FFP vs SFP

[cliffy]

Which is really better? Take two rifle scope that are identical. Let's say a 3-21x50 this isn't any brand it is hypothetical. Both scopes have the same reticle, so the SFP scopes reticle with be correct at 21 power. Let say they have a Christmas tree reticle for hold overs and wind hold off.
What would be the pro and cons to each of them?

 

[Lowlight]

Front Focal Plane are better for dynamic shooting, using reticle holds

Second Focal Plane scopes tend to be stronger, so they used on 50s a lot, they are only accuracy reticle wise on one power, but if you map it you can use other powers that change the values, like 1/2 power will double the spacing on the reticle, 1 MOA is now 2 MOA

The pros all favor FFP except when it comes to the end user, some can't get past the reticle adjusting with magnification.

If you are shooting ELR a SFP is a smarter choice in a lot of ways, but everything else FFP is preferred.

LE still use SFP a lot because they want the reticle the same, however most of them are not shooting far so if they have open up the FOV by powering down, the full reticle makes them happier but the changes to the reticle don't matter, it's just an aiming point for them.

FFP scopes are more expensive they are harder to get right
SFP are more durable
FFP has the reticle correct 100%
SFP has reticle correct on 1 single magnification

 

[Cosmic338]

Which is really better? Take two rifle scope that are identical. Let's say a 3-21x50 this isn't any brand it is hypothetical. Both scopes have the same reticle, so the SFP scopes reticle with be correct at 21 power. Let say they have a Christmas tree reticle for hold overs and wind hold off.
What would be the pro and cons to each of them?

Edit: ^ What he said lol

Idk other than FFP keeps BDC the same through magnifications.

 

[cliffy]

At what power do you use most on you scopes?

 

[XTR]

RE: SFP uses.

For pure KD target shooting SFP is usually the choice because the reticles tend to be thinner, you don’t use the reticle for holding, and I think that in an already expensive scope they don’t raise the price.

for hunting, if your reticle is a SFP that subtends correctly at highest power they work well because if you are shooting far enough to need the reticle to hold off you are prob on high mag anyway. (Talking hunting scopes here, most of which are 16-18x or less on max) As LL noted, it’s easier to do a durable SFP and get it right.

the visual size of SFP reticles doesn’t change, so it equally visible at all magnification, FFP reticles maintain their size in relation to the target, so they grow and shrink with the magnification. An awesome FFP reticle at 25x may not be as useable at 5x.

 

[Gee Kay]

nothing wrong with hunting with ffp, power in and out and don't have to think, just pull the trigger.

 

[BigPrince]

This feels like the MOA vs Mils question.

I hunt with FFP just fine and prefer it for consistency.

 

[bonesaw00001]

Necro-post, but running 3-12x scope for targets out to 500 yards - SFP or FFP? How about spotting for a primary shooter through the scope? Thanks in advance!

 

[beetroot]

Necro-post, but running 3-12x scope for targets out to 500 yards - SFP or FFP? How about spotting for a primary shooter through the scope? Thanks in advance!

If targets 100% get FFP, no reason not to get FFP.

If hunting as well, then it's more of a debate.
With the right reticle the FFP is fine but the lack of decent reticles (visible at low magnification) makes it a harder decision.

In saying that there aren't even many 3-12 FFP scopes available anyway so you might not have much choice.
You may want to follow this thread if you are looking in the x-12 mag range.

Looking for a 12x FFP mil/mil (ideally grid) optic

I'm looking for an optic that is x-12 FFP (or even fixed power 12x) with a mil reticle and mil adjustments. Ideally a mil grid. The only alternative I have found that is still on the market is this Swampfox offering- https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/kentucky-long-series I'm not sure if these are...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Salinas]

I like FFP with an illuminated reticle. Helps on lower power settings as the aiming point can get washed out in low light or heavy woods.

 

[bonesaw00001]

If targets 100% get FFP, no reason not to get FFP.

If hunting as well, then it's more of a debate.
With the right reticle the FFP is fine but the lack of decent reticles (visible at low magnification) makes it a harder decision.

In saying that there aren't even many 3-12 FFP scopes available anyway so you might not have much choice.
You may want to follow this thread if you are looking in the x-12 mag range.

Looking for a 12x FFP mil/mil (ideally grid) optic

I'm looking for an optic that is x-12 FFP (or even fixed power 12x) with a mil reticle and mil adjustments. Ideally a mil grid. The only alternative I have found that is still on the market is this Swampfox offering- https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/kentucky-long-series I'm not sure if these are...

www.snipershide.com

Super helpful. I'm thinking about doing the sniper adventure challenge in 2024 which is basically a 50-70 mile adventure race with some shooting, so trying to optimize for a lightweight rifle.

US optics has the TS-12 in 3-12x which is only like 18 oz, and was between getting the SFP for 300 or FFP for 500ish. Sounds like the latter, unless I can find a better lightweight scope (had also considered the Razor LHT 4.5-22x FFP vs 3-15x SFP)

 

[beetroot]

Super helpful. I'm thinking about doing the sniper adventure challenge in 2024 which is basically a 50-70 mile adventure race with some shooting, so trying to optimize for a lightweight rifle.

US optics has the TS-12 in 3-12x which is only like 18 oz, and was between getting the SFP for 300 or FFP for 500ish. Sounds like the latter, unless I can find a better lightweight scope (had also considered the Razor LHT 4.5-22x FFP vs 3-15x SFP)

Ilya has done a few reviews on all three of those scopes, a bit of searching on here should get you most of what you need to know.
Heres a review that discusses that scope vs similar lower power scopes.


I've not done the Sniper challenge or anything simialr so can't make any sort of recommendation.

 

[HunterPass]

Super helpful. I'm thinking about doing the sniper adventure challenge in 2024 which is basically a 50-70 mile adventure race with some shooting, so trying to optimize for a lightweight rifle.

US optics has the TS-12 in 3-12x which is only like 18 oz, and was between getting the SFP for 300 or FFP for 500ish. Sounds like the latter, unless I can find a better lightweight scope (had also considered the Razor LHT 4.5-22x FFP vs 3-15x SFP)

I competed in the Sniper Adventure Challenge in 2021 and am competing again this year.
The rifle I am using this year is my profile picture and I have the Burris Signature HD 2-10x40mm SFP on it for $480 MSRP, you can probably find this discounted somewhere. There are a few reasons for this decision for the SAC.

First of all, it sits at 17.6 oz so once it's paired with lightweight rings it makes a big difference, ounces equal pounds. Second, a lifetime warranty with Burris means that if shit gets fucked it's no biggie and during the SAC, shit will get fucked in some way shape or form. Lastly, Competition Dynamics rates this as one of their easiest competitions marksmanship-wise. Anyone who shoots sniper matches consistently takes some level of offense to the targets you will see.

Needless to say, a 2-10 power is just fine for the SAC and if you need anything more, you are at the same time not that good and not that smart because you are adding heavier, more expensive glass for more points on shooting which will impede you more in the long run, when in reality you could just get better at whacking 10-inch plates at 300-700 yds.

 

[bonesaw00001]

I competed in the Sniper Adventure Challenge in 2021 and am competing again this year.
The rifle I am using this year is my profile picture and I have the Burris Signature HD 2-10x40mm SFP on it for $480 MSRP, you can probably find this discounted somewhere. There are a few reasons for this decision for the SAC.

First of all, it sits at 17.6 oz so once it's paired with lightweight rings it makes a big difference, ounces equal pounds. Second, a lifetime warranty with Burris means that if shit gets fucked it's no biggie and during the SAC, shit will get fucked in some way shape or form. Lastly, Competition Dynamics rates this as one of their easiest competitions marksmanship-wise. Anyone who shoots sniper matches consistently takes some level of offense to the targets you will see.

Needless to say, a 2-10 power is just fine for the SAC and if you need anything more, you are at the same time not that good and not that smart because you are adding heavier, more expensive glass for more points on shooting which will impede you more in the long run, when in reality you could just get better at whacking 10-inch plates at 300-700 yds.

Are you the long rifle shooter or the "carbine"? Wasn't sure if folks were running bolt rifles as the carbine shooter.

 

[Scopeye]

Super helpful. I'm thinking about doing the sniper adventure challenge in 2024 which is basically a 50-70 mile adventure race with some shooting, so trying to optimize for a lightweight rifle.

US optics has the TS-12 in 3-12x which is only like 18 oz, and was between getting the SFP for 300 or FFP for 500ish. Sounds like the latter, unless I can find a better lightweight scope (had also considered the Razor LHT 4.5-22x FFP vs 3-15x SFP)

Buy the USO in SFP unless you're fine with not being able to actually see their non illuminated FFP version's reticle until you crank it up to at least 8x-10x magnification.

Around $300 is the last sale price I last saw them for the FFP USO TS12 at either EuroOptic or Scopelist only few months ago maybe it's still $299 for their FFP. Don't get ripped off buying Chinese made scopes regardless of brand label.

I have the much cheaper Vector Veyron brand version of the Chinese USO TS12 scope in both FFP $140 and SFP $100 and also the $150 Discovery Optics version as well. Very slight differences are the reticle and minor cosmetics.

A buddy of mine owns the $500 USO FFP version who actually bought it for over $500 against my advice not to being an overpriced Chinese Vector Veyron or Discovery VT3. It's literally the same Chinese scope. USO has a lifetime warranty while the Discovery and Vector branded versions only have a 3 and 5 year warranty. All of the FFP version's are impossible to pick up their reticles on lower magnification below 10x or 8x if you have young eyes with perfect vision.

IMHO the Japan made Vortex Razor LHTs are way too overpriced for what they really are even when purchased at their $800-$1000 3-15x/4.5-22x sale prices. You're better off with some better quality light weight Chinese made scopes at least for better glass and turrets such as the Burris Signature HD E3 illuminated 3-15x (cheapest I seen it was on sale for $349.99 free shipping at Sportsman's few months ago) or Hawke Frontier 3-15x illuminated ($349.99 at Cameraland on sale and $399.99 4-20x model few months ago). These are around 20 oz or less. The Hawke Frontier has about the same image quality as the Razor LHT and the Burris Signature HD has better image quality than the Razor LHT and more like a Leupold VX5HD. There's several others who were disappointed in the overall quality or lack thereof with their Razor LHTs who already posted their dissatisfaction on this forum.

If you're going to actually buy the Chinese USO TS12 anyway don't get ripped off knowing they go on sale for $299 (FFP). After owning and using the other brand labeled twin versions they're ok for a 22 or air gun and not for medium to long distance shooting. Benefits are compactness like a UTG compact (not that good) with comparable optics under 20 oz and close focus 10 yard parallax.

Leupold VX5HD is another better option than the Razor LHTs especially with the fire dot duplex and ZL turret, now the Leupold would actually be worth paying regular price for but can be bought with a discount from places such as DVOR or Optics Planet with coupon code by signing up for their email or text notifications. Other places may have some other discount incentives for Leupold as well when you search the net. Maybe even try Sport Optics with their 13% off regular prices optics.

There's also Meopta Optika 5 4-20x illuminated Z Plus reticle which literary smokes the image quality on the Razor LHT. Made in Europe by same mfg as original Zeiss scopes such as their Conquest. Only downside is no zero stop and slightly heavier than your 20 oz want. Price can be "haggle down" to around $375 at Scopelist or Optics Planet maybe even cheaper if Sport Optics still have their 16% off European scopes. $459 regular price and this one's also actually worth paying regular price for but you really don't need to. I think Cameraland also sells them where prices are negotiable as well but not sure if they can do $375 with free shipping though so best to phone them. Image quality in Meoptas are similar to Zeiss V4 and V6 level.

B&H Photo had Meopta Optika 5 2-10x last recent sale were for $299 and $349 depending of reticle and side focus parallax options. Burris Signature HD 2-10x last sale was around $200 I forget exactly from where though since I don't normally look to buy 10x and prefer higher magnification with at least side focus parallax so I just made a mental note on the price since the Chinese Burris Signature HD scopes are in fact nearly good in comparison to Japan quality scopes from LOW.

 

[HunterPass]

Are you the long rifle shooter or the "carbine"? Wasn't sure if folks were running bolt rifles as the carbine shooter.

I am the long rifle shooter running a bolt. Haven't seen anyone run a carbine as a bolt but I have seen gassers as the long rifle.