving up a bit more.
On the other hand, there is the old Philippine standby from burris. On sale and on budget.
They can sometimes be hit or miss on the glass but the 3-15 is pretty damn good.

Burris Xtreme Tactical XTR II 3-15x50 SCR Mil Scope 201031

Burris Xtreme Tactical XTR II 3-15x50 SCR Mil Scope 201031 | Only at EuroOptic.com!

www.eurooptic.com

 

[RMS65]

You're not wrong for looking to a FFP scope.
Your budget typically says China. With FFP on a hunting scope, illumination is mandatory.
When it comes to Chinese made scopes, I think Athlon does the best job with managing cost while giving you a good product. Athlon makes a 2.5-15 that is just out of your price range but would be worthwhile saving up a bit more.
On the other hand, there is the old Philippine standby from burris. On sale and on budget.
They can sometimes be hit or miss on the glass but the 3-15 is pretty damn good.

Burris Xtreme Tactical XTR II 3-15x50 SCR Mil Scope 201031

Burris Xtreme Tactical XTR II 3-15x50 SCR Mil Scope 201031 | Only at EuroOptic.com!

www.eurooptic.com

Thanks I'm looking really hard at that one

 

[RMS65]

The wind died before dark and rattled off more hits at 320 and blew up another milk jug at 435 on the first shot.
I can't wait for the 6.5 to get here.