Rifle Scopes FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

#151
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

The ticks thing - Trying to make sure that the ticks are kept to a relative to FOV size.

i.e imagine a 1/100 miliradian line say at 1/10mr spacing (it's an EXTREME "for example" - OK!) - well would you use it at 4 mag - no so why have it visible. Would you use it at say 40 mag - probably. Does that make sense.?
 
#152
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Yes.
The fact that the ranging mark musts remian in the FFP make this a challenge, but I don't see a way around the challenge other than to keep them fairly large.

In my case I want this to be an MOA reticle, and earlier we presented the idea of letting the 1MOA marks be short enough to disappear behind the SFP at low power. The question remains, though, which fractional marks are still needed at low power?
half/MOA? quarter/MOA? full/MOA?

This may be another area that needs to be addressed with more reticle choices.

A prototype would help determine this.

 
#153
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

A while back I did a reticle with basically NO lines. About 10 scopes were made afaik. Helped me better understand what the brain does with images.

But a lot depends on the image quality and the scope - it's all down to tricking the brain. The main issues come with VERY HIGH magnification as any mistake in the distance between reticles will put on (or both) out of focus. At lower mag it's not an issue - I tend to use HIGH mag so it has to be high end to get that guaranty.

But say a 3.2-17 / 3.8-22 SN3 (or 3.8-22 SN9) would do for a start
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#155
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

I am comming to this thread rather late, I appologize in advance if I skipped over any important points others have already made.

It seems to me that if the FFP reticule were etched on (anti-reflective coated) glass all it would contain is the range-marking ticks horizontally and vertically. That is, think of the tick marks "floating freely in the air" on the primary image plane.

Then the SFP reticule would have the cross hairs sized just right for being unobtrusive yet visible as twilight wanes (about 0.05 mil at 10X). If the SFP reticule were also etched on (anti-reflective coated) glass it could have the interior ~0.1-0.2 mil missing with a small (colored?) dot at the exact center.

The FPR reticlue does not have to be exactly dead-nuts on the SFP reticule. It just has to be close enough that the tick marks (or footballs) do not appear to "float in the air" (or leave the cross hairs) and are always "visibly connected" by the cross hairs from the SFP reticule. Longer tick marks give more manufacturing tollerance. You range with the tick marks and shoot with the cross hairs.

Thus when one zooms, the image and the tick marks zoom together, but the cross hairs (on which they zoom) remain of constant thickness.

With the FPR reticule on the front of the erector assembly and the SFP reticule on the back of the erector assembly the collimation of the SPF reticule to the FFP reticule is done at the factory and should hold well over time. That is: no extra turrets are needed, however, some internal factory adjustments might be required.
 
#156
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Yes, MitchAlsup, thats the general idea.

I would prefer a solid x-hair, but certainly the floating dot will work, and would be a great option to offer. Its just one more SFP reticle to stock and could be paired with mil or moa based FFP reticles to allow more choices.

Are you in the market for one?
There are a small number of people currently vocal with thier interest in this. The more who show interest, the easier it is to get USO to produce such a thing.

 
#157
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What company is it that you are working with on the reticles you just mentioned?</div></div>I cant name them as they dont want me to. It's fair as they're small and cant handle calls.
 
#158
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The FPR reticlue does not have to be exactly dead-nuts on the SFP reticule. It just has to be close enough that the tick marks (or footballs) do not appear to "float in the air" (or leave the cross hairs) and are always "visibly connected" by the cross hairs from the SFP reticule. </div></div> Mitch - not sure. The brain is VERY fussy about imbalance. I bet you spot badly centred hubcaps on car wheels!
 
#159
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrismadrid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Mitch - not sure. The brain is VERY fussy about imbalance. I bet you spot badly centred hubcaps on car wheels! </div></div>

What I mean by this is as follows::

Optics is an unforgiving science/practice. In order to be dead-nuts on, one might need precision on the order of a couple of microns. Whereas, about 100 microns is about the best one can routinely do in high precision machining. Thus some form of adjustments are required and these need to be set during manufacture. It is likely that after a few years and dozens of heavy bumps that this aligned reticule may have moved by those few microns.....

Rather than having to make a trip back to the factory, and rather than having more adjustments run through the housing;

If the tick marks were sufficiently long (4X the typical tollerance), even though the brain could see the colimation was a bit off, it is still the kind of image that the brain could process as-if there were no particular collimation error.

Note, I am not talking about a rotational miscollimation but a simple linear transposition of the SFP wrt the FFP.

To Rafael: I am intrigued by this kind of optical aid, but I would not go so far (as yet) to put myself down on any list you may be building. Did we ever figure out what this might add to the cost of one of your scopes (ballpark)?
 
#160
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Just so noone gets the wrong idea.....
I do not work for USO.
I am just another customer with a request.
I don't wish to receive anything more than the opportunity to purchase a scope built this way.

USO has not yet commented on additional cost, so we really don't know.
 
#162
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

I had a PM exchange with JBW this week.
He is still interested in the idea, and is looking into it further.

From what he said, he has alot of other projects in the works.
Good position to be in! Not having enough to do is unhealthy in every way.
 
#178
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

I'd love a SFP fine reticle (like MDMOA) with a FFP ranging system lower in the FOV. Placement could be similar to Dragunov/NF NP-RR1. My opinion, I'd rather see a more compact sub-moa ranging system instead of ranging marks that scroll across the bottom of the FOV.
 
#179
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Chris;
Yeah, you made me take a look at the Horus site.
Interesting.

Cube;
Keep in mind...
Anything in the FFP that is not centered in the reticle will tend to be thrown out of the field of view at higher power.
Put it close enough to center at high power and it will move closer to the center when you dial down power.

Offset ranging will be hard to do unless it is kept in the RFP reticle like NF does....but then it only is correct on 1 power setting.

Just a thought from my limited mind.
laugh.gif
 
#184
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hair? Any interest?

Thanks for the link. It appears to me that the H47 reticle is available <span style="font-style: italic">only</span> in the Talon - which is a 1-4 power carbine scope. And it's not a very good carbine scope - I had one and sold it. The reticle is too small even at 4 power to be very useful - I like the ACOG ballistic reticles much better.

And that scope is not useful for a sniper.
 
#185
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, Chris. Didn't see your post. </div></div>Great minds - and almost exact timing
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#187
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Well, you asked.

I see no reason to have a SFP static-size cross-hair. I own only FFP scopes with Gen II mildot reticles. And I prefer scopes with milliradian adjustments rather than MOA.

But bear in mind that I'm am not a paper puncher or a varmint hunter. Perhaps those are applications for those.

I want the capability to successfully and quickly shoot multiple-target multiple-range engagements. I've never had a problem with the size of the cross-hair on any of the targets I shoot or am interested in shooting.

At ranges of less than 700 yards, I use a Gen II reticle just like a Horus, i.e., from a 100 yard zero, I hold elevation, and, of course, windage. I have those holds memorized - and, at those ranges, I virtually never have to adjust the elevation for atmospheric conditions.

That gives me the capability of rapidly engaging targets which are closer, may be of a higher threat level, and are relatively larger, without having to touch the dials.

Only at 700 yards or more do I dial elevation - and, being further away, I have the time to do so, and often the need, as different altitudes and atmospheric conditions will require precise adjustments on targets which are relatively smaller.

That's my opinion, and applicable only to the kind of shooting I do.

(Edited to add): Two-thirds of the U.S. Gross Domestic Product consists of "Consumer Discretionary Spending", which is economist-speak for "selling stuff to people who don't need it." I think people should have what they want. My stock market investments depend on it.
laugh.gif


"Speed is fine, but accuracy is final," said one noted gunfighter.

I want both.

 
#188
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Being the other half of this "brainless trust"
laugh.gif
I'm not seeing the down side to having a fixed dimention cross hair that also has angularly correct stadia marks for ranging across the power spectrum. Folks with high(er) powered FFP scopes will rarely use the bottom end of the scope except for perhaps general observation while those with a SFP scope can use the full spectrum of power with no deficit as it is known that the ranging aspect is a single power. Having the benifits of both types of reticles and none of the detractors seems to be the next viable step in scope developement. The science and mechanics of it are somewhat complicated but the benifits of the completed product will be substantial.

For instance dial down to 4 or 5 power and use your FFP scope for observation on a confused multi dimentional background and the stadia marks begin to blend into the back ground. Having a static sized cross hair a la the SFP reticle will give you a defined aiming point no matter what the power. This would be especially important if you had to engage multiple targets over a wide FOV or more important to the sniping world to engage a single target yet keep track of one or two other "targets" at the same time. There would be no shift left, shift right and determine which is the more intrusive threat because your FOV will not let you see both after the first precision shot.

As it is currently designed the static size cross hair on full power would be no bigger than the FFP reticle so no fine ranging ability is los for distant targets yet as you dial down the power the SFP cross hair will grow and draw the eye to the center as opposed to hunting around for the middle.

In practical and tactical use I think this concept will flip the tactical scope world on it's ear. Kind of a V-8 moment.

Cheers, Doc
 
#189
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Thanks, Lindy. I don't regret asking.
laugh.gif


How much of "your" spending would you classify as CDS?
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Holding out to 700 seems pretty efficient of course.
Are you employing one of the x-mas tree style reticles or have you refined your skill at holding in the open areas of the reticle?
Like Doc, I don't see where this system precludes either.

I don't think I can describe my hopes for this any better than he put it above, so I won't try.





 
#190
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In practical and tactical use I think this concept will flip the tactical scope world on it's ear. Kind of a V-8 moment.</div></div>These guys will be so pleased
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po3-9_L.jpg


AND what's more the two reticles have INDEPENDENT illumination. See the little brass things in the scope tube - LED's - Different colours if you want
whistle.gif


po3-9_ret.jpg


NOTHING is really new any more!

 
#191
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Raf: We have two female children in college. I don't regard that spending as discretionary - and I'm damn sure the kids don't.
laugh.gif


Until that ends, my level of discretionary spending is a lot lower than it might be. Half of that spending terminates next May, and the other half the following May. Graduate school, if any, is at their expense, which has been communicated to them very clearly.

With respect to reticles, I used a Horus reticle for about 3 years, during which I learned to hold wind and elevation simultaneously with any reticle.

I use only the original Premier Gen II reticles - not the Gen II XR - which is also virtually identical to the Schmidt & Bender Klein reticle.

I like the dots better for low-light conditions than any reticle based only on hash marks, and 10 mils worth of graduations is plenty for me.

There is no reason why one couldn't do what I do with the reticle being discussed here. I hope it works out like y'all hope.

 
#192
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

How old is that thing, Chris?
Looks to be some sort of a power level indicator on the perimeter. Is it a 3-9 power?

Lindy;
No kids here so I guess my spending is more loose.
You will probably go hog-wild when they graduate.
laugh.gif

Still, you must be happy they have continued their schooloing o this level.

Seems like many are moving away from dots these days, but for you. Your argument makes sense. Dots would present a challenge in a dual reticle design though.

We can't really say it will go anywhere, but I think it's worth trying. I "think" it has alot of potential. Got to get one to play with and see.
 
#193
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got to get one to play with and see.</div></div>

I'll be interested in doing that at some point.

A lot of people look through a tube at a Horus reticle, and say, "Oh, I couldn't possibly use that - it's too <span style="font-style: italic">busy</span>."

People who have used them for a while say, "Oh, you get used to that." Me, too.

So, that's a training and familiarity issue. The cockpit of a high-performance aircraft is pretty busy, too - but it's useful to the pilot trained on it and experienced with it.

Back when I flew multi-pilot aircraft, we spent our time in the air when not otherwise engaged playing "catch the dummy", i.e., drilling each other on emergency procedures, and anything else we might have to do under time pressure without being able to look up the procedure in the book. We did that because we knew <span style="font-weight: bold">our</span> lives might depend on it. Writer Ernest K. Gann described commercial flying, correctly, as "hours and hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of stark terror." It's good to be ready for those moments.

But you have to be willing to put in the time. There are a lot of shooters who aren't even willing to memorize their dope, or dry fire. That limits what they can do. Not my problem.

For most civilians, it doesn't matter. For military and L.E. shooters, it might, one day.




 
#195
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

Lindy;
My Dad flew E2's when he was younger.
He described it the way that gent did.

I don't get in near the practise you guy's do and don't have extensive experience in this field. Maybe I should not be tinkering with such things without more experience?
Then again, sometimes an outsoders point of view can see things an insider was blind-to. It wouldn't be the first time.

That's the goal right now.....do one, and play with it.
I know Doc can't wait to get it out to the range.


shocktech125;
Don't we wish we could answer that?!
laugh.gif

I really don't know at this point.
I do know we are moving closer.
Hope to be posting pic's and thoughts as soon as we can.
 
#196
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe I should not be tinkering with such things without more experience?</div></div>

There's no danger. Tinker away. My wife and I have a family rule - you don't have to do something the right way the first time, unless someone's life depends on it.

You might come up with something useful, and whatever isn't won't find its way into widespread use, at least not for long. People whose lives depend on stuff figure out pretty quickly what doesn't work.

 
#198
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How old is that thing, Chris?
Looks to be some sort of a power level indicator on the perimeter. Is it a 3-9 power?</div></div>The IP21 Scope for the SVD has been about for some time (one of our Russian experts must know) - but afaik still made - www.posp.ru
wink.gif
.

yes a 3-9 - But I've seen a 4-12 advertised, on and off.

The SFP reticle rotates with the zoom from what I've read - and is allied to the distance acting on a BDC ramp as well. iirc there's a fixed SFP mark and a mark on the FFP that moves relative to scale range of a man

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/Manuals/KOPOSPZoomManual.pdf

I'd like to play with one too for a while. But were not cheap (considering I just want to play and don't have an SVD etc to fit it to later). That said - just looked and the price seems to have dropped so maybe...... PO 3-9x42M - 265$ - No kids here either - but a not overly understanding wife!

An option would be fixed centre SFP floating dot and floating FFP (no cross hairs) hold over marks - a la Dragunov/Simonov. AND a rangefinder stadia in SFP too maybe. An idea, nothing more.

 
#199
Re: FFP ranging reticle with static-size cross-hai

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of people look through a tube at a Horus reticle, and say, "Oh, I couldn't possibly use that - it's too <span style="font-style: italic">busy</span>."

People who have used them for a while say, "Oh, you get used to that." Me, too.</div></div>I agree, me too. - BUT after a while I notice that I loose perception of detail. i.e ALL I see is the bit of the H2 reticle I'm using and also the bit if image related to it.

There are days, when shooting "off axis" - I'm sure you could walk miss world stark naked across another part of the image - and I wouldn't "see" her.

Swap "miss world" for "angry bloke with large hand cannon" - and it gets worrying.

The trick is only make visible the info/ref points you NEED. my belief is that a SFP/FFP design will permit covering more scenarios with less clutter. really!
 
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