Rifle Scopes FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

R

Rafael

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 26, 2003
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Virginia Beach, Virginia
#1
Would anyone besides me be interested in a USO variable power scope with an FFP ranging reticle that allows you to have a fixed cross-hair/aiming point? By this, I mean that the aiming point does not shrink or grow with a change in power setting.

I have been discussing this idea with JBW# 3, our resident USO guru, and he has not "yet" been discouraged by the idea.
laugh.gif


JBW# 3;
Thanks for working with me through the discussion that has so far been only in PM's.
I appreciate the time you have spent with your future customer. You are a good guy.

If anyone thinks this idea has more validity than a flying-Pig, please make it known.
My only interest is in purchasing a USO scope, one, that will meet my wants.
If anyone else can gain from this, even better.

Thanks.
______________________________________
Update: Latest reticle drawings here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...8475#Post388475
 
#2
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I don't get it, isn't the point of ffp reticle so that they do change in order to range. Aiming point not shrink or grow? Would this be a rectile hybrid of sorts?
 
#3
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Kind of like the Shephard scopes? The ranging portion of the reticle would hold the same value and would increase ot decrease but the actual aiming portion of the reticle remains the same?

If that is the case I think it is an EXCELLENT idea. Both first and second focal plane ability. The downside to that is the fact that in tactical shooting sometimes you need to be able to increase your field of view and still a valid aiming referrence.
 
#4
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Yes, montana.
The ranging marks would change with a change in power settings, you are correct.

But...
What if you could have the ranging marks moving along a fixed size cross-hair. The cross-hair would be a simple fine line or duplex reticle like one would find in SFP scopes, and it size would not change.

Only the ranging "tick" marks would move...to stay true to the MOA or Mil system they are designed for. They would be correct at all powers as USO's reticles are now.
 
#6
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Just feeling out the idea with people who are more knowledgeable than I am.

If its crap, thats okay too.
If its worth anything, I will go ahead and post everything I have on the idea.
Others have helped with the idea, and I dont consider it secret or exclusive.
 
#7
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

That sounds like a hell of an idea. But you would have to work it so that at low power the tic marks didn't bunch up onto the base cross hair. The (new) MP8 style center dot would be sweet like this.
Justin
 
#9
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I like it. Keep that center cross hair nice and fine and have ffp for ranging.
I also like your design above. just put the fine marking on the inner section and number at 10 moa, 20 moa....
The fine on only one side of the line, keeps it simple at a glance.

edit
noticed Justin's point above. Keep the center from clutering up at low powers. keep it the way you got it. Just add some numbers
 
#10
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Do not forget that one of the main uses of FFP reticle features is for elevation and windage (for wind or movers) hold-off at any power setting.. not just ranging.

The 1/8th inch @ 100 yard wide S&B Fine P4 reticle lines are still visible at 3x, and fine enough at 12x to shoot smaller than 1 MOA targets.
 
#11
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Thanks, Montana.

Another member here, doc76251, came up with the idea of leaving the center less cluttered.
If one needed to range a target to finer than, in this case 2moa, one could always use the outer 1moa marks. Leaves the aiming point much cleaner.

I like the idea.
 
#12
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Yes, Zak, I agree that is important.
You can still use the marks as holdovers or hold-off's.

The one negative the shooter will have to keep in mind is that the thickness of the cross-hairs is not a constant, in MOA or mils or any other angular measurement. It is only an "apparent" constant.
 
#14
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I think it's brilliant ... all you have to do is remember to NOT use the SFP crosshair for ranging ... that's simple enough ...

and to take it one step further, you COULD add a thicker portion of the plex to the FFP reticle, let's say, from the 2MOA mark on out in all directions ... so that you'd have yet another portion of the FFP reticle to range with, but it would still always leave the inner-most 2MOA clean and fine, with no changing thickness of the actual aimpoint ...

Raf ... I think you're onto something good ...
 
#15
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Thanks, gents.
I appreciate the input, good or bad.
I keep wondering when someone will stumble across a fatal flaw in the idea.
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WGM;
Yes. You can still use the centerline as a ranging reference, but must remember the thickness is not correct.

Doc76251 has been playing with your idea, sort of.
Will be posting some of the pics he modified...over the next few days. Or...maybe he will post them?
laugh.gif
 
#16
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I think it would be great, but also you would have to watch the 2nd FP reticle thickness so that as the FFP reticle tic marks got smaller as you dialed down the power, they (tic marks) wouldn't be blocked out by the SFP which of course would stay the same size. One way to do that would be to only put a floating dot like the IOR MP8 or a floating crosshair (like the P4?) for the SFP. You could add thick outer lines to help draw the eye to the center.
Justin
 
#17
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I just thought of something. Isn't an erector tube similar (roughly) to a teeter-totter? i.e. For a SFP scope the reticle is near the eye, but the erector tube extends to the adjustment knobs, but there is a fulcrum in there (where the eyepiece screws onto the tube) so that if the knobs push the tube down, it actually raises the recticle up. Whereas in a FFP, the reticle is right under the adjustments so when the knobs push the tube down, the reticle goes down? Anyone...
 
#18
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Justin;
The floating crosshair was my first idea, with the FFP coming in around it.

The FFP acted as the outer reticle to draw your eye towards the center.

Will post some of the different reticles we have been playing with, probably tomorrow.

I am not up on the theory behind the reticles moving together. Maybe JBW will chime in on this. I got the impression it would work just fine, but the SFP reticle would have to be aligned to the FFP reticle during assembly.

Of course, none have been built.
Its just an idea right now.
 
#19
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

So, two reticles moved by one erector or two?

How does the ocular focus on two reticles at the same time in different planes without an additional layer of correction between the two?

I've got no issues with the "what" - but the "how" is perplexing.
 
#21
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Check out Shepard's scopes. I think its a great idea, but i have a hard enough time keeping a single reticle (however ya spell it) scope working. For me more moving parts = not good.

Maybe we could talk them into a retical that has the illumination like the new MOA retical, but no illumination in the center. When i shoot in low light i turn down the power to get in more light and this would make the center "un lit" section seem very very small. Everything else would still be lit up, just not a 1 moa wide (or so) spot in the very center of the x hairs.
 
#24
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

NineHotel ... The FFP reticle will always be in focus, as long as the target image is in focus, because (from an optical standpoint) the FFP reticle is in the same image plane as the projected target image ... This is true of all FFP reticles, I think. Now, using a Leupold scope as an example, the SFP reticle would be subject to focusing via the diopter adjustment on the ocular, so that you can set that reticle to be in focus with the FFP/Target image ...

actually, I have to admit that I'm not an optics expert, and my above assumption could be wrong ... but that's what I've been led to believe about SFP and FFP reticles, independently ...

and as to the issue of keeping them both aligned to one another when you dial in windage/elevation, I think that's something that could be attained as long as both reticles are contained within the erector mechanism ... This way, you can think of it as a scope within a scope ... where the far end of the erector would be the objective, and the near end would be the ocular ... since they are in the same tube, no matter which direction the tube points, when you look thru it, both reticles are always in the same place/position relative to each other ... or something like that ... It's just that the actual "erector lens" would be set between the two reticles, so that the image of the FFP reticle would magnifiy with the target image when you zoom ...
 
#25
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Do remember, I am just a customer with a request.
No different than you ordering a USO in bright Yellow paint.
laugh.gif


USO is, and will be, the final authority.
In the end...the answer may be "No" or, cant be done.

If nothing comes of this, I will at least know more than I did before he was kind enough to discuss it with me.

The fact that he spent time with the discussion makes me want to give him my business, no matter the outcome of this.
 
#26
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Sure the very center .5mill or 1moa wide/tall (or their abouts) un lit. You could easily shoot the day time precision targets with a fine center x hair. A 1moa or .5mill hole in the center of your lit hairs would allow you to see your target (crazy i know) and the light around the edges would be more than enough to locate your retical.

Sorry didnt mean to distract from the original topic. One thing to keep in mind when designing a reticle are patents. seems like everyone was the first to make a mill dot.. I know I have seen Shepard's patent# somewhere in their literature. maybe not? I dont know of anyone else offering both 1st and 2nd plane reticles though
wink.gif
 
#27
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Heatseekins;
How to light the reticle is a valid point, not off topic at all. The dual-plane reticle lends itself to some interesting choices since the reticle is split up. Then again, it could also make this more difficult. It may even rule out a lit reticle for all I know.

In my opinion, anything reticle related is "on topic"....unless this turns into another battle of the wits, or "lack of". I hope this thread does not go that way. You know what I mean.
laugh.gif
 
#28
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Guys,
I am fairly certain that Zeiss makes a whole line of hunting scopes based on this idea. I don't recall which models exactly.
However, since they seem to be able to get it to work in the real world & stay solvent [knock on wood], then likely the idea's viable.
 
#29
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I have yet to see a ret on top of ret idea. Everything that I have seen that was both had a crosshair in the SFP and circles or some other ranging portion in the FFP.
 
#30
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I have also wondered about this idea. I would give it a wirl in my next scope if USO offered it as an option.

This might not fly with others but I have also "pondered" the concepts of having the hash marks or tics larger and not set "on center". I believe this could provide a better point of aim on smaller targets but would require the shooter to hold to the left or right edge of the mark depending on how the reticle was calibrated.
 
#31
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Hey all,

Raf asked me what I thought about his idea, after a few hours of thinking about why it wouldn't work I finaly got my head outside the box and tried to figure a way that it would work.

This is what I came up with.

The first picture is what it would appear like at low power.
c3f5f1ce.jpg


The second picture is what it would look like at high power. Fixed the picture
laugh.gif

49c7449f.jpg


The cross hair would remain the same size while the stadia marks would get larger and smaller. IMHO very handy in low light situations where you dial down the power. On FFP scopes the cross hair dissapears, this one wouldn't. The trick will be in making the SFP reticle small enough so that it won't obscure a small target at highpower and yet not so big that it covers the stadia marks at low power.

It will be an interesting bit of engeneering for John. I'm thinking a lens sandwich in the erector assembly.

The numbers running down the upper verticle leg of the drawings are another neat idea Raf had. They would be engraved on the FFP lense and as you dialed on the power they would fade out. It would give a graphic representation of where you were at in the power range w/o looking at the power ring. Don't know how it would need to be engineered but I think that is a great idea.

I personal dislike all the clutter around the center of the cross hair. However I know the need for having them for doing holds and leads for movers. I put one line in at 5 MOA and another in at 7.5. I think that should be enough to get the job don and or provide reference to make a good hold.

What do you guys think?

Cheers :beer:
 
#32
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Thanks for getting in here, Doc.
Every time you look at a drawing, you seem to have another idea to add to it.
I like the clean center too.

Obviously, the above drawing is an just an example, the cross-hair is thicker than anyone would want.

Since the SFP cross-hair is a separate reticle mask, its possible to create FFP and SFP reticles of different thicknesses and let the buyer mix and match to suit his/her needs.
 
#33
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">Since the SFP cross-hair is a separate reticle mask, its possible to create FFP and SFP reticles of different thicknesses and let the buyer mix and match to suit his/her needs.</span> </div></div>You been talking w/ John, I didn't know you could use words like that :p :beer:
 
#34
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Doc;
I just borrowed those big words from John.
When he sees how poorly I use them, he will want them back. Will probably charge me extra for my scope..... rental charges.
laugh.gif


If you give me a better idea wat you want, Doc, I will draw it for you.
I keep master drawings of the different reticle components done to date, and can mix and match them as I go.

What did you fix?
 
#35
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I realized that the SFP reticle was supposed to be the same size in both pictures. I worked out making the center crosshairs and the outer hairs the same width but I forgot that they should also extend IN the same amount.

So instead of having 40MOA available in both pics the high power one only has 20 MOA. Of course that is just a guess as to how much the SFP reticle will cover up. Reality may have a totaly different look with more or less covered and thicker or thinner lines depending on where it is set.

Cheers :beer:
 
#36
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Another option is to put the thick "ends" of the cross-hairs on the FFP and let them move out of view when you zoom. You must be liking the Duplex SFP thing.
laugh.gif


I intend to re-draw them at a higher resolution so I can do a true 5-1 or so reduction to simulate low power like a 3.2-17 has.
The finest lines gotta be 5 pixels wide to still see them at 5-1 reduction.
 
#38
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

The most useful windage marks are within 2 MILs of the center crosshair, based on 0-15 mph wind values to about 800 yards. The only complaint I have about the P4 reticle is that it lacks 1/4 or 1/2 mil marks until 1 mil from the center.
 
#39
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Keep this all coming, I like to hear it.

WGM, I understand what you are saying about the hinge pivot, and you are right. The SFP reticle needs to be at the center of the hinge pivot to keep it from appering to move.

I have a couple of thoughts that I am goint to try to get on paper this weekend, but have to run right now, finishing a big project.

John III
 
#40
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

JBW#3 ...

If you center both the FFP reticle and the SFP reticle in the erector tube, and have the adjustments set to move the FFP end of the erector, the two reticles should remain in perfect relation to each other all the time, and you will always see them perfectly on top of each other.

My only concern, is if this can be done ... I'm not well educated on the exact placement(s) of the reticles, other than the fact that the FFP reticles are on the objective end of the erector, and the SFP reticle is on the ocular end ...

Perhaps someone could find out how the Sheppard reticle system works, simply for information on the concept of two reticles overlaid on one another (not for the purpose of duplicating them)...

In the Sheppard scopes, both reticles can move independently ... But in this model, the one we are designing in this thread, it's simply a matter of one reticle being magnified with the target image, and one staying static ... both reticles would move together when adjustments to POA were made ... and that's what makes me think it's crazy enough to work ...
laugh.gif
 
#41
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I agree with Zak, you need tic marks at no further than 2moa or 1/2 mil from center. This could be accomplished by 1. making the SFP reticle thin, about .1moa and 2. making the tic marks near the center a little taller/longer and 3. the full duplex in SFP is unnecessary so a floating crosshair or dot would do and you wouldn't have to worry about how big the tic marks are past the first one or two from center.
 
#42
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Doc, after using the NP-R1 reticle in the Nightforce scope, I can promise you 1 MOA vertically is not too close together or cluttery. I was afraid it would be but after seeing it I have realized it is not. 2MOA windage is good, as it not being at 1MOA reduces the effect of any potential clutter. Imagine the Gen!! reticl with a small mark between .5 and 1mil. That would be about like having 1MOA spacing. This would have to be the most versatile reticle design I have seen to date. The concept is awesome! If this happens, I might have to buy one of those USO scopes!
 
#43
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

WGM, if what you are saying re: focus is correct, then FFP scopes would not require an adjustable ocular. As you know, FFP scopes from USO and S&B both have +/- diopter ocular focus adjustments.

Bottom line is we need the real scope techies to lean in on the "how". Not saying it can't be done, just that we need an expert to solve the problem in a manner that is consistent with the reliability requirements of the overall WS and its intended use.

I'm with Glen - the more parts the more things to break.
 
#44
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Percentage-wise......how much does the apparent size of an FFP reticle shrink when moving from 17 power to 3.2 power?
Of course I am using an SN-3 as the example.
laugh.gif


I have only done a 50% shrink in my drawings.
It helps to know how far it will go.
Want to do more drawings, it really helps visualize this.
 
#46
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I am not bothering myself with the "how" of the reticle mounting and placement. I figure John might have a little experience with that.
laugh.gif


Dont let me stop you guys from working on it, though.... if noone theorized, the world would go nowhere, fast.
laugh.gif
 
#48
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

NineHotel ... you could very well be right ... there probably needs to be a way to adjust the position of the FFP reticle so that it's in the same focal plane as everything else ...

This endeavor might be a bit more complex than it seems on the surface ... but I too would love to hear from the resident experts on how this type of reticle system could be had ........
 
#50
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Netwraith;
You will take 6, right?
laugh.gif


Guys;
Taking the drawing I did previously, and increasing the thickness of the ranging marks by 25% still leaves some pretty small marks if we stick to 1MOA marks. This must be why USO used 1MOA sparingly in thier reticles. They look great at full power, or in a SFP reticle like NF, but become part of each other at low powers.

I am inclined to let the 1MOA marks be short enough to let them disappear behind the SFP mask at low powers....but I bet I get few who agree with me.
laugh.gif


Look at this;
Full power:
url]


Becomes this at low powers, 5-1 ratio:
url]


Even the larger lines start to disappear because my computers shrink function is losing data.
Are we really going to be able to use 1MOA marks below half power?
 
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