Finding lands giving me fits.

[NJRaised]

I apologize for the couple threads I’ve posted lately, getting back into the reloading game after some time off.

I’m trying to find the lands on a 223 and I just can’t figure this out. I have a smith chambered 223, with an origin action .

I have measured factory ammo (fired) with a headspace of 1.459” (using Hornady comparator), the fireformed brass is nearly identical at 1.460”. I also have virgin starline brass measuring at 1.460” (+\- .001, surprisingly consistent).

It appears my 223 chamber is on the shorter side. No issue there, got it. I have even put a piece of scotch tape on the back of a case (unfired, same match ammo) and it will no longer chamber without resistance. So I’m confident my measurements are correct.

Now comes the part that’s getting me…. Finding the lands. I take a piece of virgin brass (which is very close to my chamber size, but confirmed it fits with no resistance on bolt close) and using the wheeler method, keep seating the bullet back until the bolt closes easily (firing pin assembly removed). The zermatt always has a smidge of resistance due to the gas block, but it’s extremely light.

So I starting seating bullets , get a hard stop, seat it farther, get a hard stop, rinse and repeat. I finally get to a point where the bolt is “mushy” on bolt close. The problem is, it stays mushy no matter how much farther I seat that bullet back. I figured once the bullet didn’t touch the lands, it would close extremely easily.

I took a reading on my Hornady comparator of the CBTO for when the mushiness started, 1.960”. Then made a dummy round for 1.960” just to confirm, and the bolt was at a hard stop again.

I cannot figure this out for the life of me.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Stop trying, it probably doesn't matter anyways. Take max mag length, back off 10 thou and load 5 at the powder charge in the middle of the book.

I'll bet it shoots sub moa.

Then play from there. The way everyone has been taught to load is mostly bullshit.

 

[Aftermath]

Did you strip the bolt? No ejector?

Do you have the modified case to use with the Hornady OAL tool? You can use it and a cleaning rod. Sort of trap the bullet between the tool and the cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle and do the push me pull ya to feel where the bullet is seating. Tighten the screw on the gauge and then use the comparator.

 

[FCS]

Sinclair OAL tool works well, doesn’t require a modified case.

What bullet are you using?

What reamer did ‘smith use, can you get freebore dimension from ‘smith?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Easiest way to find the lands is to get the Hornady OAL gauge and a modified case. That will allow you to get a reference measurement that's close to where the lands are. Close is good enough since it's a reference ony. This is the measurement you'll use to base your seating depth tests off of.

 

[Bobby Ball]

One method I have used a few times (and by no means am I implying it's right or wrong) is to take a prepped case and wipe a touch of loctite inside the case neck, color a bullet with permanent marker, seat it long, and then chamber it and give it a few minutes (probably more like 30 to an hour), then carefully remove it and confirm I see rifling contact on the bullet. Seems to work decent if you don't have an oal gauge. I've also poured chamber cast in a few chambers to get an exact mold. It's cheap and reusable.

 

[toopoorformore]

One method I have used a few times (and by no means am I implying it's right or wrong) is to take a prepped case and wipe a touch of loctite inside the case neck, color a bullet with permanent marker, seat it long, and then chamber it and give it a few minutes (probably more like 30 to an hour), then carefully remove it and confirm I see rifling contact on the bullet. Seems to work decent if you don't have an oal gauge. I've also poured chamber cast in a few chambers to get an exact mold. It's cheap and reusable.

I do this exact same thing. Only notable difference is I remove the ejector from the bolt before I slowly chamber the loctited round.

 

[LR1845]

The way everyone has been taught to load is mostly bullshit.

I am just curious why you think this and/or what your thoughts are on whats BS and whats not.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I am just curious why you think this and/or what your thoughts are on whats BS and whats not.

I load for a dozen cartridges or more. I started off doing the same thing you're doing, and ladder tests and bla bla bla.

Then one day I decided to do what I described above, and I had a .5 moa load. Then I did it again with a different cartridge, and it worked. Then again and again, and again. I dif it for years without an issue. I'd start from the point I described, then start working up speed until I started losing accuracy, and bam, done. I never hit a snag until I started shooting berger VLD bullets, (and you can keep them), and then I had to play ridiculous seating depth games. I've found that most other bullets aren't that sensitive to seating depth in most rifles. I have an oal gage and a modified case for probably 10 different cartridges, and I'll bet at least half of them are still sealed in their packaging. I use the hornady reloading manuals, find a powder charge 60% of the way through their recommended range, identify max mag length, back of ten thousandths or so, and make a test load. It shoots almost every time. Then, if I desire more speed, I'll start increasing the charge a grain at a time until I lose accuracy, then I'll play around at that point with the charges, and maybe coal if I think I can tighten it up a little. 90% of the time I don't ever touch coal again. Everything is pressure. Jump isn't about anything but pressure. There are numerous ways to alter pressure, and jump is only one of them, and with most bullets and clamberings, it's probably the least effective way to tune. Now, I'll admit that there are some chamberings that are extremely sensitive to jump (6.5x284) and the like, and there are some bullets (berger vld) that are as well, but for most loadings, it's an almost unnecessary step in my opinion. But, try it and see, tell me if I'm wrong..

 

[xsn10s]

I have to somewhat agree. Seating to the lands is just a reference point. But like Hecouldgoalltheway says you could back off 0.010 from max mag length and try from there. If you're going to run from the mag then that makes the most sense anyways. I've gotten even VLD bullets to shoot sub .5 moa in my PSS. But if you want to single load then you could try different seating depths if you want. I also use the black sharpie method. I'd just place the sharpied round in the bolt prior to chambering rather than putting it in the chamber and then closing the bolt. That way you'll take out some of that ejector plunger resistance. Not all but most.

 

[Haney]

 

[LR1845]

I load for a dozen cartridges or more. I started off doing the same thing you're doing, and ladder tests and bla bla bla.

Then one day I decided to do what I described above, and I had a .5 moa load. Then I did it again with a different cartridge, and it worked. Then again and again, and again. I dif it for years without an issue. I'd start from the point I described, then start working up speed until I started losing accuracy, and bam, done. I never hit a snag until I started shooting berger VLD bullets, (and you can keep them), and then I had to play ridiculous seating depth games. I've found that most other bullets aren't that sensitive to seating depth in most rifles. I have an oal gage and a modified case for probably 10 different cartridges, and I'll bet at least half of them are still sealed in their packaging. I use the hornady reloading manuals, find a powder charge 60% of the way through their recommended range, identify max mag length, back of ten thousandths or so, and make a test load. It shoots almost every time. Then, if I desire more speed, I'll start increasing the charge a grain at a time until I lose accuracy, then I'll play around at that point with the charges, and maybe coal if I think I can tighten it up a little. 90% of the time I don't ever touch coal again. Everything is pressure. Jump isn't about anything but pressure. There are numerous ways to alter pressure, and jump is only one of them, and with most bullets and clamberings, it's probably the least effective way to tune. Now, I'll admit that there are some chamberings that are extremely sensitive to jump (6.5x284) and the like, and there are some bullets (berger vld) that are as well, but for most loadings, it's an almost unnecessary step in my opinion. But, try it and see, tell me if I'm wrong..

You say you started off doing what I am doing...I am not doing what the rest of most reloaders do...I am probably closer to the mind set that you are but when I start shooting long range in 2004 I was probably as bad if not worse than most.
I started with a 300 WinMag and can not tell you how many times I wanted to throw that Fn gun in a ditch and leave it there, funny part with that is it took me about 2yrs to realize, or admit, the problem was never the gun...It was the GUY loading for and driving the gun! HARD for ppl to admit I mean it only took me 2yrs LOL!

I have at one time or another done just about every thing there is to try to improve reloading....I have trimmed and tipped bullets, turned necks, uniformed primer pockets, uniformed flash holes both inside and out, weighed powder to the kernel, weigh sorted bullets and primers, weigh sorted brass both by empty weight and by internal volume, body size and neck size with a lee collet die, neck size bushing dies, full length size with the expander ball, full length size then mandrel, seating primers at different depths or crush, seated jammed into the lands to .100 or more off, and probably several other things I've forgotten about...all of the things above made me hate reloading and shooting because of the time spent to make ammo, I actually quite shooting for about 3 months before rethinking my process.

I live 5 minutes for where I shoot for practice and can pretty much shoot as far as I want, literally miles, so I did the above and a lot of testing at 1000yds and at the end of the day it was not all the trying to make a PERFECT load that matter it was all the trigger time, learning wind and weather conditions that really mattered.

My load development is very simple...New barrel I will shoot 100 rounds to get the barrel up to speed, 50 lite charges then 50 heavier but not near max, I clean the barrel then load 10 rounds from about mid charge to just over max and shoot them looking for the velocity I want I could care less where they land, basically the Satterlee thing, I always start at .040 off,and never go closer any more, and seating always seems to land at .050-.080 off, and when I do my seating test I jump .010 at a time never less, I never chase the lands and if/when the barrel slows down I just add powder.

I do not chase different powders, primers or bullets, I have shot most of the popular calibers and several not so popular so I know what components work and where to start. I do not worry about the lowest ES-SDs I worry about whats happening at 5-600yds.

Reloading is very simple ppl make it difficult by chasing things that do not really matter or make that big of a difference to worry about. I have thrown powder into 260 remington cases directly out of a lee powder throw and take 3rd in a local 600yd F-class match. I have loaded 6BRA on a dillon 750 using the dillon powder throw with varget and took 6th(I think, its been awhile)in our local PRS match with 40 shooters.

 

[FredHammer]

Easiest way to find the lands is to let gravity show you. Muzzle to the sky, buttpad on a bench. Ensure an empty case can be inserted into the chamber and fall freely when you release your finger from the back of the case head. Then load a bullet a little long. Continue to insert the round into the chamber and seat the bullet .002-.003 deeper until the bullet falls free by gravity after you release your finger off the case head. They will stick prior to the free fall, and if you go slow and detect the soft feel of the bullet in the lands, you can unstick the bullet with a rap of the buttstock on the bench. If not, you can punch out with rod from muzzle end. I've been doing this for 6yrs now and every gun I own. Like with anything, first time takes longest, but once you get a feel for it, it can be done in a couple minutes.

 

[Rocketmandb]

have loaded 6BRA on a dillon 750 using the dillon powder throw with varget and took 6th(I think, its been awhile)in our local PRS match with 40 shooters.

Yeah, but to be fair, the 6BRA is about the dumbest round out there to load for. You can throw just about anything into the case, guess at a seating depth, be fire forming, and still beat most other cartridges out there

I just did that last weekend in putting the first rounds through my new BRA barrel with new 6BR Lapua brass. Had to laugh when checking the target after putting round #s 6-30 through the new barrel with a random, light, fire-forming load. I put all 25 into roughly a .6 - .7 MOA group (and the SD was in the 8s)

The guy next to me said, "good shooting."

I replied, "not for this rifle."

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Easiest way to find the lands is to let gravity show you. Muzzle to the sky, buttpad on a bench. Ensure an empty case can be inserted into the chamber and fall freely when you release your finger from the back of the case head. Then load a bullet a little long. Continue to insert the round into the chamber and seat the bullet .002-.003 deeper until the bullet falls free by gravity after you release your finger off the case head. They will stick prior to the free fall, and if you go slow and detect the soft feel of the bullet in the lands, you can unstick the bullet with a rap of the buttstock on the bench. If not, you can punch out with rod from muzzle end. I've been doing this for 6yrs now and every gun I own. Like with anything, first time takes longest, but once you get a feel for it, it can be done in a couple minutes.

I use a modified version of this. I have the barrel off the rifle and vertical in vise, muzzle down. Seat until your fingernail in the extractor groove will life the round freely from chamber without any sticking.

You'll feel the bullet sticking in lands up until it doesn't.

 

[LR1845]

Yeah, but to be fair, the 6BRA is about the dumbest round out there to load for. You can throw just about anything into the case, guess at a seating depth, be fire forming, and still beat most other cartridges out there

I just did that last weekend in putting the first rounds through my new BRA barrel with new 6BR Lapua brass. Had to laugh when checking the target after putting round #s 6-30 through the new barrel with a random, light, fire-forming load. I put all 25 into roughly a .6 - .7 MOA group (and the SD was in the 8s)

The guy next to me said, "good shooting."

I replied, "not for this rifle."

Agree 100% and why I shot one for a long time....6GT, 6BR, 6dasher, 6BRX, same thing as is most 6mmers.

 

[FredHammer]

I use a modified version of this. I have the barrel off the rifle and vertical in vise, muzzle down. Seat until your fingernail in the extractor groove will life the round freely from chamber without any sticking.

You'll feel the bullet sticking in lands up until it doesn't.

Same here. Super easy this way.