F T/R Competition Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

I hate to say it... but since when has what the military fields have beans to do with civilian competition rules?

By my interpretation of them, *nothing* that isn't actively fielded would be allowed - no .260 Rem, no 6.5x47L, no 7WSM, no .338 Edge, braked/canned or otherwise. You want to play hi-speed/lo-drag, then go all the way - limit yourself to the same gear, not just stuff that looks like it with all the little perks of a full selection of civilian calibers with custom chambers.

On the flip side... I don't see any M4s allowed under the rules for NRA HP Rifle or CMP - at least not in the 'Service Rifle' category.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On the flip side... I don't see any M4s allowed under the rules for NRA HP Rifle or CMP - at least not in the 'Service Rifle' category.

</div></div>

No, but...3.1

(d) U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm M-110 series

And while the M4 is not yet recognized, from the CMP rule book...

6.2.3 U.S. Rifl e, Caliber 5.56mm, M16
The rifl e must be an M16A2 or M16A4 rifl e issued by the U.S. Armed Forces or
a commercial rifl e of the same type and caliber.....

(14) The M16A4 quad rail or commercial equivalent hand-guard may be used.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved by the NRA HP Committee.

All,

I was invited to join in on the NRA High Power Committee’s conference call to discuss the possibility of Field Precision Rifle Class (FPR) aka F-Tactical becoming an official classification in F-Class.
</div></div>

Jumping back to page 1 of this discussion and Vu's original post. This new class is being created under F-Class which has an established set of rules and requirements that have evolved over time with and without the NRA. Sounds like the NRA is open to allowing an even more restricted class under F-Class to accommodate field rifles with a lower weight limit, scope power and bipod restrictions to people who feel disadvantaged competing against FTR or F-Open rifles.

The tension seems to be that people don't like they can't modify the existing F-Class program far enough to meet all their wants (IE Muzzle Brakes and Suppressors) and if the whole program and all the people who participate can't change to suit them, then F-Class is unreasonable and participants in the game have various health issues associated with the feminine gender.

So the options are really simple, you can be a part of this new field rifle class that Vu has been working on or don't be a part of it. You don't always get what you want and if your only response is to insult people who don't bend to your whims, perhaps you might not be wanted anyway.

If you want the NRA to have a completely separate shooting discipline that accommodates your wants, then put your energy into getting that new class created and then work on getting ranges to let you have range and schedule time to do. Of course, realize that just because the NRA creates a class doesn't mean a range will allow it under it's own set of rules or has time for it.

My home range doesn't allow the 50 BMG, 408 Cheytec or 338 Lapua for valid safety reasons that could impact the very future of club. The club could make improvements, but is not going to spend $50,000 to make them to suit a small number of shooters.

Schedule wise, I know at my home range, 3 Sundays every month are already taken by existing scheduled matches and taking the 4th Sunday for another match would be like moving a mountain since it impacts non-competition members and their access to the club on a weekend day. We already have had multiple other disciplines beg for the club to expand to have HP silhouette and 1000 yard benchrest and neither has succeeded even though the President of the club loves one of those disciplines.

Vu, wish you the best in getting your program together.





 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

At Sac Valley calif the tactical shooters do great .Andrew L won last months f/open 1K with a sparten 7 saum tactical rifle. He didnt need a special class. Nimo and killshot have been winning most of the f/tr matches this last year both shooting rifles under this new class. So why a new class as these shooters win under current rules? Do they want the palma targets with there scopes and less competition?
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pthfndr-CA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On the flip side... I don't see any M4s allowed under the rules for NRA HP Rifle or CMP - at least not in the 'Service Rifle' category.

</div></div>

No, but...3.1

(d) U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm M-110 series

And while the M4 is not yet recognized, from the CMP rule book...

6.2.3 U.S. Rifl e, Caliber 5.56mm, M16
The rifl e must be an M16A2 or M16A4 rifl e issued by the U.S. Armed Forces or
a commercial rifl e of the same type and caliber.....

(14) The M16A4 quad rail or commercial equivalent hand-guard may be used. </div></div>

What is your point? It is no secret that the DMR rifles are NM rifles with quad rails on them.

And if you think the 762 helps in across the course Service Rifle competition, you have not been around the sport.

The support of the quasi-M110 type rifle is really aimed at NRA Long Range shooting. Once the rule passed, the AMU immediately went to this platform for their long range Service Rifles.

Still don't see any M4s, Mk 12s, or Mk 18s in the rules per Monty's point.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do they want the palma targets with there scopes and less competition? </div></div>

2011-12-03_10-24-25_663.jpg


Well, after hearing the rhetoric bandied about on both sides of the debate, I figured I'd see what the response really was like (somewhere besides Sacramento where the concept is fairly entrenched). The match I chose was the Arizona State Palma Championships, there were ~65 Palma shooters there, plus close to 20 F-Class shooters. For the record, the F-Class shooters were NOT local bumpkins, amongst their numbers were 5 US Team members, plus German Salazar; a very respectable skill set!

The rifle I brought to the match was a bone stock Savage tactical rifle (model 10 BAST), see picture. It has a 24" barrel - WITH a muzzle break, and a 10 round mag. I was running a 5.5-22x Nightforce NXS scope on top, pushing 155 grain bullets out of the muzzle at ~2920 fps. I fed my rounds out of the stock magazine, and shot off a folding, "tactical" style LRA bipod.

The match was fired at 800, 900, and 1000 yards (typical Palma course), 15(2) shots per yard line. The conditions were moderate, switchy tailwinds, 5-10 MPH, and ~40°F. The target was the standard long-range F-Class target (5" X-ring).

The results: I was initially rather skeptical about how my "sniper" rig would run against some of the best in the game and their dedicated long-range F-T/R rifles. For starters, their 30" barrels were pushing their projectiles up to 200 fps faster than I could go with the 24" barreled, magazine fed Savage. A few of them were running heavies (fast 185 grain bullets, ~2850 fps). In practice, the Savage was very competitive, shooting a 147-8X at 800 yards. This would have placed me in 5th place for the yard line. At 900, conditions were nastier, so I shot a 145-3X. This effort would again have put me in 5th place. At 1000, the conditions were pretty tough, with most of the F-T/R ranks shedding plenty of points (the exception being German Salazar, only dropped 2 points!). My 133-1X effort would have seen me in 7th place. For my string though, I was experimenting, playing with the wind, shooting through switches, etc. that I probably wouldn't have done in a serious match. Overall, for that day, I'd have come in 7th. Against some of the better F-T/R competitors out there, not a shabby result.

The response: Generally, the response to the muzzle-braked magazine-fed rifle was very positive. There was initially some trepidation about the "evil" muzzle brake, but once I got going, it was immediately apparent that it wasn't that bad (we did joke that the F-Open guys next to me shouldn't put a round in their rifles while I was shooting for fear that my brake would set off their .75 oz triggers! To be fair, the match director squadded me down on the far end of the line.

Overall, I was impressed at how competitive the stubby, mag fed tactical rifle with it's (relatively) light scope was when dumped in with the sharks and their dedicated long-range rifles. There is NO reason in the world why this proposed F-Tac class should be using a massive Palma target as a crutch.

Darrell
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is NO reason in the world why this proposed F-Tac class should be using a massive Palma target as a crutch.
</div></div>

+100

We had a mid-range Fullbore match about a month ago... the two top shooters were shooting GAP-built .260 Rem tac rifles, NXS 5.5-22x scopes and Harris bipods. The F-Class center didn't seem to be unduly hampering their scores...
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is NO reason in the world why this proposed F-Tac class should be using a massive Palma target as a crutch.
</div></div>

+100

We had a mid-range Fullbore match about a month ago... the two top shooters were shooting GAP-built .260 Rem tac rifles, NXS 5.5-22x scopes and Harris bipods. The F-Class center didn't seem to be unduly hampering their scores... </div></div>

Just to clarify something.

In the FPR proposal Vu wrote up, it specified shooting on the F Class targets.

Matt is just trying to stir up things because at Sac Valley, a couple times they had the tac rifle people squaded on the same target as the Palma shooters. That was the MDs decision. Not something the tactical people asked for.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

Nice shooting Darrell. This FPR thing could be a good thing, I understand the no brakes. I have rifles with breaks, one of them would fit the FPR bill nicely. I would happily screw the brake off to shoot a match with it I would otherwise not be able to. I personally would rather have no brakes. I think the weight restriction should be lower than FTR by a good bit also. Just my .02
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

I think a Tactical Open F class is a great idea. I shoot traditional NRA coat and sling 1k and Palma, I find it more enjoyable than F class. I shot double at the Indy state LR match 2x1000 traditional and a 2x1000 Ftr, F class just got borring. The very first season I started shooting I did shoot only F class, was stuck in F open as my GAprecision 7mmwsm in a A5 stock forced me in F open. Was fun but wasn't comparable to the belly benchresters with their rests. The idea of F-TR without the cartridge restrictions is great. I've always seen F-TR as bassically the F class version of Palma.

The comments of brake or no break I understand how a break will allow more females into the sport but my girlfriend shot FTR at the KY state Long Range match using my Palma rifle with a scope. There was recoil as the load is 185gr LRBT with 44gr of Varget but she was able to handle it pretty well. At some ranges such as Atterbury or Camp Perry for the Bob Wright where our turnouts aren't that great you can spread out and breaks would not be a problem. But if you are shooting at Scott Mountain at Knox where you only have 12 points or up at Perry during Nationals where there are alot more people me personally would find it very anoying unless you could seperate by some space or a barrier. I know my TRG-42 in 338LM would not be pleasant for a shooter next to me.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

my set up at the moment :
rem 700 sps varmint 308
choate ultimate sniper stock
9-13 bipod
4x16x42 counter sniper scope
weighs in at 14.5lbs

I also would be interested in this class preferably with breaks allowed
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

Breaks are considered a distraction to shooters on either side of the competitor with the break. NRA will not allow them for prone High Power or Fullbore events. The debris blown all over the shooters next to the offending shooter is the deal breaker. It has nothing to do with noise. Suppressors or true flash hiders should be allowed, IMO.

Bob C
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So rules-wise, what would be the point of these tac matches? Unknown distance targets? Only scoring first shot at a target, or scoring the first shot at a higher rate than follow up shots? </div></div>

The point is to hit the X ring as many times as possible.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: loaders_loft</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So rules-wise, what would be the point of these tac matches? Unknown distance targets? Only scoring first shot at a target, or scoring the first shot at a higher rate than follow up shots? </div></div>

The point is to hit the X ring as many times as possible. </div></div>

Honestly, that's kind of lame. I would love an "official" match format that concentrated on unknown distances and first shot hits.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

Good News...I have two thoughts

1 For this class its no big deal to unscrew the suppressor
2 Limit the bipods to true tactical bipods


My Gun: 14.2 lbs

Stock MacMillan A-5
Barrel Gap #7
Cal. 6.5x47
Scope 8-32
Base Badger 20 MOA
Rings Badger
Bipod Atlas
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

After discussions with our shooters, they would prefer to keep their brakes and suppressors over a recognized classification. Although a worthy goal, one of the main items that draws shooters to our matches is the ability to use the same equipment they use in tactical matches.
Also, we like the ability to change up the match parameters without having to conform to a rigid set of rules.
We will continue to monitor progress, but for now, we choose to follow a different path.
Best of luck.
Rick
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

I started shooting long range at Quantico, pretty much anything was OK, some folks followed F Class rules, others shot weapons that mirrored what they were using at "Work". I do not care for ratings, rankings or anything of the sort, I just want access to a 1K range.

When I moved back to Indiana I was not allowed to even use my suppressor for matches. I shot one match without my can since I was already there at the match.

For me If I cant shoot my modern gun with the suppressor, I might as well just shoot my 1874 Sharps. And that is what I have done for the last 3.5 years.

I do not want to turn this into a NRA bashing thread, but between this and NRA making my Muzzleloading club pay for "Gun Show" insurance for our pre 1840 Antique Artisans show, well Im glad I let my NRA membership lapse. There is no value added to me, by them.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

I am glad that something is being changed...

As for the breaks.... That's a interesting one. I shoot My 338 LM at matches quite often, I have had a match director b**ch and whine that its to loud and I have been told that they were going to ban it at matches at this club if he received complaints from shooter to my left and right. I was told this by the match director. So a break on mine at that club wouldn't happen. I chose to argue the point that for F-Open it's with in the .33 cal.

I shoot TR all the time now but if this TPR/F-Tac starts I will gladly go to this class. Not like its going to make a difference in the rifles I shoot.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

A few observations about this matter. I am a sling shooter in Alaska and for our Mid-Range and Long Range matches the sling shooters are any rifle, any sight, and the F-Class is mainly Open, with a few F-TR. A number of the Open people shoot off from a bipod, with Tacticle type rifles, but they are in calibers other than .223 or .308. This would give them a better venue for shooting against other shooters not using a bench type rest. We are normally well split between sling shooters and F-Class. I also shoot at another club (no matches) where there are no restrictions on Brakes, and even though they are spaced futher apart than at matches, when there are more than a few with calibers over .223, they are blowing other peoples stuff around. The problem is not the noise, but the side blast. I am almost 70 and I shoot a .284, with 180 grain bullets that weights about 14.5 pounds, with a sling, and I am a Master in Mid-Range and a High Master in Long Range and am about 5'7" and 170 lbs, so don't tell me that you young guys need a brake to be able to shoot. For the women and kids that need it, there are many 6mm's they could shoot that are compititive, and out to 600, the .223 is.
We have tried getting the Military to shoot with us, but after some of their Snipers came to one Long Range match and only one of them was able to do fairly well, we only get some individuals who come on their own, and the official responce is that they don't have the time for that training.
Sorry for bending some peoples noses, but I get tired of some of the wimps that cry, instead of doing what is needed.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AK Sgt Maj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I shoot a .284, with 180 grain bullets that weights about 14.5 pounds, with a sling, and I am a Master in Mid-Range and a High Master in Long Range and am about 5'7" and 170 lbs, so don't tell me that you young guys need a brake to be able to shoot. For the women and kids that need it, there are many 6mm's they could shoot that are compititive, and out to 600, the .223 is. </div></div>

First off, kudos to you for still being active shooting! Glad to hear your club had a good balanced turnout up there.

Second... you do realize that there is a big difference between the way the body absorbs recoil when slung up and the shooter and rifle become 'one' integrated platform, vs. the way the gun recoils against the shoulder when held in a normal bipod supported position? There is a reason Palma rifles have almost no recoil pad (skinny 1/4" pad more for traction against the shoulder patch on your shooting coat) as compared to what you see on most other centerfire rifles of calibers larger than .243 Win.

Comparing the two simply because you are comfortable with your setup is not necessarily valid. The skinny recoil pad on my 13 lb Palma rifle works fine when slung up... with 155s @ 3000. Same recoil pad on my 17-3/4 lb F-TR rifle with 185s scooting along @ 2800 is decidedly less comfortable when shot from a 'pod.

Monte
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

Yes I do know. I have shot off from a bipod, but prefer the sling. It is legal to use a sling with a bipod, but no one seems to do it. The thing that I was really trying to show was that so many of the people want everything to be easy. We have the same problem, when it rains or the wind blows to hard, half of the people don't come out and the "Tactical Shooters" come out with their high dollar equipment and when they find out that they have to work at it to get good scores, they don't come back. We try to encourage all new shooters, but the ones who come back are the ones with backbone who are willing to work to become good. Not as many as there used to be.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

Remington 700 Tact AAC-SD

Stock configuration: Bell and carlson Light Tactical
Optic: Vortex Viper PST 6-24 x 50 FFP MRAD
Barrel contour: Remington Heavy Barrel
Caliber: .308
Mounting system, Rings, Base: Burris Z Signature rings on Warne 20 MOA base.
Bi-Pod: Caldwell with pivot and notched legs.

Weighs in at 12.5 lbs.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AK Sgt Maj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...when it rains or the wind blows to hard, half of the people don't come out... and when they find out that they have to work at it to get good scores, they don't come back.</div></div>

Trust me... I know *exactly* what you're talking about there. Sometimes I think people seem to forget that this *is* an outdoor sport (within reason - I'd rather not lay in a mud puddle and I draw the line at laying in snow drifts), and that an accurate rifle, however much it costs, is only part of the battle here.

Still... I hope the F-PR thing continues to grow. I like that it started as a local thing to meet shooter demand. I may not like all the stated restrictions, but I still have the option to shoot straight-up F/TR or F/Open if it bothers me.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class Concept Approved!

Sorry for being a little cranky, but I agree with you about the F-PR. We have 2 shooters who like their 06's and want to use bipods, so they have to shoot Open, when they really have no advantage over a .308 and with a class like that they wouldn't have to be up against the high proformance calibers shooting off from a benchrest type rest. We have others who use some other calibers also, but they have a tougher time beating the .308 and .223's at Mid-Range when they are on a bipod. Have you talked to Trey Tuggle, at the NRA? He is their Tactical person and he was a Seal Sniper before and is interested in any of these Tactical type shooting items.
 
Agreed. That's a fucked up idea.

Vu,

A Field Precision F-class that restricts or prohibits a brake or suppressor pretty much eliminates the next generation of United States military sniper weapons (USSOCOM PSR; US Army PSR and CERSR; and the USMC extended-range sniper rifles).

Welcome to 2011.