Fireforming 223AI with 88gr ELDM's?

[steve123]

I just want to get right into using these bullets for fireforming while shooting long range. I'll be using Varget, CCI450's and virgin Starline brass.

Hodgdon lists 22.3gr as max for 90SMK, would the minimum of 21gr fully fireform the brass or should I split the difference at say 21.7?

 

[Dai Bando]

Max load should be good to go, but I'd still wanna work up.

I have a 7 twist .223ai bbl on the way for the 88's and I'm betting we won't be able to push them fast enough to better the 75 ELD's.

Let me know where you end up velocity wise.

 

[steve123]

Sure will. Mine is a 7 twist too

 

[Bradu]

I run 80 grain in mine for fireforming with 23 grains of varget. I would say you will be fine but I would work up to it just to make sure

 

[redneckbmxer24]

When I shot 223AI it took a couple firings to completely form the brass regardless of how hot they were but one firing mostly formed it.

Do a load workup just like you normally would looking for pressure and nodes. Find the load it likes and run it, other than the lower velocity you shouldn't know you're fire forming when shooting. Just tossing in a charge be it minimum, max, or in between probably isn't going to net you a positive result unless you get lucky. I always picked a lower or middle node when fireforming, it just made sense to me when that much case growth is involved.

I think you're on the right track with using 90gr SMK data. If it were me I'd feel perfectly comfortable with the 21gr starting charge and working up with a ladder in .1gr increments. Just keep your case volume with your seating depth in mind, most factory data is going to be with bullets seated deeper than most smiths will throat for when heavies are going to be shot.

 

[Bradu]

I noticed my shoulders were sharper after the second firing as well. Don't think there is much difference in case capacity though.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Yeah as long as you're in a solid node it's not enough to make a difference. I always did development after the first firing and nothing ever shifted after.

 

[Dai Bando]

There is no reason to do load work up in .1 grain increments or from the very bottom of .223 data with a heavier bullet.

Shoulders should be sharp after the first firing. If they aren't, I'd be looking at either adding more powder or going to a faster powder and lighter bullets.

 

[steve123]

Well, it was a nice try (not) that my GS did attempting to throat for the 88's in my 223AI, it was "only a tenth of an inch too short".

So I'll fireform all my brass then take the rifle back to him for correct throating.

So I used Berger 70gr vld's and some old BW36 chinese powder instead, which is close in burn rate to 3031 powder, for fireforming brass today. I guessed at 19.5 grains, it was perfect I think, a nice light to medium load for hardening the heel of the case and to blow the shoulder forward.

With this load I shot my first group after sighting in, it was .5", maybe a hair less, for 5 shots so already good potential. Then didn't miss the 425Y Turkey once I figured where I was hitting.

 

[munsonbw]

Resurrecting this thread instead of starting another one.

I am looking at some inexpensive barrels to chamber in .223ai and the 1:8 seems more common than 1:7. That rules out the 88gr ELD-Ms, but as Dai Bando states, estimated velocities run through strelok show little advantage over the 75gr running faster. Any further data on this? I am at a decision point: ~26" 1:8 .223AI and ream it myself, or try out a Criterion in 1:7. If the Criterion do I do AI or standard. I will shoot club PRS and F-class, but since I am new to both I am really just testing my skill out and not too worried about classification.

 

[BR7.62]

ragged hole has 8 twist light varmint wilson barrels for 160$
recently bought lapua loaded ammo for 60c a round firgured it made more sense to fireform in the ackley that way than buy bare lapua brass for 55c

 

[munsonbw]

edited:
I called again and got through. My email bounce back was my typo. All is good with ragged holes.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Not a smart ass comment but the way I'm reading this is 2 fires to fully form your brass, then would come load development, all for 100ish fps? I love 223 and would love to get more out of it but I completely don't get all that work for that little bit more. Am I missing something other than faster is better? That's 60ish grains of powder for your first "true" load right?

 

[munsonbw]

Steve123 and many others I have read are getting sub 0.5 moa groups during fire forming. So, assuming the rifle has the potential to be accurate you can shoot about whatever you want (targets, varmints, etc) during the fire forming process. But yeah, 100fps is about what it boils down to. I have hardly ever heard of a .223ai that wasn't very accurate, but since its a wildcat I would imagine few people are rechambing poor shooting barrels to get there.

 

[BR7.62]

Paydirt, there plenty of stranger things going on in cartridges
Look at all the 6mm cartridges that are practically identical people go nuts for!
Still a cheap wildcat to shoot and develop with good barrel life.

Ragged hole shipped the blanks yesterday that I ordered yesterday, amazing.

 

[munsonbw]

Yep. And a much reduced case trimming schedule is also an often cited plus.

 

[steve123]

I forgot about this thread, sorry?!

An update is in order I suppose. I had only bought 100 Starline cases to fireform and did all the fireforming with the short throat and only the components I had mentioned. That combo worked well and the shoulders were formed well on the first firing.

A month or so later I had the barrel throated out properly.

I did a ladder test and found 24.6 grains of Varget, behind the 88ELDM, and ignited with CCI450's, with a COAL of 2.614", gave 2813 fps in a 28" 7 twist Benchmark barrel. That was the low node BTW. Even with 26.3 grains, which was the hottest I used in the ladder test, it didn't have a flat primer yet.

Brass has shown no signs of primer pocket loosening in 4 firings.

I can only compare 223 to 223AI in that the load above is more like my 6mmBR with 105's than my AR with 70's at 2600 fps or my buds 223 with 62's at 2900 fps.

It was worth it to me trying both 223AI and the 88's, better than one would think at 1122Y, which is as far as I've shot this load with my rifle.

But by far the attribute I appreciate most is the extremely low recoil and rifle upset this rifle and cartridge system delivers, it's sweet!

 

[munsonbw]

Great info, steve. I will be running aics style mags which limit me to 2.550” or so. I assume your coal is given by the freebore. Any idea if there is enough room in the case to seat the 88s to mag length?

 

[steve123]

I don't at 2.550.

Mine is a single shot benchrest rifle so I just wanted the bottom of the bearing surface of the bullet above the neck/shoulder junction and at that length the 88's are just off the lands.

But I saw in a thread somewhere here on the Hide that a Co' makes long 223 mags which will take a longer COAL that is similar to what mine has.

 

[DIBBS]

I have been fireforming for my 8 twist Benchmark .223 AI with 24.3 grains Varget and 77 CC's/205's My barrel is 23" long, and this combo shoots incredible. It is not throated long, COL is 2.29-30, and the chamber is set up with a good crush fit on factory brass. It appears in reading these threads that there are two schools of thought on fireforming, hammer it out in one go, or if you do it more gradually cases may last longer. Mine are pretty well formed in my chamber with the above load. While I HAVE been using Varget for the 223 AI loads, is anyone running 8208 XBR. If so, curious what your loads are, with the normal caveat every chamber is different, reduce and work up, etc. Thanks.

 

[dtraub215]

I don't at 2.550.

Mine is a single shot benchrest rifle so I just wanted the bottom of the bearing surface of the bullet above the neck/shoulder junction and at that length the 88's are just off the lands.

But I saw in a thread somewhere here on the Hide that a Co' makes long 223 mags which will take a longer COAL that is similar to what mine has.

what company made those long magazines?

 

[steve123]

Sorry I can't remember.