Wanting to have a barreled action built using a Defiance receiver and bolt with a cut rifled barrel, in 308 win. With out having to wait 6 month to a year. Any suggestions?
Finding a rifle builder
- Thread starter rdracer126
- Start date
I chose Longrifles Inc for my most recent build. I believe his wait times are 2-4 weeks when all parts are in hand and he does fantastic work.
If you want fast AND quality I will also recommend LRI. Some of the builds I've seen them do in a matter of days are insane. I don't have the patience to wait a year or more for a rifle I can have in a week.
Call Robert W Snyder, Robert won’t bs you on his lead times and has beat every one he ever told me.
Everyone has their go to builder. I use Phoenix Custom Rifles. There are a lot of amazing builders here on the forum tough to go wrong w the other options listed as well. Best of luck with your build.
Like others have said, there are plenty of quality builders that you can read about on the forums here. PVA, Short Action Customs, LRI, Accurate Ordnance, etc, etc. A few of them should be able to turn around a barreled action in a month or less if the parts are in stock. Get in touch with some of them and get a feel for their lead times. All the good rifle builders are excellent about answering questions and giving you an honest lead time.
I'm not sure which Defiance action you are looking to build on, but you should be able to find one in stock somewhere (or a builder will have some) if it is a common spec (right hand, standard bolt face, etc). And a cut rifled 308 barrel should be no problem. Check out Bugholes and their stock of Barlein barrels. They have plenty available in 30 cal. There are of course other sources for barrels and actions though.
http://bugholes.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=88_89_93&page=6
I'm not sure which Defiance action you are looking to build on, but you should be able to find one in stock somewhere (or a builder will have some) if it is a common spec (right hand, standard bolt face, etc). And a cut rifled 308 barrel should be no problem. Check out Bugholes and their stock of Barlein barrels. They have plenty available in 30 cal. There are of course other sources for barrels and actions though.
http://bugholes.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=88_89_93&page=6
Putting together a custom rifle isn't magic. Look for a gunsmith/machinist who has up to date and calibrated equipment and sharp tooling. There is a set list of things to be done to a barreled action that these gunsmiths all do, not like they're all doing different super secret stuff.
- Feb 16, 2017
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I use a few different Smiths and depending on who gives me the best lead time decides on who I use. Last one was Travis Stevens of TSCustoms. Excellent work!
No, no secret stuff, but you at least want to make sure that you go with someone who has a habit of paying attention to detail and dealing with their customers fairly/honestly. All of the names I've seen mentioned in this thread certainly fit this description (at least those that I am familiar with; I don't know anything about Stewart Rifles, but that doesn't mean anything), and give the OP a place to start in regard to calling around and checking pricing, lead times, etc...
Right, someone who has attention to detail, which most times is natural if someone has been able to make it as a machinist thus far, as well as the basic things I mentioned in tooling and equipment. My point was, none of these guys do anything magical, and there are plenty of local gunsmiths/machinists who may not have a big name but will provide the same level of quality on the same list of services if given the opportunity. Of course PCR, SAC, LRI are good, but I think you pay a little just for the name and hype.
Hunter 223 here on the hide or
swift creek rifles both do good work and have quick turn around!!
swift creek rifles both do good work and have quick turn around!!
You do pay for the name. But understand how that name became a "name" in the first place. It's because of reputable work, customer service, and the effort required to run a business like a business and not a hobby. If you take your car to a dealership you can expect to pay more than a mechanic working under an oak tree with tools from Harbor Freight. They both may well be more than capable, but IF something goes wonky who is more likely to be able to absorb the mistake, correct it, and ensure your life is affected as little as possible?
None of this comes without cost and that is what you are truly paying for.
Far as I am aware, Keith, Mark, Josh, and myself are all within a few dollars of each other on rates. Industry wide, the price for stabbing a barrel on a push feed bolt gun from any reputable shop, hovers in the low to mid $300.00 range.
I can plainly state from experience that there is a great deal of Tribal Knowledge needed to succeed in this trade. Just being a machinist isn't going to get you to the finish line. "Tool and Die", yada yada. I've heard it all and my experience has been T/D is a relic. Like it or not this trade is evolving. The newer shops are gravitating toward automated equipment. -A process I pioneered almost 15 years ago. The machines are expensive and they do a much better job than "Tool and Die" does. If they didn't, we'd still be building cars and airplanes with South Bends.
I don't offer this as a rant or attack. It's more about perspective at the industry level.
A quote I recently read that I really like: "Without facts, you have an opinion."
Appreciate the input from an industry professional. Not bashing the big custom gunsmiths at all, stating my opinion that it is up to the individual to determine a competent 'smith, and not just follow the crowd. With the increase in popularity of PRS, a lot of guys out there have no clue what blueprinting/truing/lapping even means, they just want to tell their buddies at the local gun range their rifle had it done. Also with the increase in PRS, I question how much of my money is going toward the machining knowledge, or how much is going toward a logo on a "pro PRS'er"'s shirt. Just because your marketing is good doesn't mean the product is good, i.e. Old Navy.
I know of several one-man mechanic shops that I would trust 1000x more than a dealership if you're using that analogy. Dealerships are notorious for having one head mechanic who knows what he is doing, and several kids/HS dropouts who actually perform the work.
I live in an area with several small shops - guys who have small businesses who do one specific job for the orthopaedic industry, most of them only having a CNC lathe, CNC mill, etc, but not a full shop. You cannot tell me there is tribal knowledge involved in truing a bolt face; it is math, science, and a specific job with one specific end result. If someone has the mathematical ability and general intelligence to succeed as a machinist, working on 5-6 axis machines building complex parts, my money is on them being able to, true a bolt face for example. I agree with what you say about the latest equipment, which, between a machine that can hold tight tolerances, sharp, quality tooling and calibrated measuring equipment I value more than a name.
EGwhisper , you are getting in deep and starting to get some things a bit wrong. I also work in the machining industry and we do what we do very well, with high end equipment and knowledgeable people. However, when doing something for the first time, machining knowledge, machining capability, mathematical ability, and general intelligence does NOT give you specific knowledge of a different specialty in the industry. Sure, that person will likely be able to do the work and they may even do as fine a job as the big custom gunsmiths, but the time it will take that person to get up to speed with the specifics of another machining niche and a specific task will be longer. In some cases many hours or days longer. Who pays for that?
Large custom shops will already have the specific knowledge, the jigs, the programs and the custom tools necessary to do a job as a matter of course when doing everyday business. The one-off super-duper machinist has to create all of that or work through all it requires just to make sure that he's not screwing up your one and only bolt/receiver. That does not mean that he/she is any less capable as a machinist, it means that this is not his specialty and therefore he does not have that "tribal knowledge" that differentiates machining specialties. Show me a machinist that can do it all and very likely you are showing me someone who doesn't do that many of those things to the level that a specialist can do. Experience (AKA tribal knowledge) does make a difference in any craft or profession. An argument that says otherwise is an argument for the sake of arguing only, and is without merit.
Large custom shops will already have the specific knowledge, the jigs, the programs and the custom tools necessary to do a job as a matter of course when doing everyday business. The one-off super-duper machinist has to create all of that or work through all it requires just to make sure that he's not screwing up your one and only bolt/receiver. That does not mean that he/she is any less capable as a machinist, it means that this is not his specialty and therefore he does not have that "tribal knowledge" that differentiates machining specialties. Show me a machinist that can do it all and very likely you are showing me someone who doesn't do that many of those things to the level that a specialist can do. Experience (AKA tribal knowledge) does make a difference in any craft or profession. An argument that says otherwise is an argument for the sake of arguing only, and is without merit.
Appreciate the input, however, nowhere did I state someone should go to a machinist and ask him to ream a chamber without a little collaboration and expect a turn around time that rivals a veteran gunsmith. Please do not take my words out of context and let's not travel down a slippery slope of "my brother-cousin can ream a chamber with a drill press and tape measure". I am advocating for the smaller gunsmiths to receive more credit and consideration (no I am not one) if you have investigated and agree they have both the firearm knowledge and machining expertise. Most good machinists I know won't touch a project if they think they will f*&k it up; perfectionism is part of that trade. I agree with you that the jigs and programs would make the job exceptionally easier if it were a day in and day out job, which endorses my point that the bridge between a good machinist and a pro custom gun builder is not a long one and largely a matter of having the proper equipment.
As much as the custom builders would like us to believe they use witchcraft and "tribal knowledge", if one understands the process of accurizing a rifle they will find it is not so. Experience helps, that isn't the argument. How much experience is required? 15 years? 60? 2? Depends on the individual, and how many hours the actually spent gunsmithing/machining and not fulfilling orders/painting stocks.
How are you classifying a custom rifle builder as an expert in machining? Most do creakoting, bedding, sales, marketing, etc. I would say they are less of an expert at machining, which I value more than a sweet birdsong finish, than a veteran machinist.
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Any builder that participates on these forums knows what kind of shitshow results from a post here complaining about anything they've done, whether their fault or not. If they've managed to survive years on these forums, they're doing something right (and probably have more patience than most).
Can a cnc programmer identify why a rifle is pressuring up for no apparent reason? Does he understand the principle behind Primary Extraction and the reasoning for ensuring why sufficient clearance needs to be implemented in working parts? Diagnose and tune a Controlled round feed action extractor/shell pressure once for the first time with no resource for guidance.. . .
I program and service cnc machines as well. I own CAD systems and CAM systems. By your standard that would make me empirical in all things firearms. I'm here to tell you I am not.
Your cnc machinist may very well indeed be qualified to do machine work on firearm parts. Tribal knowledge however cannot be underscored here when it comes to selecting and fitting parts.
Dealerships may very well hire their share of flunky's. You took my statement out of context. It's not about trusting the individual mechanic. My comments were relevant to who is more likely to have sufficient pipe to absorb a mistake and get the ball moving forward again with minimal brain damage...I believe I stated that perspective pretty plainly.
I program and service cnc machines as well. I own CAD systems and CAM systems. By your standard that would make me empirical in all things firearms. I'm here to tell you I am not.
Your cnc machinist may very well indeed be qualified to do machine work on firearm parts. Tribal knowledge however cannot be underscored here when it comes to selecting and fitting parts.
Dealerships may very well hire their share of flunky's. You took my statement out of context. It's not about trusting the individual mechanic. My comments were relevant to who is more likely to have sufficient pipe to absorb a mistake and get the ball moving forward again with minimal brain damage...I believe I stated that perspective pretty plainly.
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96 hours from the time it hits the floor. Monday through Thursday. Fridays the boys are off and I'm working on the "Honey Do" list here alone. So, get it here during the beginning of the week and it'll be out and back to you by week's end.
We do this every day for folks. Easy stuff.
Barrels from K&P on the shelf in popular calibers, contours, and twists.
Happy to help.
https://www.longriflesinc.com/collections/gunsmithing-services
These guys are outstanding.. Ive had them chamber two barrels now and they will do anything to work with you and your needs. You'll pay pretty much standard industry rates for top notch service. You can't beat em.
Okay, I'll answer one more time, but you've already derailed this thread far enough from the simple question asked by the OP, all on some nebulous quest to prove...well it's not really clear what you are trying to say exactly, since you keep changing your point and your argument.
The OP asked where he can get a barreled action made without waiting for 6 months to a year. The best answer has already been stated and restated. You would have him start investigating local smiths and "do his homework" to try and figure out if it will be better for him to use one of them or one of the well known entities from this board, who charge very competitive industry rates and with guaranteed results and delivery. Or was it your local guys who specialize in orthopedics that you think would do just fine? I'm a bit confused on that point.
Here's an anecdotal example for you. A year ago, I needed to have a barrel spun on my action to replace one that had seen better days. I chose to support a local smith who is a good guy and was just getting started. Knowing that he could use the boost while getting going, I supplied the bartlien barrel, the action, and the thread protector. All I needed from him was a chamber, threaded barrel (both ends), and ceracote when done. It took over 5 weeks and cost me twice as much as if I had sent it to someone like LRI. I accept that and know that it was my choosing, but I literally could have bought another barrel with the extra I spent doing so. The resulting work was excellent and I didn't expect any different, but I suspect that's not what the OP is looking for.
That same smith is now well established and I believe his turnaround times are better, but he is still a one-man shop. If you are any good as a smith, that backlog takes time to get through and you cannot jump ahead in the queue or somebody will end up waiting an extremely long time to get theirs.
I never said this. Putting words in my mouth doesn't help your argument.
Your implication all along has been that the big guys must charge too much because they advertise and support the community. My point is, that from a business and real world results perspective, this is not necessarily a true statement and may even be dead wrong.
Thanks Cav, your rifle is in line to be started middle of next week! Just got Justin’s sentie fixed up today and it’s a hammer
Hot damn! I just had a box o parts get delivered to your shop today. I knew your turnaround times were shorter than most but damn.
To give Chad another nod, that would be my go to. His turn around for barreled actions is no joke and quality is second to none, it's downright impressive.
I fully agree. This ain’t my first rodeo with Chad, it’s just been a little while since he did the last one for me.
As an update about LRI, they just completed an order for me. They put a Proof barrel on a new action, re-inletted my stock for it, messed with the trigger so it would work in the new action, and put everything together into the finished product. They received the action from the manufacturer on October 30th and finished the "build" today. 8 days for that work is not much at all.
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That would be my vote also. VERY talented builder and as of a few weeks ago he had a short backlog
