Sidearms & Scatterguns Fireclean or Froglube?

#51
The thing a few people seem to be forgetting here is that FireClean is not only a lubricant, it is also a cleaner and a protectant. Mobil 1 and all the other lubes and or secret recipe concoctions that have been mentioned here do zero for cleaning or protecting the firearm any where even close to what FireClean does. As I stated up thread, I've seen dudes in 3rd world countries using olive oil on their weapons as a lubricant without issue, that doesn't mean its as good or a better solution than other products just because it works. If you are going to compare products make sure its apples to apples across the board.
 
#52
I don't forget much. Have you by chance looked at an additive package for Royal Purple or Mobile 1? How about Royal Purple ATF? By your assertion that they do "zero for cleaning or protecting the firearm any where even close to what FireClean does" indicates that you have no clue what the packages are, much less do. If you think they don't contain "cleaners and protectants" then you just have not researched it sufficiently. Heck, even the auto oils commercials talk about volatility burn-off and sludge protection and film strength.

What I was able to do with various "samples" is use them, and then take swabs and run the samples, before and after, through an ICAP to see how the packages held up.
 
#54
If you buy the stuff, the people selling it, and maybe you, will be happy. Make your own, and just you will be happy.
Click to expand...

Think I mentioned early in this thread paste Froglube tended to slow the action in tight fitted 1911s. Well, during the blizzard of '14 I tested the stuff on a Les Baer. Gun was in the truck overnight and temps were in the upper 20s (about 40 at the range). First shot didn't cycle the action far enough to eject the case. The second shot ejected, but slide didn't return to battery. I could fire and watch for the slide cycle in slow motion. Sometimes would RTB, sometimes not. Field stripped and did a quick clean and lubed with Mobile 1. Worked like a champ. I'm back to my original philosophy: "Jack of all trades, master of none."
 
#55
MarkCO said:
I don't forget much. Have you by chance looked at an additive package for Royal Purple or Mobile 1? How about Royal Purple ATF? By your assertion that they do "zero for cleaning or protecting the firearm any where even close to what FireClean does" indicates that you have no clue what the packages are, much less do. If you think they don't contain "cleaners and protectants" then you just have not researched it sufficiently. Heck, even the auto oils commercials talk about volatility burn-off and sludge protection and film strength.

What I was able to do with various "samples" is use them, and then take swabs and run the samples, before and after, through an ICAP to see how the packages held up.
Click to expand...

OK, show me a weapon with just your lube of choice on it after several hundred rounds of MG, surpressed, cheap ammo, etc and how easy the parts wipe off to a clean condition with just a paper towel. You can't and won' be able to reproduce the results that you get with FireClean ( and to a limited extent froglube). Motor oil (or any other gun lube) with all of its additives and detergents don't do what FireClean does. I speak from personal experience using them side by side and comparing the results, no dog in the fight,nothing (psuedo)scientific, just pure and simple results derived info. If you claim your motor oil can do what is in the video below then I will say you are full of it. And if for some reason you still claim it does, then you need to bottle it and sell it.



 
#56
I know both are great products. But after becoming friends with L. Laskey I am loyal to Frog Lube. The man is awesome and I will continue to support him. His products work as advertised. Fire clean is great also. To each his own.
 
#57
Papa Zero Three said:
I speak from personal experience using them side by side and comparing the results, no dog in the fight,nothing (psuedo)scientific, just pure and simple results derived info. If you claim your motor oil can do what is in the video below then I will say you are full of it. And if for some reason you still claim it does, then you need to bottle it and sell it.
Click to expand...

You ran Royal Purple 30wt and ATF mixed 50/50?...right. So you are comparing something you have NO knowledge of. Have a nice evening.

PS, Royal Purple already sells it. Not a fan of taking an oil on the market and marking it up to make a quick buck. Sure, others do, and you are more than welcome to buy it.
 
#58
MarkCO said:
You ran Royal Purple 30wt and ATF mixed 50/50?...right. So you are comparing something you have NO knowledge of. Have a nice evening.

PS, Royal Purple already sells it. Not a fan of taking an oil on the market and marking it up to make a quick buck. Sure, others do, and you are more than welcome to buy it.
Click to expand...

Yes, sorry to bust your bubble, I use royal purple in my off road vehicles, great stuff if not a bit pricey and just like most gun guys, I've tried just about every oil and petroleum based product that can be found in garages,shops and motor pools on my guns over the years.

You did not answer my question though. Can your favorite lube produce the results seen in the videos above?
 
#59
Wow. RP is synthetic, and you seem to have missed the part about the ATF.

Yes, in fact I ran the RP 50/50 mix on the piston of an SLPs, for 500 rounds and directly compared it to Fireclean on the other SLP for the same round count. Fireclean was no better, but no worse either. But both of the pistons had a lot more carbon than in that video, even though it wiped off. In the cold, Fireclean sludged up and made the SLP not be able to function anything but high brass.
 
#60
I use Frog lube on all my guns and really like it. One AR10 an AR15, my TRP .45 and my XDS .45. Works great for me but I live in Phoenix. Never tried it in the cold, I'm too smart to live there. LOL.
 
#61
MarkCO said:
Wow. RP is synthetic, and you seem to have missed the part about the ATF.

Yes, in fact I ran the RP 50/50 mix on the piston of an SLPs, for 500 rounds and directly compared it to Fireclean on the other SLP for the same round count. Fireclean was no better, but no worse either. But both of the pistons had a lot more carbon than in that video, even though it wiped off. In the cold, Fireclean sludged up and made the SLP not be able to function anything but high brass.
Click to expand...


I clearly mentioned "other petroleum products" , you seem to have missed that part. ;) I suggest you watch the other FireClean videos out there, you claim yours had more carbon so look at the other examples they clearly provide. In fact, look for the suppressed MP5 one. If you've ever had to clean a Mp5SD, you know it is by far one of the worse carbon monster collecting guns out there. Fireclean was used on all the Mp5SD's out on range 37 school house which see an astronomical amount of rounds during a class. Carbon wiped off and the suppressor could be taken off by hand and not a pipe wrench. H&K also used it exclusively on all the range guns for SHOT show and endorse its use on their guns. Its clear you're set in your opinion and your results differ from my personal experiences as well as other well known military organizations/people/companies in the industry. All I can say is that your experience is not typical and as the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water" .
 
#64
427Cobra said:
I would like to see the MSDS of FC, and FL, but knowing what they actuatly are will mean the end of 2 American companies.
Click to expand...

By law, they have to supply them. No matter, run the stuff through an ICAP and it is not hard to figure out what it is. I run fluids, polymers and metals through various analytical processes on a regular basis to figure out what it is and if it meets the manufacturers specs. When Oregon Trail came out with their bullets, I did the same thing and figured out what they were doing. Of course, I don't publish that kind of information unless it is under some sort of protective order.
 
#65
Well the US Gov't requires that info as well when purchasing it and guess what, FireClean was purchased and used. You can call and verify that and any of the performance specs i've mentioned in this thread with FireClean for yourself if you are in doubt.
 
#66
I am not trying to refute the FC claims, nor say it does not work. I have several friends who use it and love it. It could use a viscosity modifier to depress the cloud point for use in cold weather, but other than that, it does work. At about $8/ounce it better be good. But for about $.60/ounce, one can use the RP mixture that has better cold weather properties and performs well in the other areas as well.

Using the US Government purchase as a point of credibility means nothing, I have worked on government contracts as well and I know how purchasing can go. Besides, I am not preventing you from using it, feel free.
 
#67
I mentioned the US Gov't not as a point of credibility but in response to wanting to see the MSDS. The other notable feature that hasn't been discussed is that FireClean is a green product, something that RP/ATF and most other products are not( exception being FrogLube). Nor has the protectant capabilities been addressed. FireClean is a CLP in the truest sense of the word.
 
#69
I tested FrogLube on my Wilson Defender (1911). Action was smooth but after awhile I discovered a few issues.

1) FL does not clean copper or lead fowling. So to clean your barrel you have to use another solvent, which as stated above, does not play well with FL.

2) using an IWB holster, my body temperature would heat up the weapon and cause the FL to run. Ruined a couple of shirts. Even though I wiped all the access off and the stuff would continue to run.

3) As a rust preventative, I was not that impressed. To keep the rust from forming you had add more FL (it is a barrier protectant) which led to the above issue and would cause serious carbon build up.

I have switched back to CLP and Shooter Choice. Just my first hand experience.

P.S. Not a big fan of having to heat up the gun to get the best results, but on the plus side you can use it on your chapped lips when shooting in the winter or summer.
 
#70
MetroJethro said:
I tested FrogLube on my Wilson Defender (1911). Action was smooth but after awhile I discovered a few issues.

1) FL does not clean copper or lead fowling. So to clean your barrel you have to use another solvent, which as stated above, does not play well with FL.

2) using an IWB holster, my body temperature would heat up the weapon and cause the FL to run. Ruined a couple of shirts. Even though I wiped all the access off and the stuff would continue to run.

3) As a rust preventative, I was not that impressed. To keep the rust from forming you had add more FL (it is a barrier protectant) which led to the above issue and would cause serious carbon build up.

I have switched back to CLP and Shooter Choice. Just my first hand experience.

P.S. Not a big fan of having to heat up the gun to get the best results, but on the plus side you can use it on your chapped lips when shooting in the winter or summer.
Click to expand...


Those are all valid issues with FrogLube. Fireclean doesn't have those issues and it has no odor/smell. I know some like the smell of frog lube but when you have issue #2, that smell stays with the object its on for a good deal of time. FireClean also does extremely well with issue #1 and #3.

Spif034, how many ATF products out there are Bio friendly and don't present the staining issues MetroJethro mentioned above?
 
#73
You guys having problems with Frog lube running must be putting it on really heavy. I live in Phoenix, that means inside my Jeep can reach 160 degrees in the summer and I pull my .45 out and I don't have Frog Lube running off the gun. I also carry here in the summer and it's God awful hot a day under 110 and your happy and I've never had Frog lube run off my gun???

I'm not saying it's the best stuff in the world but my XDS .45 was having light primer strike issues from not going fully into battery and after a good Frog Lube treatment and a few hundred rounds no more problem.

I may try Fireclean next, but that tub of Froglube I've had a year and it's still half full. My barrels never seem to have any Copper or lead fouling in them either. I just run a patch with Frog Lube and then a couple dry ones and my .45 barrels shine like new inside. I don't think anything sticks in there because of the Frog Lube. I also shoot copper jacketed bullets so maybe thats why?

Rust, whats that, I live in Phoenix.

I also never get bitched at for cleaning my guns at the dining room table cause it smell minty fresh and it doesn't eat the skin off my hands either. Great product if you ask me.

Ever spill some Hoppes #9 in the house. Takes a month for that smell to go away.
 
#75
KevinB-KAC said:
FYI KAC recommends FIREClean in all of our weapons. We have tested pretty much everything under the sun.

If you don't shoot much you may not notice the advantages ;)


For those running Frog Lube. Don't get it dusty, or really hot in a gun. Or better yet don't use it...
Click to expand...

Kevin please elaborate as I am running Frog Lube in my Kac Mod-1 and my Gap10, both high end rifles.
 
#76
KevinB-KAC said:
FYI KAC recommends FIREClean in all of our weapons. We have tested pretty much everything under the sun.

If you don't shoot much you may not notice the advantages ;)


For those running Frog Lube. Don't get it dusty, or really hot in a gun. Or better yet don't use it...
Click to expand...

Kevin please elaborate as I am running Frog Lube in my Kac Mod-1 and my Gap10, both high end rifles.
 
#79
MarkCO,

Two Quick questions.

What ratio do you use to mix the Oil and ATF?
How is the shelf life? Will it stay mixed and stable for years or will it break down and seperate?

I would like to give this a go, as I have used strait M1 for years with good results.

Thanks
 
#80
Shoottothrill said:
Kevin please elaborate as I am running Frog Lube in my Kac Mod-1 and my Gap10, both high end rifles.
Click to expand...

Is he supposed to post the test results here?

Expert from the company just told you what to use and why. Pretty self explainitory. KevinB is a well respected member of shooting community and it would be wise to listen to what he says, even sans detailed explaination.
 
#81
Cobracutter said:
MarkCO,

Two Quick questions.

What ratio do you use to mix the Oil and ATF?
How is the shelf life? Will it stay mixed and stable for years or will it break down and seperate?

I would like to give this a go, as I have used strait M1 for years with good results.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I use 50/50. I had tried some other additives, but looking at parts under the SEM, I saw no added benefit. Once mixed, it stays mixed for at least 1 year. Never ran a test on anything older that was controlled. I have a 6 ounce high pressure oiler that I filled about 3 years ago, it is still mixed, but I do use it 20 or so times a year.

I will say I currently have one AR that is lubed with Fireclean, but it does not get a lot of use and it has a NiB carrier. It would not be there if I thought it was not a good product.

I see what Kevin said about Froglube...I would add that if it gets cold, it pretty much becomes chunky.
 
#82
MarkCO said:
I use 50/50. I had tried some other additives, but looking at parts under the SEM, I saw no added benefit. Once mixed, it stays mixed for at least 1 year. Never ran a test on anything older that was controlled. I have a 6 ounce high pressure oiler that I filled about 3 years ago, it is still mixed, but I do use it 20 or so times a year.

I will say I currently have one AR that is lubed with Fireclean, but it does not get a lot of use and it has a NiB carrier. It would not be there if I thought it was not a good product.

I see what Kevin said about Froglube...I would add that if it gets cold, it pretty much becomes chunky.
Click to expand...

Thanks man. Going to mix some up tonite and hit the range in the am. I have a bunch of those small brownells needle oilers, they should work great.
 
#83
Cobracutter said:
Is he supposed to post the test results here?

Expert from the company just told you what to use and why. Pretty self explainitory. KevinB is a well respected member of shooting community and it would be wise to listen to what he says, even sans detailed explaination.
Click to expand...

I asked Kevin a question and you answer for him, how does that work. I don't expect him to post all the test results, but I did spend a couple grand on one of Kac's rifles and you would think that Kevin would not mind taking a minute of his time to answer a simple question. I generally don't take everything someone says to me at face value without questioning their reasoning. If you do then jump off a bridge it's good for you, I'm sure of it.
 
#86
Avoid frog lube at all costs. Over time it will gum up your firearms. I jumped onto the Frog Lube bandwagon last year... and I have experienced nothing but problems when the temps dropped. The liquid "lube" I have has congealed and turned into a sticky substance. I have followed directions carefully and still experience what a lot of Frog Lube users have encountered. I cannot recommend this product to anyone, definitely wouldn't recommend it on a carry weapon.

Do a google search on frog lube getting sticky / frog lube problems and you will see. Froglube fails miserably.....A word of caution. - The Firing Line Forums
 
#87
Shoottothrill said:
No problem. Not in a hurry. Just don't understand why someone else answers a question when it wasn't asked of them. For that matter he didn't even answer the question, just wanted to argue with someone like usual.
Click to expand...

Kevin works for KAC. KAC has a ton of propietary technology and does not disclose it to the public. They also have more business sense than to come out and blast one or another Lube business, even if they failed massively. He told you what to use, thats all your need to know. When it comes to a KAC product, just do what he tells you. Did you not read his response.... he says EXACTLY why you should use fireclean instead of FL. Does he need to write a detailed analysis and show the test parameters and results for you to understand this?

KAC spends a metric shit ton of money and time in R&D to develop some kick ass weapon systems. Much of the "secrecy" that people think they have, is to keep thiefs and compycats from trying to steal that.

There is no arguement here. An expert gets asked a question and gives their take. They don't owe it to you, or me or anyone to explain. Especialy when the very question has already been awsnered. Kevin, sorry if I am overstepping but stupid questions and silly banter is why people in the industry choose not to contribute to the forums.
 
#88
I'm going to try the FIREClean. I think MS Clean are offering both FIREClean and Frog Lube in their cleaning kits after doing testing. https://www.facebook.com/2001301801...0130180145157/238189853005856/?type=1&theater I met a guy at a local range that swore by the FIREClean. I just put together an AR and it was really tight, put a few drops of it on critical places and it really smoothed out. Looking forward to seeing how it does at the range.
 
#89
EddieNFL said:
I wonder what do all, end all lube we'll be arguing about next year.
Click to expand...



Lard.

With added wear and detergent modifiers and a spritz of biscuit smell for that yummy aroma.



Some applications / guns require a grease and others an oil. Use your favorite and clean and replace as necessary.
 
#91
Much of this strikes me like listening to guys arguing over chevy/ford vehicles. Both vehicles, and both lubes work, and everyone has their personal preference and recommendation.

I enjoy reading people's recommendations, and the rationale behind them as that information helps me decide which products I may spend my money on.

If a store carried both products at the same price, then the decision would be much more difficult. However, seldom will that be the case, so there are many more variables to consider:

Hot weather performance
How well does the product keep carbon from sticking?
What does it smell like?
Does it burn your hands (sweet's 7.62)?
Cold weather performance.
Durability.
Rust prevention.
How does it work for general cleaning?
How readily available is it?
How much per unit does it cost?
Is it made in the USA?
Does the manufacturer support activities I like? (some petroleum product makers aren't so gun friendly)

My point is that there are a great many variables, and both Froglube, and Fireclean are great products. I would be happy to use either product, or I could live the rest of my life using other products and still be happy.

Although there have been some excellent points made in this thread, at some point when discussion denigrates into argument, I loose interest in attempting to glean more information from a thread.
 
#92
Much of this strikes me like listening to guys arguing over chevy/ford vehicles. Both vehicles, and both lubes work, and everyone has their personal preference and recommendation.

I enjoy reading people's recommendations, and the rationale behind them as that information helps me decide which products I may spend my money on.

If a store carried both products at the same price, then the decision would be much more difficult. However, seldom will that be the case, so there are many more variables to consider:

Hot weather performance
How well does the product keep carbon from sticking?
What does it smell like?
Does it burn your hands (sweet's 7.62)?
Cold weather performance.
Durability.
Rust prevention.
How does it work for general cleaning?
How readily available is it?
How much per unit does it cost?
Is it made in the USA?
Does the manufacturer support activities I like? (some petroleum product makers aren't so gun friendly)

My point is that there are a great many variables, and both Froglube, and Fireclean are great products. I would be happy to use either product, or I could live the rest of my life using other products and still be happy.

Although there have been some excellent points made in this thread, at some point when discussion denigrates into argument, I loose interest in attempting to glean more information from a thread.
 
#93
I cant say much about Fireclean but I have used frog lube to some extent. Overall I love the product but I have one major beef with it, I live in WI and this past winter the temp has dropped below zero 25 times or so. In that kind of cold, frog lube becomes hard as a rock and will make anything short of an AK malfunction. I have had perfectly good pistols, ARs, and my m1a freeze up tight with frog lube. I know that sub zero temps are fairly extreme conditions but for me it is something I have to deal with. If I lived in a warmer climate I wouldn't hesitate with frog lube.
 
#97
MetroJethro said:
I tested FrogLube on my Wilson Defender (1911). Action was smooth but after awhile I discovered a few issues.


1) FL does not clean copper or lead fowling. So to clean your barrel you have to use another solvent, which as stated above, does not play well with FL.

2) using an IWB holster, my body temperature would heat up the weapon and cause the FL to run. Ruined a couple of shirts. Even though I wiped all the access off and the stuff would continue to run.

3) As a rust preventative, I was not that impressed. To keep the rust from forming you had add more FL (it is a barrier protectant) which led to the above issue and would cause serious carbon build up.

I have switched back to CLP and Shooter Choice. Just my first hand experience.

P.S. Not a big fan of having to heat up the gun to get the best results, but on the plus side you can use it on your chapped lips when shooting in the winter or summer.
Click to expand...

I posted this on another thread but it is applicable here as well.

I begin with Hoppes #9 to get the copper out of the bore. Nothing in my experience works as well. I think my dad used it as well. Been around for a long time. I am careful to use it sparingly as I don't want it getting on any polymer parts. However, I don't think it would be harmful.

I follow that with M-Pro 7 cleaner to get rid of any final traces of the Hoppes out of the barrel and to get all of the powder residue and gunk off of the various parts. No worries about interactions.

I follow that with a small amount of M-Pro 7 gun oil LPX. This is a lubricant only not a CLP. I stay away from anything labelled CLP as it is a cleaner-lubricant. I have found these type of products are not as good as standalone cleaners and lubricants. I use VERY little of the oil. I used to overdo it and had all sorts of issues with gumming. It really is amazing how little you actually need and how few places it is needed.

I have used M-Pro products for a long time with excellent results in all environments on all of my SA rifles and pistols.

Just my 2 cents.

BR,
 
#98
Just got this in an Email, If you're interested in trying FireClean nows a good time, they are offering free shipping at the moment. The coupon code for free shipping on shop.cleanergun.com is GWBD. Just enter it after the billing and shipping address and the shipping fees are waived.
 
#99
Experimented with both and I feel Froglube does a better job and lasts longer. I had to scrub more on guns that I used fire clean on. The froglube was literally a wipe down process and its was clean. Just my .02
 
#100
I like FL for lubrication and cleaning of Glocks and similar guns. A little paste goes a long way. I switched from FL to Fireclean in my ARs and FN SLP shotgun because it worked so much better in the BCG and gas piston. Really hot gasses seem to burn the Frog (and add carbon residue in the shotgun), but not Fireclean.

I use WeaponShield oil and grease in my precision bolt guns because it is a better lubricant and corrosion preventive.
 
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