Finding lands with Loctite
- Thread starter gary55
- Start date
Loctite? In the chamber or barrel? No thanks. I'll pass.
Yes I prefer this method:
1. clean barrel and chamber.
2. take fired brass and resize and knockout primer. Cut one thin longitudinal cut on one side of brass neck with Dremel.
3. Remove ejector from bolt.
4. lightly coat bullet base with gorilla glue and insert into case. Wipe off excess glue. Cleanup with acetone.
5. Insert dummy case by hand in to chamber.
6.Reinstall bolt and close on dummy case.
7. Remove dummy case after 15 minutes. Use cleanining rod with masking tape on tip through muzzle if needed To remove dummy case.
8. Make measurements . Repeat as needed with different bullets. Repeat to convince yourself your measurements are good.
9. Replace ejector in bolt.
10. Label dummy rounds with permanent marker and keep for reference.
11. Thank me profusely and sell me some 6 mm BR Lapua brass.
Above borrowed from others.
1. clean barrel and chamber.
2. take fired brass and resize and knockout primer. Cut one thin longitudinal cut on one side of brass neck with Dremel.
3. Remove ejector from bolt.
4. lightly coat bullet base with gorilla glue and insert into case. Wipe off excess glue. Cleanup with acetone.
5. Insert dummy case by hand in to chamber.
6.Reinstall bolt and close on dummy case.
7. Remove dummy case after 15 minutes. Use cleanining rod with masking tape on tip through muzzle if needed To remove dummy case.
8. Make measurements . Repeat as needed with different bullets. Repeat to convince yourself your measurements are good.
9. Replace ejector in bolt.
10. Label dummy rounds with permanent marker and keep for reference.
11. Thank me profusely and sell me some 6 mm BR Lapua brass.
Above borrowed from others.
Thank you profusely. I don't have a single piece of 6BR to give you but I'll keep you mind. This method seems easier/faster than the Wheeler. I might give it a try next time. Thanks again, profusely.
I’ve tried a few methods, this one is my favorite.
Seriously? I could use my Hornady gauge and modified case, and calculate distance to the Lands on about 25 rifles before I'd finish one of those cycles on a single rifle. I'm really struggling to understand why all this work and mess is better than the conventional method that most of us use. I always try to remember that old saying ... "The road less-traveled, is less-traveled for a reason." That said ... to each his own ... eh?
This is the Wheeler method that has been around for years. Works very well, no cutting necks, no gluing , no clean up before or after. No sacrificing a piece of brass or bullet, both are reusable. Doesn't get any easier!
I do 10 measurements ... throw out the low two and high two ... and average the remaining six measurements for my "best number". The standard deviation from those six I use is almost always less than 1-100th, which is less than my set-back so I know it will work. Never had a problem. BTW ... I usually do this every 500 rounds or so, just to see if my measurement "drifts" at all. Works for me ... takes me 10 minutes (or less) ... no dremeling or goop clean-up. Now don't get me wrong ... I obsess and over-analyze lots of other things, just not this one.
Ive used blue Loctite with a spent case before. Apply with a q-tip on the inside of the neck, well back from the mouth. Hand seat it long and close the bolt. Wait ~15-20 minutes and eject the round. Measure.
Never had a bullet get loose with blue Loctite. Bonus is that you can tumble with stainless media and reuse the case (* I reuse the same case for finding lands...not shooting). Never got any Loctite outside of the case mouth and into the chamber either. You don't need a lot...it isn't like bedding an action.
I also have the Hornady gauge. It is pretty repeatable on most cartridges, but damn if I haven't had a chamber or two where I was getting .015 or so of variation...who knows.
I've tried the cleaning rod and tape method too, but *I* induced too much error into it to call those results reliable...more like 'a good ballpark' estimate.
More than one way to skin this cat.
Never had a bullet get loose with blue Loctite. Bonus is that you can tumble with stainless media and reuse the case (* I reuse the same case for finding lands...not shooting). Never got any Loctite outside of the case mouth and into the chamber either. You don't need a lot...it isn't like bedding an action.
I also have the Hornady gauge. It is pretty repeatable on most cartridges, but damn if I haven't had a chamber or two where I was getting .015 or so of variation...who knows.
I've tried the cleaning rod and tape method too, but *I* induced too much error into it to call those results reliable...more like 'a good ballpark' estimate.
More than one way to skin this cat.
Why does anyone care where the lands are? Find jam with a hornady guage and use that as a reference. Who cares if its a accurate measurement it doesnt mean anything. Are peolpe still "chasing lands"?
I feel like this needs a whole separate thread to unpack whether you are serious or going to become legendary…
Right off the lands is a standard starting point to begin testing to find the accuracy node.
I think some might be confusing "accuracy" with "repeatability"? Some methods will not give consistent results, which is pretty important for several reasons.
It’s a pretty commonly held belief.
And it’s not necessarily wrong.
The absolute distance to the lands is meaningless. Accurate comparative measurements are important. I'm going to skip the glue in method.
There are theorized to be pressure spikes related to relative position of the lands. IMHO having some awareness of this is reasonable, even if you don't plan on jamming or chasing the lands with your seating depths.
The loctite or glue method has been around for years and years. It's pretty conventional. You just haven't heard of it apparently.
Some people just want a permanent round to measure. Personal preference.
What's really entertaining is that anyone things knowing exactly where the lands are down to under .005 actually matters and all you guys argue over their personal preference of finding it.
I think his point is that if you're within a relatively close distance to where the lands are, you're fine.
Knowing exactly where they are doesn't really matter as long as you're in the ballpark.
I tried just about everything before/until I found the Deep Creek method, it works perfectly every time and is the only method I've found that requires no special tools or tricks and is repeatable to the thou:
when I was little I jammed 2lbs of playdough in my pops gun to get an exact mold of what his barrel looked like from the inside I spent 2 days getting it all out I never did that again the mold on the other hand turned out not as bad as I though it might .
Why don't you just add all ten together and move the decimal point to give you the average? Or as easily just chose the mean. The problem I see with "best" measurement is bias. I agree the Hornady method is fine but some what finicky depending on the seating of the device on the back of the action. I think the glue method is cheaper but probably not better except for it sits in my seating die box with the measurements written on it. Like you I like seeing how things are going after 500 to 1000 rounds.
I just don't like waiting on a new cartridge to fit the hornady method if I change calibers.
I think we can agree it is a starting point to safely find the lands for reloading off the lands before delving into jamming into the lands.
A funny feeling occurs with the Hornady pushing the higher BC bullets( that we now shoot) into the lands can give some resistance before reaching the lands.
In conclusion either done well is a good repeatable start.
only thing I care about is my jam point. Hornady oal tool, jam the bullet in as far as it will go with pretty firm force, if done correctly the bullet will stick (will need to remove with a cleaning rod).
Now I know my absolute maximum, you have to be around 20-30 thou into the rifling before the bullet will jam.
If I am doing load dev on a benchrest comp gun I will test with jam (would not recommend this because of the risk of making a mess if a live round needs extracted.
for all other uses where I may need to extract a live round I start at jam minus 20 thou
Now I know my absolute maximum, you have to be around 20-30 thou into the rifling before the bullet will jam.
If I am doing load dev on a benchrest comp gun I will test with jam (would not recommend this because of the risk of making a mess if a live round needs extracted.
for all other uses where I may need to extract a live round I start at jam minus 20 thou
Rio Precision Gunwerks...fancy title for someone that does not know what he is talking about. What a joke .
We can argue how much it matters to get an accurate measurement or not all month and not get anywhere... but IDK why anyone would want to put any time and energy into measuring something while not caring if it's correct or not. One might as well just take a guess and use that. 
All the methods that are based on jamming a projectile into the rifling and then pulling it out and measuring it to get a number are sloppy. They only yield an "approximation" or "in the ballpark" number at best. The Hornady gadget isn't any better, two guys can do it back-to-back and get different numbers that are as much as ~5+ thou different from one and another. This is because you're introducing multiple factors that can affect the result: different neck tensions, some guys putting lube on the projectiles so they won't get stuck, some guys pushing on the back of the Hornady gadget stronger than others, etc.
I like the Deep Creek method because you can literally feel the difference when it changes from "touching the rifling" to "not touching" over half a thou. Then you just measure the dummy round, easy. You can do it 10 times in a row and get the same number 10 times in a row. If you have an action that's CRF like an Origin, TL3, or Nucleus, etc where there isn't even an ejector on the bolt face to remove, then all you have to do is pull the firing-pin-assembly and get started.
Every other method I've ever heard of that's as accurate/precise and repeatable, requires you to pull the BA from your stock/chassis and then pull the barrel to do it... and then have to re-zero once it's all back together (which is a PITA).
All the methods that are based on jamming a projectile into the rifling and then pulling it out and measuring it to get a number are sloppy. They only yield an "approximation" or "in the ballpark" number at best. The Hornady gadget isn't any better, two guys can do it back-to-back and get different numbers that are as much as ~5+ thou different from one and another. This is because you're introducing multiple factors that can affect the result: different neck tensions, some guys putting lube on the projectiles so they won't get stuck, some guys pushing on the back of the Hornady gadget stronger than others, etc.
I like the Deep Creek method because you can literally feel the difference when it changes from "touching the rifling" to "not touching" over half a thou. Then you just measure the dummy round, easy. You can do it 10 times in a row and get the same number 10 times in a row. If you have an action that's CRF like an Origin, TL3, or Nucleus, etc where there isn't even an ejector on the bolt face to remove, then all you have to do is pull the firing-pin-assembly and get started.
Every other method I've ever heard of that's as accurate/precise and repeatable, requires you to pull the BA from your stock/chassis and then pull the barrel to do it... and then have to re-zero once it's all back together (which is a PITA).
Came out of the gate runnin'...
The easiest method is the Erik Cortina method.
So easy, repeatable and it just works and takes no time at all.
So easy, repeatable and it just works and takes no time at all.
I wouldn't put locktite in my barrel, and I really never concern myself being that close. Find jamb and move back from there. Most of my barrels have enjoyed the same seating depth plus or minus 5 thou
I used to tune ammo to old guns as a hobby in and of itself. The Hornady gage only works if you use consistent pressure. It should be light, because light is more repeatable. I tap it with the pad of my index finger, and my results are consistently within 2 thou. I've tuned dozens of cartridges with the Hornady gage, and it works perfectly when used correctly.
BTW, if you actually shoot, compete, and burn through barrels your jump changes as your barrel life depletes and the lands just beyond the camber get roached. If you're Cortina and only care about avoiding the jam for safety it's not a problem, but if you believe that your jump is significant in your precision you need to recheck them every few hundred rounds, because it does get longer. Whether jump is a critical component of precision may be debated, but whether your jump gets longer as you use up your barrel is a fact.
BTW, if you actually shoot, compete, and burn through barrels your jump changes as your barrel life depletes and the lands just beyond the camber get roached. If you're Cortina and only care about avoiding the jam for safety it's not a problem, but if you believe that your jump is significant in your precision you need to recheck them every few hundred rounds, because it does get longer. Whether jump is a critical component of precision may be debated, but whether your jump gets longer as you use up your barrel is a fact.
omg, where do you live?
I'll Post This Here - Hornady's Podcast #50. I thought it was one of their best, but some reloaders might not like what they see....
Hornady podcast #50. Another in their ongoing long series on ballistics. This one focuses on things like SD and Velocity stats that reloaders tend to focus on, and why the statistics tend to prove that those things might not be as relevant as we all think.... A hard pill to swallow for some of...
www.snipershide.com
I think one of the best pieces of advice is to mark and save the bullet you use should you want do the test again.
From what I have seen (anecdotally), if you use different bullets from lot to lot you will get slightly different measurements. This tells me that chasing land’s measurements down to the .0005” (using calipers that are +or- .0005”) with bullets that have variances, is somewhat arbitrary.
On the Hornady tool, I smear a TINY bit of lube on the bullet and use 3-4 lbs pressure. This is consistent and close enough for my needs. Hell even super fussy Berger VLDs claim a .030 - .040” node for seating depth. This is found by live fire testing, not measuring your lands to 1/2 a thou……
From what I have seen (anecdotally), if you use different bullets from lot to lot you will get slightly different measurements. This tells me that chasing land’s measurements down to the .0005” (using calipers that are +or- .0005”) with bullets that have variances, is somewhat arbitrary.
On the Hornady tool, I smear a TINY bit of lube on the bullet and use 3-4 lbs pressure. This is consistent and close enough for my needs. Hell even super fussy Berger VLDs claim a .030 - .040” node for seating depth. This is found by live fire testing, not measuring your lands to 1/2 a thou……
thats not true, depending on bullet profile, throat, etc I have seen more than what you stated. but i agree, some combinations may only have 5-10 thou between touch and jam
Agree, except you probably aren't gong to find calipers that are .0005 accurate. Calipers I don't trust just thousandths.
I think if a more people looked at reloading as a trial and error process, other than some scientific adventure, they would have an easier time with it. People spend all this time looking for the "perfect" OAL, the "perfect" powder charge, and perfect annealing. Then get shellacked by some shit pig who actually shoots, rather than spending all day raging about "best" reloading practices.
You change one variable, then test for probable improvement. Then you "test" some more [actually go shooting} to make sure that you can shoot the difference.
Exactly, furthermore what does expansion and contraction due to heat do to these lands measurements. From COLD to WARM to HOT it has to change.
All these methods they are performed with a cold barrel. I would love to see someone test through the normal shooting temperature range. I bet it would be an eye-opener.
Fuck sakes guys...Easiest method yet:
"Gravity & Pinky". Load a bullet long in the case. Push into chamber with pinky. Muzzle to sky. If the cartridge doesn't fall out when you take your finger off, it is stuck in the rifling. Seat shorter until the cartridge free falls out.
"Gravity & Pinky". Load a bullet long in the case. Push into chamber with pinky. Muzzle to sky. If the cartridge doesn't fall out when you take your finger off, it is stuck in the rifling. Seat shorter until the cartridge free falls out.
Ok Ginger, coming up with simple, effective ways to do simple tasks in reloading will result in your banishment to a transvestite singles camp for a week.
Cortina could complicate pencil sharpening...
I agree , I still find it hard to believe the fanboys that douche has . I guess some folks can actually stomach that howard stern wannabe ? He sure as fuck screams for attention , and the mindless sheep fall for it .
It doesn't take all those steps, I just use a piece of once fired brass and a tab of red locktite. Keep it in the reloading box and I always have a round I can measure if need be.. I've got the hornady kit, even bought a tap so I could make my own modified cases to use it with each caliber I have in the safe. I find this method simple and easy. Don't push enough on the bullet or push too much and you get different readings with the hornady kit.
Are people doing the glue method multiple times to check consistency of results? Doubtful. The method is "consistent" because it's only done once.
I use a Borg Warner Flux Capacitating Turbo charged micrometer to get a baseline, then I cut the barrel in half so I can actually see where the lands are. This is the only accurate way. Once I've JB welded a dummy round into the chamber to get my measurements I use a traditional Japanese Katana Sword forging technique to forge weld the barrel back together. I also go ahead and sharpen it like a Katana also just in case I run out of ammo the barrel can be used as a weapon. This process usually takes me around 8-9 months to complete which I know I could be at the range actually shooting but I just have to know where the lands are within 0.00001 or it's not really a Precision Rifle.
