Rifle Scopes FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Just giving my opinion, as you did.
Its an interesting idea, but sounds very complex to my pea-brain.

For the hurting head, I prescribe BEER! :beer:

 

[supertac]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I was thinking about this all during school today. Made my brain HURT!!

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

OK,

After playing with my new FFP USO Scope I WANT THIS DUAL RETICLE SCOPE.

Here's why

This is 17X, all cool and copasetic right?

Well here it is at 3.2, on blue sky you can almost make out the tick marks. Imagine if you will the same thin wires used to such great effect at long range at about sunset against a dark wood line, on a mover at 100 yards. What cross hair?

Just as a rough guess I'm going to throw out 15 MOA as where I would tike the SFP to stop on high power which if I guestimate correctly would still allow you to see all 30MOA on low power. If the SFP is made to the correct size it would just cover the 1MOA marks but leave the 2MOA's and the 10's visible. As you dial down in power more of the FFP reticle would feed out of the SFP reticle which of course is remaining the same size. At the lowest power you would have a very similar appearing sight picture as it is now except the heavier cross hairs would be a bit thicker. You would be able to SEE the cross hair (or at least the thick part) in low light.

Granted the pics above are of the thin MDMOA reticle but I think the standard MDMOA may be the hot ticket to do this with.

John??? John????

Cheers :beer:

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Super;
I would guess this has caused a few headaches.
I am certainly not used to thinking about such things.

Doc;
Let me see if I understand you.

Are you suggesting an SFP reticle of just a simple x-hair floating in the center...starting at the center and running about 7.5 MOA above, below, left, and right of center. (A plus sign in the center). Allow it to become the POA as your current reticle shrinks at the lowest powers yet become covered by the FFP reticle as the power goes up?

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

You have me thinking more on this, Doc.

If this is what you intended, only 1 new reticle will need to be made....the SFP.

The FFP reticles USO already stocks would work fine as they are....and of course it would work fine with Mil-radian and MOA reticles...universal.

This is a VERY good idea, Doc!

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Yep, I think.

The only thing that would have to be designed and fitted would be the size of the SFP reticle so that it would not cover the hash marks through a certian power range. Essentialy the FFP ranging marks would "grow" out of the center of the reticle as you dialed on the power. The ranging marks could grown and shrink but you would ALWAYS have a constant reticle that you could use in low light or confused backgrounds.

The SFP reticle "may" not even have to connect to the center of the reticle. That would be subject to some discussion for each of the relative merits of the idea. The other topic if the SFP reticle is closed would be how thick to make it and how far in would it go.

Need some scope building math or science to figure out the ratios and proportions.

Cheers :beer:

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I will buy one!
I like the simplicity of this.

I wonder if the erector tube on current models could support the SFP or if a new one is in order.
If a new one is required, can we send in our current scopes and have our current reticles moved to the new erector tube?

JBW....you out there?

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Need more info on the locations of the lenses.

Is it simply a matter of sammiching 2 more lenses into the erector tube?
Is there already a lens there that can be replaced by the SFP reticle?
I imagine both reticles would have to be in the erector tube so that they can be adjusted for elevation and windage simultaniously.
Where would the pivot point be?

Anybody got a picture of the insides of a FFP and SFP scope?

Cheers :beer:

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I believe John said the SFP would have to be exactly at the pivot point.
Dont know answers to the other questions.

Bring your SN-3 over, I have a band saw.

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I was thinking dremel and a pin pinch for those pesky lock rings.

Cheers :beer:

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

:beer:

 

[BretShooter]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by doc76251:
<span style="font-weight: bold">

Just as a rough guess I'm going to throw out 15 MOA as where I would tike the SFP to stop on high power which if I guestimate correctly would still allow you to see all 30MOA on low power. </span></div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Rafael:
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Let me see if I understand you.

Are you suggesting an SFP reticle of just a simple x-hair floating in the center...starting at the center and running about 7.5 MOA above, below, left, and right of center. (A plus sign in the center). Allow it to become the POA as your current reticle shrinks at the lowest powers yet become covered by the FFP reticle as the power goes up? </span></div></div>It sounds like 15 in all directions, for a total of 30 to me.

As for cost, doesn't USO have a simple duplex type reticle or other hunting/target type reticles? They may be sufficient for your SFP reticle. Dimensions and math required of course. That combined with the thin MDMOA might be the ticket. In fact, I can't imagine them not having a simple crosshair or two.

And if the money absolutely had to be spent on a new reticle mask, wouldn't you want to spend it on a new improved ranging reticle, vs a simple crosshair?

I was wondering... Wouldn't the 1 moa ticks be desirable at low power on the windage for wind correction for close targets?

 

[JBW3]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I wish we were all sitting around the shop drinking a beer over this :beer:
I think I know what you guys are saying, and again I know it's possible. I don't have the ratios for what the RFP size would have to be compared to the FFP. We haven't really ever built RFP scopes, so there would be a little trial and error I'm sure.
Doc, can you draw this out on a napkin or something so I know exactly what we are looking at? The drawing doesn't need to be to scale, but if you can jot down what you want it to measure in MOA, I can handle the rest.
If we are talking about non-lit reticles, the cost to make the reticles is a little cheeper. Keep in mind we don't want to have the RFP reticle lit, this would only complicate matters.
John III

 

[JBW3]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Bret,
We do have a couple of fine crosshairs and duplex reticles, but they are made for the FFP. The RFP reticles are at least twice the size of a FFP.
John III

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Bretshooter;
Yeah, you did a better job of understanding what Doc said. 15/30MOA sounds right.

I have the same scope and reticle that Doc is showing pictures of. I can tell you that the 1MOA markings are so close to center at 3.2 power that I could really do without them at lower powers.
Just my opinion, and I have been wrong before.

If they were made large enough to see well at low power, they would probably obscure the view around the crosshairs.

JBW#3;
That would be great(Beer). Why dont you hop on the company Gulfstream and pick us up for a high flying reticle design party?

:bandit:

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

John,

I could probably save you some effort and draw it to scale if you could e-mail me the dim's of the hashmarks on the MDMOA and the PCMOA retcles. I got's me an ideer

Cheers :beer:

 

[BretShooter]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Ok, that idea went down the toilet...

So John, what is the typical cost of a new reticle design? I realize that front will be different than rear, especially since you haven't done any rear type yet. But a round number for the front would be helpful.

And I guess if we were to do some of the development work on line sizes and the like, we would probably have to be clear on a few items. Like what the exact powers are. My reason for this is that the ration between 1.8 and 10 is 5.555, 3.2 and 17 is 5.3125, and 3.8 and 22 is 3.789 vs 5 as was bounced around in this thread. That could make a difference in the length of the 1 MOA tick marks so that they are obscured by the RFP/SFP at the power we want. I am sure other numbers will be helpful in getting this design down pat.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Any more thoughts on this since we spoke, Doc?

I realize now that we were going in two different directions. You were thinking of SFP outer posts and I was thinking that you were thinking of an SFP cross-hair only in the middle that hides behind the FFP at mid-high powers. Ya think?

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Oh yeah, I got thoughts but I need a bit more lubrication to get them on paper. I'm playing with MATH wich is always a dangerous thing. I'm thinking a corperate lunch at a quiet establishment where such things can be discussed with an infinite supply of napkins can be had.

Hooters comes to mind

. If not there is JB's and a few other places of such ill repute that we can hash things out at.

I don't think our directions were different it just seems that one was in the left seat and the other was in the right looking out the side windows. We're still moving down the road, just gotta get our heads in the same window

.

Cheers :beer:

 

[ryu_sekai]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

me likey

tag

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by ryu_sekai:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> me likey

tag </span></div></div>Thats why I was asking you about SFP vs FFP in that other thread.
I thought you might be interested.

 

[polarcow]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I read this topic and didn't see a specific reference to this so maybe I'm not posting old info but here goes. Someone mentioned zeiss using dual plane reticles. I have one of these (varipoint models) and I thought s&b made them as well but I could be mistaken. Anyway, I have what zeiss calls their #56 reticle. Basically it is a german 3-post design with a dot in the center. The dot is black until the lighting knob is depressed then only the dot lights up. The center dot (which I prefer to cross-hairs personally) is in the second plane while the posts are in the first. I really like this reticle because with a little practice you can use the spacing/thickness of the posts to range with while the dot takes up less area at higher magnification. Because s&b and now hensoldt will put any reticle in a scope that you want it could be possible to do a similar thing maybe using the hollow ranging posts like on the hensoldt 4x with a dot/cross hair. Did that make sense? I included a couple of links just in case. I hope I didn't totally miss the point of the thread.

#56 reticle:
http://www.zeiss.com/C12568CF00206298/GraphikTitelIntern/g_VVarRet//VVarRet.jpg

ranging posts:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hensoldt-Fero-Z-24-P...1QQcmdZViewItem


-polarcow

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Thats the same idea we were discussing, Polarcow.
You din't miss the point.

Those pics are a very good representation of what we are talking about there. Thanks for posting it.

 

[justjc]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by doc76251:
<span style="font-weight: bold">

</span></div></div>Doc,

Really good pics. What camera and mode did you use? Excellent depth-of-field.

jc

 

[ryu_sekai]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

any updates?

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

jc,

It's a point and shoot 2mpix Sony. I just wiggle the camera around untill I can see the crosshair (fuzzy line) in the screen on the back and squeeze the trigger. I take 2 or 3 of each pic. General;y I get 2 soild ones. You just have to drive the camera backwards to get it lined up right. An adjustable cheek piece is a bonus for a good "camera weld"

Have been busy as a ............. as evidenced by my lack of posting. Still working on it just haven't had much time to dedicate to the idea.

Cheers :beer:

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Beers and reticle design sometime this week?

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Hell Yeah!!!!!

Let me clear with mama san, tomorrow good for you? Give me a shout.

Cheers :beer:

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

You know the kids will be out tricking for treats, right?
I will clear it with Melita and let you know!!!
Kelly's, or my place?

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

You had to remind me of that

Wednesday?

Either is fine.

Cheers :beer:

 

[Guest]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Here is what i would like on my USO sn3 ,Build your moa retical heavy enough to see it well at the lowest power,But make the center crose fine target style and one MOA in the center or larger in size.this would allow small under moa targets to be doable and still work at all power settings.


?

 

[Guns4570]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I have been reading this thread with interest. I know the comments were made that the GAP reticle was hard to see on 3 power in the S3. Have you ever looked at it in the 1.8-10 compact S3 when its on 1.8 power, wow is that a little bitty sucker. I had to raise it to 3 power and 4 power was better with my 50 y.o. eyes. Would this reticle solve that problem on the compact too? Just curious.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

asm1, Guns4570;
Glad to see more interest.

Doc's pictures do a great job pointing out the issue. I have the same reticle as he, and its real nice at med-high powers.

There's a ton of ways to build these things to bring back function at lower powers, as asm1 suggested. I am thinking along with what he said.

Guns;
Yeah, I think it would solve the problem. I am pushing 44 and my eyes are on the downhill slide too. I think the SFP reticle should be even more pronounced on lower power scopes, for the same reason.

Damn....I wish we could bring the people who posted in this thread to a meeting place for some beers and fiery discussion. If only one of you had a Gulfstream!

Doc and I are getting together with annother hide member on Wed. night to hoist a few. Will let you know what comes of it....besides next-day social flu.

 

[outlawsix]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Gentlemen all i ask is please have this thing worked out in time for the next group buy. I already have money set aside for 1 SN3, working on coin for the second one.

Would be really nice to have the perfect reticle. And this sucker is sounding like it will be just the ticket.

Thanks, and there are a whole mess of people rooting for ya'll to get it figured out.

 

[Guest]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Originally posted by Rafael:
[QB] asm1, Guns4570;
Glad to see more interest.


There's a ton of ways to build these things to bring back function at lower powers, as asm1 suggested. I am thinking along with what he said.


The only time i would use it at 3.2 would be hunting at dusk for the best light gathering ability ,I am glad mine has a lighted reticle or it would be useless for that aplication .

 

[doc76251]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

A recent update.

Had beers and conversation with Rafael and TREEFROG Wed night at the local watering hole. With the help of some intel from JBW#3 I think we have a viable option to make this idea run. The initial concept is to minimize the changes to exsisting reticles and work in a SFP reticle that will work in tandem with it. I'll be sending JBW#3 some bar napkins and such when I get them all in order

. Hang in there we're getting it there!!

Cheers :beer:

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I really liked Doc's thoughts on this!
He has spent some time on the idea and it shows when you see it.

Thanks, Doc!

I am buried at work so I may be pretty quiet for a few days.

 

[outlawsix]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Any updates?

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

None for now, am hoping we can talk USO into building a sample to tinker with.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

With no guarantee of success, I would think this is not USO's highest priority. The have the same problem as the rest of us.....keeping money flowing in.

I believe that we will see a prototype eventually, as JBW still seems to think this is doable. We will have to be patient.


Is it ready yet?

 

[tol1488]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Glad to see this hasn't been forgotten.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Yeah, tol1488;

I have been in contact with John at USO and he is still interested.

Without knowing the viability of the end-product, its not something any business owner would put ahead of proven products, I know I wouldn't. I am just glad that he is still interested and that he thinks the idea has some teeth.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Bump

 

[chrismadrid]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Raf - I asked about at the IWA. No commercial interest - alot of enthusiast interest.

Conceptually possible - and has been done. The issue is making it work well in top end scopes where ant minimal misalignment will be VERY visible.

Shepherd scopes avoid the issue by having one fixed image and one moving image reticle. The POSP IP21 only has one aiming reticle.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Thanks, Chris.

For the sake of a prototype, the first one may have two ross-hairs as it won't require a new reticle to test the idea. For a production model, the FFP reticle will only have ranging marks if I get my wish, no x-hairs or aiming point. This negates the alignment issue, sort-of.

The only reason I was speaking of the FFP reticle having an aiming point was to save money by using existing reticles for a prototype. If the idea goes anywhere, purpose-built reticles would certainly be helpful.

 

[chrismadrid]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For a production model, the FFP reticle will only have ranging marks if I get my wish, no x-hairs or aiming point. This negates the alignment issue, sort-of. </div></div> Erm - I think we're both pursuing the same idea.

for the sake of example SFP fine dot and crosshairs - FFP stadia/RF ticks?

Custom USO/S&B etc reticles will be costly - But (a heretic thought here) it's real cheap to get specials done in china!

JW3 - chime in whenever you wish!

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Yes, that is what I had in mind. This way a misalignment of the FFP wont really matter. This will be costly, but once you have a few SFP and FFP reticles they can be mixed and matched to the customers needs more easily than a single reticle with all the mark on it.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

For instance:
If you had:
Stock of fine and medium SFP cross-hairs.
Stock of GAP FFP(without x-hairs).
Stock of MOA FFP(without x-hairs).

This gives the USO customer 4 choices of how to order and USO only needs 3 reticles to accomplish all 4.

Because you a combining them, the customer gets more choices than they would with single plane reticles. This creates more "custom" options than before.

 

[chrismadrid]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Raf - I can tell you that such a reticle already is part designed and is being investigated in Europe cant tell you who though - Not yet!

Cross ticks are scaled outwards so that as you Zoom the ticks appear not to get overly thicker.

 

[Rafael]

Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Interesting, though I don't understand your explanation of the cross-ticks not changing apparent size.