Guys who have shot first and second focal plane scopes, what was your preference? Did you really use your scope to measure distance enough to justify a large reticle or was a non- enlarging reticle more preferred? Will be using for hunting/ occaisional range day.
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Rifle Scopes FFP vs SFP
- Thread starter Pew—-Ting!
- Start date
Depends on the application.
If it's a low power variable, then focal plane will have less of an impact on your use. The best thing about FFP is that you can range at any magnification, so it's invaluable in long-distance shooting. But in a 1-4 or 1-6, you probably won't be doing much ranging, so an SFP scope could fit the bill just fine. By sticking to SFP, you might be able to stretch the budget a little further on other features.
One exception would be BDC reticles. Since these reticles are fixed holdovers, I personally prefer a BDC optic to be FFP, but scopes like the Razor 1-6 with the JM reticle work just fine.
If it's a low power variable, then focal plane will have less of an impact on your use. The best thing about FFP is that you can range at any magnification, so it's invaluable in long-distance shooting. But in a 1-4 or 1-6, you probably won't be doing much ranging, so an SFP scope could fit the bill just fine. By sticking to SFP, you might be able to stretch the budget a little further on other features.
One exception would be BDC reticles. Since these reticles are fixed holdovers, I personally prefer a BDC optic to be FFP, but scopes like the Razor 1-6 with the JM reticle work just fine.
It isn't about ranging, there are far better tools for that available now.
It is primarily about hold offs and holdovers.
With a SFP scope, your subtensions are only accurate at one magnification.
For example, if you were using a 4-16 X SFP scope, the subtensions are normally only accurate at the highest magnification (there are scopes where it is something besides max mag).
You're shooting in a stiff, full value wind requiring 1.5 mils of hold off.
Let's say you have backed off the max mag for field of view, say 10X. You want to hold for that wind. What are the subtensions now? What is your hold off to equal 1.5 mils?
For your reference, 8 X would double the subtensions (that is supposing you are precisely on 8x or the mag ring is marked correctly).
Now, let's look at the same scenario with a FFP scope. It is a non-issue. The subtensions are correct no matter what the magnification.
It is primarily about hold offs and holdovers.
With a SFP scope, your subtensions are only accurate at one magnification.
For example, if you were using a 4-16 X SFP scope, the subtensions are normally only accurate at the highest magnification (there are scopes where it is something besides max mag).
You're shooting in a stiff, full value wind requiring 1.5 mils of hold off.
Let's say you have backed off the max mag for field of view, say 10X. You want to hold for that wind. What are the subtensions now? What is your hold off to equal 1.5 mils?
For your reference, 8 X would double the subtensions (that is supposing you are precisely on 8x or the mag ring is marked correctly).
Now, let's look at the same scenario with a FFP scope. It is a non-issue. The subtensions are correct no matter what the magnification.
Yeah, to expand on this, if you're using anything over an LPVO, an FFP reticle is really important for reticle subtensions.
If your scope magnification is a 1-4, 1-5, or 1-6, SFP should be fine, but anything further than that, FFP becomes increasingly valuable.
Concur. I don't see much utility for FFP on a scope that tops out at 10X, though some with very well designed reticles work.
Yeah I’ve been looking at a vortex vipernpst gen II 5-25x50. So I’m thinking a FFP would be the better option.
Yup get the FFP. And to repeat it again as it needs it, FFP IS NOT ABOUT RANGING. That's biggest myth rolling around the internet. Good BS detector though as if you come across someone who tells you this then you know not to listen to them. LOL
The patrician choice is to get a high-power SFP scope with a MIL reticle and MOA turrets. ?
I started out not owning any FFP scopes. Admittedly, I didn't know as much about shooting. I was at a match and I dailed my SFP scope down in magnification and used the reticle to hold for moving targets. I got lucky and got a good amount of hits. A buddy asked me how much I held off and I had absolutely no idea. If i was using a ffp scope, I would have known my hold off. As I learned more about shooting, I slowly upgraded to FFP on certain rifles. I still own more SFP scopes, than FFP though.
I've since moved up to FFP scopes for all of my competition and long range rifles except for my RECCE that only has a 1-6 scope. My logic there is that if I'm shooting at distance, I will always be on 6x so it doesn't matter if it's SFP.
I've since moved up to FFP scopes for all of my competition and long range rifles except for my RECCE that only has a 1-6 scope. My logic there is that if I'm shooting at distance, I will always be on 6x so it doesn't matter if it's SFP.
If you're a particularly big-brained individual and have your SFP scopes fully mapped and know all the equivalencies, you can really stretch the legs of an SFP.
But when the market is so chock-full of good FFP options, it's getting harder and harder to not make the change over.
This is partially true, SFP gets really complicated when you are in between magnification values. Most of the time I just grab my adjustment dial and turn until I get the image I want. I'm rarely at exactly whole numbers in my magnification which means I would have to extrapolate. That's almost impossible to do on the fly and I'm ok with math.
STRELOK pro will give you hold over values on SFP scope as long as you input your mangificaiton, but again you have to be exactly on what you are inputting.
I’ll echo FFP for any precision platforms. Like someone above said, there are just too many solid options at all price points to settle for a SPF optic. Esp if you like to hold over at less than full power without thinking too much (who the hell wants to think more than necessary, lol).
IMO, Only case for a SFP scope is for an LPVO on a carbine that spends most of its time at 400 yards or less. Then the larger reticle at lower power may be helpful.
IMO, Only case for a SFP scope is for an LPVO on a carbine that spends most of its time at 400 yards or less. Then the larger reticle at lower power may be helpful.
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Im a mediocre non competition shooter and hunter.
I prefer FFP. For shooting and hunting.
Still have a .308 tikka lightweight with a SFP scope as its really a spare/loaner and dont want $1400 glass on it.......
Working on building an SPR build and will go FFP for glass on it as well.
Even had one of those SFP, TMR reticle, M1 knob Leupolds once. Just once. Learned my lesson.
Still pissed at the dude at MHSA who talked me into not waiting for m5 knobs. Foolishness of my youth.......
I prefer FFP. For shooting and hunting.
Still have a .308 tikka lightweight with a SFP scope as its really a spare/loaner and dont want $1400 glass on it.......
Working on building an SPR build and will go FFP for glass on it as well.
Even had one of those SFP, TMR reticle, M1 knob Leupolds once. Just once. Learned my lesson.
Still pissed at the dude at MHSA who talked me into not waiting for m5 knobs. Foolishness of my youth.......
Agree 100%. FFP will serve you well. Set your zero, document it, stick with the same load and dial all you want. As a matter of fact... I recently kicked myself in the ass because I did not understand why my shots were off at the range until... A fellow shooter said whats the matter brother. Told him I did not understand why the rifle was giving a different result today. After a short discussion he pointed out to me what I have read on this site countless times. If you site in your rifle at a 100m on a second focal plane optic, remember. You are only going to get the same results if you use the same magnification as when you sighted it in on. I felt so stupid. This is a fundamental thing I should have remembered. Not to mention keeping track of six rifles and whats going on with each dope card. My head hurts.
I recently purchased said scope. I'm an MOA guy(let the hate begin) and I didn't know whether I'd like FFP and how it magnifies the reticle, since there's a good chance I would not be using it to range targets, most likely (maybe, maybe not) anyways. Using the reticle (EBR-7c), at 600 yards, at 25x, has proven to be very beneficial, for my older eyes. So with that said, I think you would be happy with that choice. Mac
I used both yesterday
I prefer FFP.
With SFP if you learn what you reticle reads at certain points of magnification and are careful to use those you can actually get along pretty well and make accurate calls on misses if spotting for someone but it’s pretty easy to mess up as well.
FFP eliminates all of those extra steps.
Yesterday I laughed out loud in the woods about moa as well
Range target
Dial in 9.2 mils on the 7mm, wind is calm so hold left a smidge bang,,,,,,,,,,ping!
Easy peasy.
Set up my 260 with my old SFP MOA scope on it now.
look at app,,,saying dial in 42.5,,,,LOL this blows! ,,that’s a lot of clicks to deal with!
I’d much rather dial 12 something than 42 something!
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Which app? My app (Strelok Pro) gives me the elevation turret adjustment in clicks and MOA (or MILs).
In this case... the turret adjustment value is 12.8-MOA. So, 12-3/4 MOA. I know that my elevation turret is 12-MOA per revolution. Easy peasy... One full turn plus 3/4 (which is 3 clicks). That would take me about 2 seconds to do. I don't count out 53 clicks. Who does that??
I use ballistic AE
I don’t care what you say(my dial is 12 moa as well).
I’ll take 1 turn and a bit over 3 turns and a bit any day and twice on Sunday.
I don’t care what you say(my dial is 12 moa as well).
I’ll take 1 turn and a bit over 3 turns and a bit any day and twice on Sunday.
What I highlighted is not true at all. I don’t think you read that on this site.
Well you need to put something in there as some new shooters might take it for something it isn't.
That probably didnt have anything to do with @Steel head picture. Diet pepsi just sucks. You must shoot MOAI spit diet pepsi everywhere.....thanks for that
Laughing at some of this. Easy to tell who just reads w/o doing, an who does but still does not understand.
Thankfully I don’t have to dial in FahrenheitI believe MILs is in Celsius and MOA is Fahrenheit.
OK, since I'm the newb here, I gotta ask, which is better....Mil or Moa??? Mac
UOF
You are thinking about this backwards
You guys need to think of it as when I zoom out the reticle appears smaller on an FFP, yet covers the same amount of the target. BUT when I zoom my SFP out the reticle covers way MORE of the target..
think this one through
You are thinking about this completely backwards and thus is the second “myth” of modern LR precision FFPs.
You guys need to think of it as when I zoom out the reticle appears smaller on an FFP, yet covers the same amount of the target. BUT when I zoom my SFP out the reticle covers way MORE of the target..
think this one through
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That has been pointed out on this sight before. For some scopes it is 100% true but, unless your a very good shooter you will never know why your groups have moved a 1/8 to 1/2 moa. While there are many reasons to go FFP there are just as many to shoot a SPF scope. I have both but prefer SFP because I shoot 10 times the sub ammo vs H/Speed an when shooting long with a sub it takes much up to get there over a H/speed zero. With the Leupold 32 moa trees I have 64 using the home made doubler's an 96 at min power before having to dial anything (targets are 12x14 hit or miss only). Most sub matches are very time sensitive so dialing is a lost leader most of the time.
OK, since I'm the newb here, I gotta ask, which is better....Mil or Moa??? Mac
I prefer a Milf.
Seriously though, Mil vs Moa, I prefer mil, but it really doesn’t matter. It’s just a number. Learn to use both the proper way and it can be unit of whatever and not matter. If you are doing wind math in your head, stick with one or the other. I would venture a guess that 99% of us don’t do wind math. My hunting rifle has a moa nf nxs, because I liked the reticle more than the mil version. My match style rifles have mil because I like the .2 mil wind holds. Honestly, I could hit the same percentage of targets with either one, so it really doesn’t matter. There are lots of other things to focus on more than mil or moa.
I was wondering how that contraption works looking at your pics, now I think I get it. Assuming a SFP scope, At max power the number of mils or MOA visible is what you have to hold. At exactly 1/2 power the number of available mils or MOA is twice what it appears to be and at min power 4x what is visible per the inverse relationship.
Can I assume you simply tighten the screw against the mag ring to lock it in place to preserve your ”hold ratio” (ratio actual mils available to visible Mils)?
There are some shooting sports, like airgun hunting and field target competition, and also F Class long range rifle, where people use really high magnification and SFP scopes. But for more normal levels of magnification (<20x) FFP makes more sense. And SFP is always indexed somewhere in the middle of the magnification range, but you can’t know for sure exactly what magnification you are at unless you are at the extreme high or low end of the magnification range. A small error in dialing in the magnification index mark on your scope can have a significant impact on your wind hold and clicks for elevation. You mentioned the Viper. I consider the Vortex Viper PST gen 2 to be the entry level PRS competition scope. I wouldn’t try to go cheaper than that. You can get some great deals on the EBR2C reticle now, since they replaced it with the EBR7C.
I have them on all my SFP 3.5x10 M3's with MOA tree ret's (an other scopes as well). No scope doubles at half of the max setting that I have ever seen. Once I test the scope on max power to make sure the ret subtends correctly there, I reduce power until the reading is half of the max then adjust the doubler stop to the power ring. On most Mk4s like mine it will be real close to 6.2X. Why Leupold never installed a de-dent for this is beyond me. This way I can use it at night w/o issue as I shoot a lot, an I mean a lot of subs at night. The doubler allows 400yd holds w/sub ammo, more than that depending target size I'll either drop to 3.5X or knob but, I hate adding up with the knobs anymore, it just takes extra time I normally don't have at these kinds of shoots.
I run my two SFPs on ARs using the same concept but make an index mark on the scope body to denote true half power...haven’t seen a mechanical mag stop like that before. And yes, a detent would have been nice but that makes too much sense.
For my precision stuff, I run Horus reticles as I hate dialing period.
For my precision stuff, I run Horus reticles as I hate dialing period.
All my rets are tree moa's save one IPHY MD-MOA none treed USO. Shooting small groups at long does not appeal to me at all. All my shooting is kill it an move as quickly as possible to the next one before it finds/kills you. One of the reasons we get creative with times no matter if it's a H/speed round at long or subs an sentry work, matches.
Yep, agree...practical shooting is much more appealing, minimizing the cognitive load expended to make hits. I base most of my set up and practice accordingly.
I prefer a 36 yard zero for my ARs SFP LPVOs, POA=POI at 300 and compensate accordingly for everything within. I’ll put targets at 7, 36, 150-200, 300 and then 500. I’ll shoot and see how quickly I can put rounds onto each target, using natural and man made barricades or obstacles to mix it up.
I’ll snap the ring to max power for the target at 4-500 and hold over per the drop value, allowing myself a little more time. still not much thought involved. I use paper and steel E types when running these drills.
For LR, I don’t shoot for groups either unless doing load testing. Mostly cold bore or unknown distance drills with no range finder.
Edit: haven’t noticed any my reticles being off to the extent it can be isolated as the source of my missed shots.
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