Finally got an AR TEL scope to complete an early M21 replica rifle

[Random Guy]

Well, I've been wanting to add an XM21 or "early M21" to my small collection for a year or so, but never had much luck finding an AR TEL scope at the right time and at the right price. This year I did acquire a NOS mount, but it wasn't until this month that I finally got the scope to go with it. Thanks to a tip from another collector, I was able to buy at AR TEL scope only (no mount) with original reticle (w/ correct stadia marks) at a decent price, and in what is basically good, service grade condition. (Note: Some of the AR TELs sold by the CMP 20 years ago have had the reticles repaired/replaced with a fine cross hair, but I prefer an AR TEL scope with the original reticle that hadstwo small stadia marks on the horizontal and vertical cross hairs).

(Pics 1-4): Thought I would share some pics of this project. Circa 1989 SAI NM with ART II (top) and another 1989 SAI NM with AR TEL (bottom) (Serial #s are only 800 digits apart. Since both are from the Glen Nelson era re SAI NM rifles, I thought it would be neat to use them as M21 replicas. Both have standard weight "NM" marked barrels, unitized gas cylinders, bedded stocks, etc) I may at some point add faux M14 selector switches so they look more correct visually. (BTW, If anyone has a 1907 leather sling with a MRT date of 1970 that they could live without, I'd like to buy one on my "early M21" to complete the package...its a long shot, but just an fyi.).

Historically speaking, for those who might not know the timelines, the bottom rifle w/ AR TEL scope represents a Vietnam era "early M21" circa 1969 to the approximately early 1980s, and the top rifle with ART II scope represents a "late M21" circa early 1980s to the early 1990s (as some were still used by NG units in Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm, although at that point most of them had been replaced within active US Army units with the M24 SWS bolt-action sniper rifle). So those two vintage M21s tribute rifles finally fill the hole in my small collection of military sniper rifles and replicas.

Last picture (pic 5 - name redacted): One other kind-of neat thing about my AR TEL scope is that the prior owner was a US Army sniper, who used an M21 during the mid-1980s while in the service. He even won an award with his M21 back in 1986. Note: This AR TEL was not his actual service scope, but I think its still kind-of neat buying it from a guy who was issued one, and I enjoyed listening to his experiences from his prior service life 30 years ago...

Just an fyi post for anyone interested in replicas these old US Army sniper rifles.

 

[sandwarrior]

Random guy,

Thank you very much for that post! The upper rifle represents what I saw when I was in from '81-'85. These were used by us in Grenada, and in all sniper training operations I was involved in from the S-3 perspective.

Can you post pics through them to give everyone an idea of the differences in reticles?

 

[Random Guy]

Your welcome. Sure I can post those pics, here the 2 reticles (older retcle at top, newer one on bottom):

AR TEL has stradia lines that subtend 60 inches at the horizontal crosshair and 30 inches at the vertical stradia
ART II has a stradia line that I thnk subtends 1 meter on the horizontal crosshair. (but I need to verify that).

Hope that was hepful.

 

[kraigWY]

When the AK NG got the M21s in the late 80s early 90s (replacing the M1C/Ds) they were the first generation, the same as I used in the AMUs sniper school in 78.


I was running the AK sniper program and screwed up when offered either the M21s or M24s, I was told if I took the M21s I could exchange them in a year with the 300 WM version. I was lied to. The AK NG kept the M21s past the time I retired in '92.

In reality I having shot a M24 that was any better then the M21s, but thats just my opinion.

 

[sandwarrior]

Your welcome. Sure I can post those pics, here the 2 reticles (older retcle at top, newer one on bottom):

AR TEL has stradia lines that subtend 60 inches at the horizontal crosshair and 30 inches at the vertical stradia
ART II has a stradia line that I thnk subtends 1 meter on the horizontal crosshair. (but I need to verify that).

Hope that was hepful.

Interesting on the ART reticle. I can't speak with any authority, but the one I remember looking through had the two crosshairs. It's been a long long time since I looked through one. A few years ago, I sold my MPC to Kraig ('cause it needed a good home ). It has the two crosshairs that you dialed power up or down to get your 18" and the camputer adjusted elevation. If you set it right to the ballistics of your cartridge. That was a civilian model, though. Maybe what I saw was another civilian model that preceded the MPC?

I remember being told it was "junk" as I looked through it. The glass was about typical of the time, not great. But, it beat the hell out of that POS little 20mm that some of us got sometimes to put on our rifles. Not that the ART could have been put on one of our rifles without a lot work. Now, that picatinny rails are in style it would be easier.. Just file the front notch for the base, like I did to get it on my 7x57.

 

[kraigWY]

. A few years ago, I sold my MPC to Kraig ('cause it needed a good home ).

It got a good home too. Works perfect for my Model 70 257 Roberts, my primary deer/antelope rifle. As we know the average deer is about 18 inches from its back to belly. That scope works perfect after I finely got it dialed in for my loads.

Thanks again.

 

[sandwarrior]

It got a good home too. Works perfect for my Model 70 257 Roberts, my primary deer/antelope rifle. As we know the average deer is about 18 inches from its back to belly. That scope works perfect after I finely got it dialed in for my loads.

Thanks again.

IIRC, using the 117/120's wasn't so bad to figure out. It was the 85-100 gr range it didn't like. Almost like you used the low end, then skipped to the high end, bypassing the middle. The light .25's move fast, but low BC mean they drop a lot when they slow down.

 

[Random Guy]

Well, I decided that to really omplete these rifles I really needed to add a fake M14 selector lock, as seen on USGI M21s. I couldn't find anyone who could cut a proper M14 selector switch on my 2 SAI stocks...so I had two USGI "bed red" walnut stocks with straight grain professional refinished for both rifles. (One stock has the S and is a Springfield, but the other one is blank under the buttplate, but cut is identical so I think its a late Springfield too).

This weekend I added the faux M14 selector switch/selector locks. Since they are now aesthetically correct, I decided to share 2 more pics of these XM21/M21 tribute rifles.

...the last item will be having these stocks routed and glass bedded to the actions, but my local gunsmith has about 5 or 6 months of current work , so that will have to wait until the spring of 2018, but in the meantime here's 2 last pics of these XM21 and M21 replicas, but this time with the "correct" aesthetics.

 

[sandwarrior]

Random guy,

Thanks for the pics! an outstanding example of each.

 

[NukeMMC]

Nice rifles Random. Did Army M21s have the NM rear sights? Our Navy versions had non-NM sights.

 

[kraigWY]

Did Army M21s have the NM rear sights?

Yes, or at least all the ones I used or have seen.

 

[Random Guy]

"Nice rifles Random. Did Army M21s have the NM rear sights? Our Navy versions had non-NM sights."

Technically speaking, the original U.S. Army XM21's built from 1968-1970ish for the Vietnam war (about 1750 rifles) likely had NM rear sights as the rifles were built to M14 NM specifications by the AMU unit down in GA. (But of course with the XM21/M21 optics/mount and some had special epoxy impregnated stocks). Some of the docs I have seen referenced NM sights, but one must remember that M21 rifles were made over a 20 year period and thus some variability probably existed

Re rear apertures: There was a fair amount of clearance for the hooded NM rear sight with the original AR TEL scope (circa 1969-early 1980s), but the later ART II scope (post 1980 period) had a much larger diameter/fatter rear ocular, and a clearance issue can occur with the hooded version of the NM rear sight. In fact, when I first installed my ART II scope the hooded rear sight, even at its lowest setting with the hooded aperture resting on the rear sight base, actually hit the occular's lock ring on the ART II scope - so I had to screw in the locking ring/rear occular about 1/4" farther forward to provide the clearance for the hooded rear aperture. (see attached pic #1 - this pic was taken before I tightened/shortened the rear occular's position, and there wasn't simply any room for the hooded NM rear sight with the lock ring that far back).

Pic #4 shows that even with the rear occular threaded all the way forward and hooded rear aperture set low at about 100 meters, very little clearance space is left....so the Navy might have used standard rear aperture to eliminate this issue. (They could have been NM or standard sized, and the only way one could have known was to remove the scope and raise the rear aperture high enough to see if was stamped "NM.)

The US Army's subsequent XM25 sniper rifle (crcra late 1980s/early 1990s) with the Brookfield Precision mount, that also accommodated the large diameter AN/PVS-4 night vision optic eventually necessitated the use of a the non-hooded NM rear sight aperture - again it was a clearance issue as the hooded rear aperture is both taller and longer than the standard non-hooded rear aperture. FWIW, my XM25 replica rifle will use the non-hooded version (see pic #2) as that is considered "correct", and my guess is that Navy M21s could have been built with ether aperture, but the non-hooded ones provided more clearance as noted.

The original 250 Navy Port Security rifles that were authorized in 1989 were built to the Navy's "Grade A Match rifle" build-specs, with included NM sights with 1/2 MOA adjustments, but I'm not sure if they used non-hooded NM rear apertures. (FWIW I have attached in picture #3 a Navy Port Security rifle that doesn't appear to have any rear sight installed at all (!) - and this is an official NSN picture. Just an odd-ball picture)