Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

[Jayne]

Finally finished loading all my ammo for my first RO class. ~550 rounds in FC brass, ~300 rounds in BHA brass, all once fired, full length resized and trimmed to length. CCIBR2 primers. 168gr SMKs. All done single-stage.

40.9gr Benchmark in FC
41.1gr Benchmark in BHA

both run over the chrono at the same speed (~2600) so hopefully they'll shoot about the same out of the rifle. That's the case at 100 yards, but I have no idea past that.

Kinda done reloading for a bit.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Finally finished loading all my ammo for my first RO class. ~550 rounds in FC brass, ~300 rounds in BHA brass, all once fired, full length resized and trimmed to length. CCIBR2 primers. 168gr SMKs. All done single-stage.

40.9gr Benchmark in FC
41.1gr Benchmark in BHA

both run over the chrono at the same speed (~2600) so hopefully they'll shoot about the same out of the rifle. That's the case at 100 yards, but I have no idea past that.

Kinda done reloading for a bit.

</div></div>


Hell....you haven't even started.....When you get back from RO and realize how much you have learned...and how much more you have to learn....THAT is when you spend way too much time in the relaoding cave...

 

[flyboy]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

If your really that tired of it, just send those time consuming rounds my way. I won't even charge you to get rid of them...

Have fun at RO.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

Well you have loaded 175smk, your gonna be subsonic at 1k

 

[dvdt]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

Wow, I bet that took some time! I just loaded 50 up this morning and it took me forever.

I'm jealous, I want to goto a RO class so bad. I'm hoping late this year or in 2011. I've been doing the online stuff and it's drastically improved my shooting.


How are you planning on shipping that to TX ? I'd be afraid that if I shipped loose ammo like that it would get jacked up in shipping? That and UPS says it can't be free or loose.

Oh, and why the different amounts of powder in the different cases ?

 

[eleaf]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

I had plans to go to the April RO class, but a recent heart attack has postponed those plans. Hopefully they'll offer another in the Fall that I can go to.

Have fun!

 

[Lindy]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

Your health is more important than shooting. Take care, and come another time.

Besides, my statistics on CPR are only a 50 percent survival rate...

 

[flyboy]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your health is more important than shooting. Take care, and come another time.

Besides, my statistics on CPR are only a 50 percent survival rate...

</div></div>

You're really that hard on the students.?

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dvdt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How are you planning on shipping that to TX ? </div></div>

They're coming to CA for a class so for once I just have to toss the gear in the Jeep and drive.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and why the different amounts of powder in the different cases ? </div></div>

The volume of the various brands differs so it takes different amounts of powder to get the same velocity out of them.

I'm sure it's not as good as just having all the same brass, but I didn't have enough FC so I did the best I could do. At my skill level it probably doesn't matter.

 

[idpasteve]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

168's ARE going to be subsonic @ 1k -

Better load some 175's also...

You only thought you were done loading...

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idpasteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">168's ARE going to be subsonic @ 1k -

Better load some 175's also... </div></div>

What's the problem with subsonic at 1k? Does it get wildly inaccurate when it drops that slow or just lack power?

And on a practical note, does it matter for the first classes (PR1+2)?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

ooooooooh....i see a very steep learning curve.

 

[lanwickum]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

It is ok, a 308 stops at 800 anyway.

 

[idpasteve]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

in order of questions...
1. VERY inaccurate as the round goes trans-sonic
2. see 1
3. yes

 

[eleaf]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

I was actually recommended to <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> bring hand loads to RO when I inquired. It was recommended to me by 2 people, LL being one of them, that factory loads were the best bet for a course like this unless one is VERY experienced with hand loads and knows exactly how those loads will perform, especially at distance.

The answer was very simple: bad ammo, for whatever reason be it repeatability, bad choices, bad components, etc will ruin a perfectly good course.

How I understand it, the 168s perform perfectly well until about 600-700 yards where they start to tumble and are practically useless by the time they hit 1000 yards. They certainly are not accurate and not very repeatable at that range. I don't have any experience at that range, but I have done extensive reading on it. For that reason alone, I decided to go with the 175 grain SMKs for all of my loads so that I only have 1 set of DOPE to keep rather than short(er) range/long range stats for different bullets.

I hope all goes well, but I might consider asking someone at RO about it before you spend a ton of cash only to have your new ammo not allow you to enjoy the entire course, especially since your components vary (different brass with different powder rates) enough to perhaps cause repeatability issues.

 

[eleaf]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your health is more important than shooting. Take care, and come another time.

Besides, my statistics on CPR are only a 50 percent survival rate...

</div></div>

Agreed and thank you.

 

[mrgreentie]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!



Aight...so... I'm loading .308 175smks, with 43gr of Varget and getting 2615fps outta them, am I gonna be subsonic @ 1,000 yards???


You guys got me nervous! I'm heading to Montana for a training class and need to shoot out to 1,000 yards, regularly.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class

Maybe. Go to jbmballistics.com and run the numbers. I ran your 175 smk with .243 g7 bc at velocity 2615 at sea level and it shows subsonic just below 1000 yards. However, altitude, temp and pressure will vary this. Where are you going, what is the altitude and expected temperature? Then rerun the results. At only 2000 feet in elevation this round is not subsonic at 1000 yards.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

You'll be fine with the 175 SMKs at that velocity. The 168 SMK is a singularly ill-behaved bullet in the transonic region, because the angle on the boattail is too steep.

The 175 SMK is not - they transition pretty gracefully. I was shooting them yesterday under conditions where they were in the transonic region at 1000 yards, and they were still consistent and predictable.

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

If 168gr that bad, perhaps they should change the info they send out to specify exactly what you'll need instead of just "308 rifle or other short action caliber capable of one minute of angle accuracy"?

In any case, I'm running with what I've got. If I can't do the 1k stuff so be it. All I care about is getting a solid foundation to work from and having them remove any bad habits I may have already formed trying to learn on my own. Good quick hits on stuff up to 250 yards is all I really care about anyway.

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was actually recommended to <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> bring hand loads to RO when I inquired. </div></div>

I asked about hand loads on the phone and they said no problem as long as I wasn't doing something stupid like running them super hot.

If I can't trust my loads to work right in a class, why would I trust them to work right any other time?

 

[eleaf]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayne</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was actually recommended to <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> bring hand loads to RO when I inquired. </div></div>

I asked about hand loads on the phone and they said no problem as long as I wasn't doing something stupid like running them super hot.

If I can't trust my loads to work right in a class, why would I trust them to work right any other time? </div></div>

It wasn't as if I was forbidden, but that I would minimize the potential for problems when there is zero margin of error for problems if I brought some factory match ammo rather than reloads.

When at home you have time to work out any load issues you may have. If a load doesn't perform well at xxx yards, you can go home and alter it and all you've lost is a handful of bullets. When at a course, you don't. You have to work with what you have, and if what you have presents any issues, you could lose out on a portion (or more) of the course because you find yourself dicking with your ammo. "The last thing you want is to have a course ruined because of ammo" (those exact words were said by LL and NOMAD when I asked their advice on potential loads to bring to a RO course).

If for any reason whatsoever your ammo isn't repeatable, I imagine that much of the course could go to waste because you won't be able to keep track of your DOPE. You have already disclosed that you are using different brass and powder charges. Though you might get the same velocity from your chrono at 10', there are still likely differences in those loads that might cause repeatability issues at distance.

With your loads, about which others have chimed in including the quite knowledgeable Lindy, you will find that you have issues with the 168 SMKs past about 600 yards (give or take). Those bullets do strange things (so I read over and over and over).

I'm not trying to piss on your feet here. I know exactly how much a RO course cost (nevermind the logistics of getting there, lodging, food etc), and I would hate to see your course ruined because of ammo.

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not trying to piss on your feet here. I know exactly how much a RO course cost (nevermind the logistics of getting there, lodging, food etc), and I would hate to see your course ruined because of ammo. </div></div>

Understood, and I appreciate the input. It's just sometimes hard to admit to having to change plans. My wife is going to be plenty upset if I tell her I have to go buy MORE ammo when I just dropped down on all those components and the federal 168s.

I had even managed to put her to work cleaning primer pockets to help speed up the loading process (she was motivated to help me get my loading gear out of the TV room).

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

OK, I PMed with LL real quick like and confirmed, my 168gr choice was not correct.

At least I know now instead of in class.

 

[eleaf]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, I PMed with LL real quick like and confirmed, my 168gr choice was not correct.

At least I know now instead of in class.
</div></div>

Booyah!

Knowing now is a much better alternative to the WTF moment you'd have when the 168s take a shit down range. You should be able to get 175s for a decent price at Midway right now. You can get a case of 500 bullets for $140.

A bunch of work is involved ahead but there is both time and choices.

You could:
Pull all of the bullets, put them back in a box and reuse them later when long range (600+ yards) isn't in the cards. Then put all of your powder back for reuse. Resize your brass (neck only should do fine), reseat with 175s and powder.

Or

Shoot all of your new 168s and get some solid trigger time before your RO class, reprocess brass and reload with 175s as you shoot (of course that would necessitate buying more powder and primers too).

Or, and this is the most expensive but perhaps best option

Buy factory ammo and suck up the huge cost. I had plans to go to RO in April which have been postponed, and I sucked up and bought 700 rounds of Black Hills Match ammo which uses SMK 175 BTHP and is as good as you'll find, especially for the price. This way you know everything is uniform to within a more than acceptable tolerance, and everything should be very repeatable.

Keep us posted on how you handle it.

 

[orkan]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

On the topic of reloads, I must slightly disagree with some here.

I too will be heading to rifles only this year, and I'll be bringing 100% handloads to shoot.

Factory ammo is repeatable to within tactical shooting specification. No doubt, black hills match, and FGMM will both be MOA or better out of just about any gun. However, you won't see many competitions won with factory rounds where accuracy is the key factor in victory.

A properly worked load, developed specifically for your rifle is in a different league from factory loads. However, you must take great care to perform all steps required on EACH round exactly the same to achieve this consistently. I am 100% confident in my reloading ability, so I am very confident bringing my handloads. I will be shooting a thousand or so rounds prior to the class with my chosen load and rifle to further my confidence.

However, if you are not confident in your reloading abilities to produce EVERY round to specification... then I echo what has been said here. Lay down the green and get the factory ammo.

 

[eleaf]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the topic of reloads, I must slightly disagree with some here.

I too will be heading to rifles only this year, and I'll be bringing 100% handloads to shoot.

Factory ammo is repeatable to within tactical shooting specification. No doubt, black hills match, and FGMM will both be MOA or better out of just about any gun. However, you won't see many competitions won with factory rounds where accuracy is the key factor in victory.

A properly worked load, developed specifically for your rifle is in a different league from factory loads. However, you must take great care to perform all steps required on EACH round exactly the same to achieve this consistently. I am 100% confident in my reloading ability, so I am very confident bringing my handloads. I will be shooting a thousand or so rounds prior to the class with my chosen load and rifle to further my confidence.

However, if you are not confident in your reloading abilities to produce EVERY round to specification... then I echo what has been said here. Lay down the green and get the factory ammo. </div></div>

Without a doubt. There is no question as to whether hand loads are often better than factory loads if prepared properly. But, as you said, if there is a problem in the preparation in loading 500+ rounds, your course can/will be fucked.

 

[orkan]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

Very much agreed. If you believe there is a chance you could screw up, you should buy factory.

Each individual is different though. For me, I spend countless hours in load development. Countless more making sure my reloading process is concise and proper. I'm one of those guys that weighs his varget down to the granule.

My reloading technique is a large part of my shooting process. I probably spend 3x as much time reloading as I do shooting... if not more. Hence why I need to go to rifles only!

I'm not discounting what you fellas are saying. Just offering a different viewpoint.

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!


I've got a rifle with a barrel that's too short, factory and handloaded ammo with the wrong bullet, and who knows what other issues are lurking with the rest of my gear.

I think at this point I'm going to fold and only be out my deposit (vs. more $$$ in ammo, the rest of the class fee, lodging, meals and the week of missed work).

I'll just keep working on the on-line training until I know enough to take advantage of a real RO class.

 

[Short Round]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

How short is your barrel?

There were guys here shooting short barrels to 1k. Heck there was one post where they took a saw to a rifle taking a couple inches off at a time on the range and shot it to a thousand.

I don't know the load they used but somebody will remember that post. I was skeptical but there were links to video too.

That said, you could pull the bullets, dump the powder back, and recharge and cap with 175's.


Then again, knowing when to regroup and then doing so is a sign of a sane and mature person. No one knows your situation better than you.

 

[eleaf]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

There are documented studies of guys who shoot 18" barrels out to 1K no problem. Barrel length does not affect accuracy, just velocity (which can be accounted for in other ways).

http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/
http://www.sniperschool.com/barrel-length-revisited/

As posted before, only you know best, but if you can make it work, do it. I'd bet you won't be disappointed and you'll almost certainly learn a metric shit ton of stuff about shooting.

 

[orkan]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

My 18" 308 gets to 1000 jut fine.

You are right for not going if your head isn't in it though. Nothing worse as an instructor to try and teach someone who's head isn't in the game.

However, if you truly want to learn... then step up to the plate and LEARN. Just because you are wobbly out of the gate, doesn't mean you won't finish the race.

Shooting is the singular most rewarding activity I can think of... and to deny yourself the pursuit just because of a few early errors would be a shame. We will be glad to help you.

 

[paulyosh]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

Jayne, something else to consider is that we won't be spending the entire time at 1k; in fact, I *think* it's only part of day 4, and all of day 5 that we'll be on the 1k range. Vu had posted the range scheduling either here or at NCPPRC, but I couldn't find it right away. I'll try to dig it up.

So, the 168gr loads will be fine for most of the class (steel range is only 550 yards or so); if you could just load or buy some 175gr for the long-range stuff, you'll be fine. CMP has a wicked deal on FGMM 175gr right now...

 

[Rob01]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

You're crazy if you don't go to the class. You will learn tons of info even if you do not make it to 1000. Shooting to 1000 doesn't make you a good hooter. Shooting fundamentals do and you will learn those and shoot out as far as you can with what you have. You will probably be fine for most all of the class and you might be surprised with your 168s.

Don't miss out on the class.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

I have not gone to RO, so I can't speak with personal experience. But if the class is anything like the online training, my guess is that the training will be more mental than mechanical. Life is too short to miss this opportunity for a class nearby. I suggest you spend some time PMing Jacob or Frank about your issues and take the advise they give you. If they think you should wait...I'd wait. If they give you a GTG with a minor gear reset, then, by all means, GO!! Maybe you'll make it to Texas down the trail for a "real" RO class, but you may not. Go with what you have.

.002

 

[Lindy]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

"Successful application of the precision rifle is a lot more about thinking than it is about shooting." -- Jacob Bynum, Director, Rifles Only

 

[Rob01]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Successful application of the precision rifle is a lot more about thinking than it is about shooting." -- Jacob Bynum, Director, Rifles Only
</div></div>

Now read it again.

 

[sourceofuncertainty]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulyosh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CMP has a wicked deal on FGMM 175gr right now...
</div></div>

Got a link perchance? Last time I looked CMP didn't sell .308 at all, let alone FGMM 175. Or maybe CMP means something other than what I'm thinking (Civilian Marksmanship Program).

I'm interested because I'm also signed up for the Sacramento RO class and need to either secure a bunch of match ammo or warm up the press big time.

 

[sawgunner2001]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sourceofuncertai</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulyosh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CMP has a wicked deal on FGMM 175gr right now...
</div></div>
Got a link perchance?</div></div>

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...277#Post1623277

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

I must have missed something. Isn't that RO class in Sacramento going to be "real?" I sure hope so, I loaded up a bunch of 260 and function tested it yesterday. My shooting sucked "real" bad and it just confirmed for me that I "really" need to go to this class. Just sayin....

 

[jamesZ71]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class!

I feel you pain with loading with a single stage press,I have loaded about 2,500 rounds with mine.Hand Trim,Hand Prime and debured

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class

Or Jayne you could just load up a couple hundred 1000 yard rounds....?

Edit: Oh...someone already said that. Sorry....

 

[paulyosh]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class

What sawgunner said. Here's the direct link:

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/c...note5=&max=

Only problem is that CMP isn't the fastest at shipping stuff out, and it's getting close...

 

[Jayne]

Re: Finally finished loading for my first RO class

OK, you all suck with all your knowledge and stuff. Sigh.

I'm running 168gr for as much as I can, and have a few boxes of BHA 175gr stuff on order for when the 168s crap out on me at 1000. Should be here in a few days.

I'll bring the hand loads and try them if I can, otherwise it's FGMM from the zombie stash.





(special thanks to Lisa for getting my head on straight).