First 308

[Sonofsammo]

Hi all, I live in the UK and I'm relatively new to shooting "proper" guns and the time is fast(ish) approaching that I will be able to buy my first rifle.

I've currently got access to 100m outdoor range and 25m indoor. There will be the opportunity in the future for me to access ranges where I can stretch its legs up to 1000m.
I want a 308 bolt action and am open to ideas - My budget is £1000 - £1250 (so probably the same as $1250 ish).
I've already got a decent optic for it, so that's the budget just for the rifle.
I really, really want an AT308 (£3300 here) , but sadly I just don't have the funds (well, if funds were no barrier, actually I'd get an SRS, but that's a ridiculous £6000 here).
I haven't had the opportunity to get hands on with many 308s, so far. I've tried the Mossberg Predator, which I quite liked and the Tikka T3, which was okay - although tbh, I didn't get to put that many rounds through them, so it's far from conclusive!
Any helpful suggestions would be most welcome.
TIA

 

[Sonofsammo]

Why a .308? 6.5 CM is mobetter.

A couple of reasons.
1. The rounds cost more - I'm target shooting, rather than hunting, so round count will be higher - and I want to be able to afford to shoot!
2. I've only asked for .22lr / .223 / .308 and / .357 on my Firearms certificate, so couldn't buy 6.5 creedmoor without getting a variation.

 

[fdkay]

Hi all, I live in the UK and I'm relatively new to shooting "proper" guns and the time is fast(ish) approaching that I will be able to buy my first rifle.

I've currently got access to 100m outdoor range and 25m indoor. There will be the opportunity in the future for me to access ranges where I can stretch its legs up to 1000m.
I want a 308 bolt action and am open to ideas - My budget is £1000 - £1250 (so probably the same as $1250 ish).
I've already got a decent optic for it, so that's the budget just for the rifle.
I really, really want an AT308 (£3300 here) , but sadly I just don't have the funds (well, if funds were no barrier, actually I'd get an SRS, but that's a ridiculous £6000 here).
I haven't had the opportunity to get hands on with many 308s, so far. I've tried the Mossberg Predator, which I quite liked and the Tikka T3, which was okay - although tbh, I didn't get to put that many rounds through them, so it's far from conclusive!
Any helpful suggestions would be most welcome.
TIA

If you could tell us what is available in your area, we might be of more help.
Howa makes some fine rifles and the Tikka is highly regarded here.
Another to to research is Lithgow Arms out of Australia, they sell a dandy rifle that checks all the boxes for modern shooters.
Are Bergara rifles available there? Another good option. I recently handled a Bergara Premier LE model, though I didn't have an opportunity to shoot it, I was VERY impressed the build quality, the trigger was amazing and the fit and finish was excellent. Of course, that model is built here and may not be available to you there, but their other models seem to perform very well.
If you can get a Tikka CTR in your price range, it is hard to beat and can be made better with a quality chassis when funds allow.

 

[BigKev72]

I love Howa personally, if you have them available to you then I would look at them. The UK has a few pretty good long range match clubs, have you thought about hopping in with them? (Think Bisley) if you do then you may want to hold off until you get into that before you buy anything. They often have club rifles you can use or some kind soul might loan you one. At that point all the hinting rifles are out of the window. As for all of the 6.5 CM stuff, it’s a fine round but all this “it takes ten 308 rounds to hit a target vs one 6.5CM” is complete and utter man bun drivel. If you can’t hit round for round with either caliber then you (not the round, you) suck.

 

[pineoak]

Tikka Varmint T3x is a great gun. I'd get it in .223 personally if you're not competing. Inside of 600 is easy, past 800 it's harder to see hits on steel.

Tikka T3x with the thicker/non hunting barrels are great.

 

[Rerun7]

Why a .308? 6.5 CM is mobetter.

That’s some crap only a 6.5 CM shooter would say.

Sincerely,

A .308 shooter

 

[Rerun7]

OP - most will give the consensus that a Tikka CTR or similar is going to be one of the best bangs for your buck in a production rifle. Swap the stock to something like a KRG Bravo and you’ve got a rig that you can shoot and learn on for a lot of years.

Nothing wrong with .308. They are easy to load for, very accurate and have a great barrel life. The ballistics are a little behind some of the other cartridges but that’s part of the trade offs for barrel life, etc.

 

[308pirate]

What is a firearms certificate?

Combine that term with the country he said he lives in and Google is your friend

 

[308pirate]

As for all of the 6.5 CM stuff, it’s a fine round but all this “it takes ten 308 rounds to hit a target vs one 6.5CM” is complete and utter man bun drivel. If you can’t hit round for round with either caliber then you (not the round, you) suck.

+1000

Also great advice to try before he buys.

 

[C-grunt]

That’s some crap only a 6.5 CM shooter would say.

Sincerely,

A .308 shooter

I'm a 6.5 CM shooter and even I think that statement was dumb.

OP... I had a friend with the Mossberg rifle and it was an okay hunting rifle. In my opinion it is a budget rifle. The Tikka on the other hand is a very well made rifle. Between those two I'd pick the Tikka by a long shot.

 

[143lrsd]

Think about a Bergara HMR B-14. I know that I have found them in the States for less than 1K and they are a sub MOA gun. In my opinion, they are a solid rifle for the money. B-14 HMR (Hunting and Match) Rifle - Bergara Rifles USA

 

[Sonofsammo]

I love Howa personally, if you have them available to you then I would look at them. The UK has a few pretty good long range match clubs, have you thought about hopping in with them? (Think Bisley) if you do then you may want to hold off until you get into that before you buy anything. They often have club rifles you can use or some kind soul might loan you one. At that point all the hinting rifles are out of the window. As for all of the 6.5 CM stuff, it’s a fine round but all this “it takes ten 308 rounds to hit a target vs one 6.5CM” is complete and utter man bun drivel. If you can’t hit round for round with either caliber then you (not the round, you) suck.

I like the look of the Howa Oryx - looks like it would fit the bill, but I've read about feeding issues, which puts me off a little.
I'd like to get to Bisley one day, but sadly it's a good couple of hundred miles away from me. I didn't realise there were lots of long range clubs, so I'll have to have a gander and see what I can find. Thanks for the heads up! :-D

What is a firearms certificate?

I’d request the variation for 6.5 so you have it if you end up going 6.5 (or 6mm) in the future. It’s going to take more 308 rounds to hit a target beyond 700m vs a 6.5 cm, all things equal so I wonder if you’re really saving any money going with a 308.

A FAC is what we have to apply for, in the UK, to be able to own firearms. There are many hoops to jump through, including police visits, character references, medical checks etc. On the FAC application, you have to state what you want to own - if it's not on there, you can't buy it. Whatever you put on there, you have to have secure storage for. So you can't just put down every type of gun, just in case you fancy buying them at some point. You have to show your FAC to buy a firearm - and if the relevant gun isn't on the FAC, you can't have it. Unless you get a variation and do a 1:1 swap. It's fun!

If you could tell us what is available in your area, we might be of more help.
Howa makes some fine rifles and the Tikka is highly regarded here.
Another to to research is Lithgow Arms out of Australia, they sell a dandy rifle that checks all the boxes for modern shooters.
Are Bergara rifles available there? Another good option. I recently handled a Bergara Premier LE model, though I didn't have an opportunity to shoot it, I was VERY impressed the build quality, the trigger was amazing and the fit and finish was excellent. Of course, that model is built here and may not be available to you there, but their other models seem to perform very well.
If you can get a Tikka CTR in your price range, it is hard to beat and can be made better with a quality chassis when funds allow.

As far as I know, we can get most things if they're standard - it's when it becomes custom/exotic it gets harder to hold of, I think.
Thanks for the advice, I'll check those out.

Tikka Varmint T3x is a great gun. I'd get it in .223 personally if you're not competing. Inside of 600 is easy, past 800 it's harder to see hits on steel.

Tikka T3x with the thicker/non hunting barrels are great.

What makes you say .223 ? Is it just ammo cost, or is there something else?


I was looking at CZ yesterday - they seem to make some nice rifles - any thoughts, for what I'm looking for?
TIA

 

[308pirate]

I like the look of the Howa Oryx - looks like it would fit the bill, but I've read about feeding issues, which puts me off a little.

How often have you read of these "feeding issues"? Who were the sources? Are they credible?

You need a filter.

 

[BigKev72]

Look at the CZ varmint rifles. They can usually hold their own in any company.
Going back to Howa, zero feeding problems on my end, even before I switched to a chassis with AICS mags. The internal box mag was utterly reliable. No feeding problems ever on mine.

 

[BigKev72]

English Twenty

This may help you out. This is a list of email contacts for clubs by county. No clue where you are but there are lots of links. They may able to help steer you towards a club in your area. Once you try fullbore the rest of shooting sports might just pale in comparison. Also your glass budget will be for a good spotting scope.

 

[308pirate]

Going back to Howa, zero feeding problems on my end, even before I switched to a chassis with AICS mags. The internal box mag was utterly reliable. No feeding problems ever on mine.

Same here on all three that I've owned.

 

[houndog]

Tikka CTR. Upgrade the trigger with a YoDave spring (costs about $10). When you get the funds swap out the stock for a KRG or XLR. Maybe add an Area 419 or APA muzzle brake.

With a little practice you'll be consistently shooting sub MOA at 100 yards/meters. With a little more practice you should start seeing .5", .6" and .7" groups.

And absolutely nothing wrong with .308. The 6.5CM will be less affected by the wind, doesn't drop as much (particularly once you get out to about 700 yards/meters) and will have less recoil - which is why it's generally more popular here. But .308 can definitely get the job done, under 4-500 yards you will notice virtually no difference (other than a little more recoil), will give you much better barrel life and ammo will generally be a little cheaper and generally more available (I suspect this is particularly true in the UK).

 

[Winny94]

What is a firearms certificate?

I’d request the variation for 6.5 so you have it if you end up going 6.5 (or 6mm) in the future. It’s going to take more 308 rounds to hit a target beyond 700m vs a 6.5 cm, all things equal so I wonder if you’re really saving any money going with a 308.

Is this a joke?

 

[BigKev72]

I think

Is this a joke?

just knobbery.

 

[BigKev72]

Learn to read wind and adjust your sights and wind isn’t a biggie. I could sail them in the center bull all day at 1000 with a 308 back in my match shooting days.(Yes, I know...former glory, but hell I could do the same thing with a .303 too). Did 15 in a row center mass on a 6” plate at 800 the other day, and this isn’t a match rifle with micrometer sights just a plinker with a scope.

 

[BigKev72]

The big takeaway on the caliber discussion is do what’s good for you. The 308 is viable, as are the others if you want to modify your licenses. However don’t read too much into the hype running around regarding all these super cartridges. Not damn one of them have homing projectiles. Go with what you are doing, learn to shoot, have fun, show all the man buns that 308’s are still fun.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I own both a .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor.
You will have a great time with either.
.308 is a good round, reloading will improve and tune it performance wise to your rifle.
If you don't decide to reload, there is excellent factory available.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

@BigKev72 , do you need a manbun to own a 6.5 Creedmoor?
Oh shit, now I know what's lacking in my life..... manbun and scented beard oil.

 

[Sonofsammo]

Many thanks for all the advice, it's given me plenty of food for thought.
As far as the Howa informtaion goes, iirc there was a thread on here about it and a couple of youtube videos. As I said, it only put me off a little, so am happy to hear others have had no problems.
I'm looking forward to things opening up again so I can get hands on with some of them!

 

[Sonofsammo]

One of the ROs let me shoot his Tikka T3x Tac A1 the other day. It's a very nice rifle indeed and I was able to get some decent groups with it on the 100m range. It's affected my thinking regarding rifle choice, for sure.
I'm a little torn now...
The prices for the three rifles I'm looking at are:
Howa Oryx - £1100
Tikka T3x Tac A1 - £1775
AI AT308 - £3399
Now as far as pricing/performance goes, is the Oryx really only half as good as the Tikka? And is the AI twice as good as the Tikka?
At the moment, I'm wondering with the AI what I'd be paying the extra for. And with the Oryx, I'm wondering what I'd be giving up...

 

[fdkay]

The answers to your questions are no and no.
However, Tikka maintains high enough standards that pre-fit shouldered barrels are available should you want or need to replace your barrel. Some tools would be required, but it isn't difficult.
An AI is an AI, not much else can be said. Custom rifle performance at a custom rifle price, but it ain't a custom. You can also jump out of airplanes with it, scale mountains, rappel off buildings etc...
Barrel changes are easy.
That being said, where is the Sako TRG in your lineup?

 

[pineoak]

Tikka CTR. Upgrade the trigger with a YoDave spring (costs about $10). When you get the funds swap out the stock for a KRG or XLR. Maybe add an Area 419 or APA muzzle brake.

And absolutely nothing wrong with .308. The 6.5CM will be less affected by the wind, doesn't drop as much (particularly once you get out to about 700 yards/meters) and will have less recoil - which is why it's generally more popular here. But .308 can definitely get the job done, under 4-500 yards you will notice virtually no difference (other than a little more recoil), will give you much better barrel life and ammo will generally be a little cheaper and generally more available (I suspect this is particularly true in the UK).

+1

except for the brake. I really hate muzzle brakes. Do they work? yes. I used to love them for that reason.

but when you get older, you realize how fragile and important hearing is (I still have my hearing which is still great)

so many of my shooting buddies are almost deaf from not using enough ear pro in the earlier years

I only run suppressed now for bolt guns. If a silencer is an option for you on that side of the pond, look into Thunderbeast Ultra 2 suppressors. The cost is worth the $ in less hearing loss over the years. Even if you only shoot 2k rounds a year, that's a LOT of high decibel exposure that adds up. Hearing loss is cumulative and doesn't "recover" or heal.

If not, either shoot without a brake, or find one that isn't horribly loud and obnoxious, or blasts concussion back toward you as the shooter or the people next to you.

Personal issue. Sharing it publicly.

Both of the brakes houndog mentioned are very high quality and very effective brakes. I've used the APA little bastard on numerous guns, and the Area 419 on 2 rifles likely 6mm. Both very effective at what they're intended for.

Blowing eardrums. (and taming recoil)

 

[BuLLet]

If you were to go for the AI AT308 what's the story with extra barrels for it in the UK? Do they have to be on the FAC too? Or not allowed at all?

If you're limited to just these few guns, hands down I'd break the bank and go for the AI. Especially if you can get extra barrels for it.

One of the ROs let me shoot his Tikka T3x Tac A1 the other day. It's a very nice rifle indeed and I was able to get some decent groups with it on the 100m range. It's affected my thinking regarding rifle choice, for sure.
I'm a little torn now...
The prices for the three rifles I'm looking at are:
Howa Oryx - £1100
Tikka T3x Tac A1 - £1775
AI AT308 - £3399
Now as far as pricing/performance goes, is the Oryx really only half as good as the Tikka? And is the AI twice as good as the Tikka?
At the moment, I'm wondering with the AI what I'd be paying the extra for. And with the Oryx, I'm wondering what I'd be giving up...

 

[pineoak]

Accuracy International AT-X > AT308

 

[houndog]

Not going to disagree with pineoak on the importance of protecting your hearing. When I lived in Massachusetts (20+ years) I kind of got used to muzzle brakes on AR's since flash hiders were verboten. And trust me, an AR10 with a 14.5" barrel and a muzzle brake can be LOUD.

But I'm pretty fanatical about using both foam plugs and electronic muffs, which dramatically reduce what reaches your ears. However, if you go this route, I would recommend getting electronic muffs because with regular ones you will have difficulty hearing anything anyone else on the firing line is saying unless they are next to you and really shouting, which can create a safety issue.

And the plus of muzzle brakes on a long range bolt action rifle is that they tame some of the recoil which can become significant if you don't have a spotter and therefore need to see your misses to adjust your elevation and windage.

 

[ElectricFuneral]

OP, I would take a look at the Unique Alpine UPG-1 as well... It's an affordable version of their TPG rifle. Not imported in the US, hence not much talk on this forum, and still quite unknown in Europe as well.

 

[Sonofsammo]

That being said, where is the Sako TRG in your lineup?

It's not in the line up, cos it costs too much compared to the others over here. It's only £300 less than the AT308, which would then make buying the AI a much easier choice.

If you were to go for the AI AT308 what's the story with extra barrels for it in the UK? Do they have to be on the FAC too? Or not allowed at all?

If you're limited to just these few guns, hands down I'd break the bank and go for the AI. Especially if you can get extra barrels for it.

You can have the extra barrels, so long as you have them listed on your FAC. Afaik, they actually count as a firearm, as it's a pressure bearing part - so to have any pressure bearing part of a particular firearm, you have to have that firearm on your licence.

OP, I would take a look at the Unique Alpine UPG-1 as well... It's an affordable version of their TPG rifle. Not imported in the US, hence not much talk on this forum, and still quite unknown in Europe as well.

I've never heard of that rifle, or that company, where's it from?

 

[ElectricFuneral]

Germany. There are very few articles on the internet about the rifle itself (no marketing behind it), but the company is well known for those who have been around for a while.

It's worth taking a look though.

 

[BuLLet]

FN Ballista is made by Alpine. It's a superb rifle. I got one last year, it's a winner in my book.

Germany. There are very few articles on the internet about the rifle itself (no marketing behind it), but the company is well known for those who have been around for a while.

It's worth taking a look though.

 

[Sonofsammo]

That being said, where is the Sako TRG in your lineup?

It seems it is now, by a twist of fate.
I was asking at my local shop for them to quote on the three rifles I'm looking at.
They said the same - why not look at the TRG 22 we've got in already?
My response was the same - cos they're 3K.
Well not this one... It was owned by an older chap who put a couple of hundred rounds down it and then changed his competition discipline, as it was too much for him to carry on as he was. So it's up for £1875, which puts it in direct competition with a Tac A1.
I had a fiddle with it and it seems like a really nice, well made rifle.
It's frustrating I can't shoot it before I buy...

 

[fdkay]

It seems it is now, by a twist of fate.
I was asking at my local shop for them to quote on the three rifles I'm looking at.
They said the same - why not look at the TRG 22 we've got in already?
My response was the same - cos they're 3K.
Well not this one... It was owned by an older chap who put a couple of hundred rounds down it and then changed his competition discipline, as it was too much for him to carry on as he was. So it's up for £1875, which puts it in direct competition with a Tac A1.
I had a fiddle with it and it seems like a really nice, well made rifle.
It's frustrating I can't shoot it before I buy...

There is a reason they call the Tikka a poor mans Sako. At one time, they cataloged the Tikka Sporter, which came in a laminated stock with the same basic configuration as the TRG.
The TRG is a highly respected, incredibly well built rifle. Some prefer the trigger on the TRG, some prefer the easy barrel change on the AI. Accuracy wise, they are pretty much a wash.
Here is the Sporter (no longer made):

Tikka Legendary Models

The Tikka models that are now considered legendary

www.tikka.fi

 

[nn8734]

It seems it is now, by a twist of fate.
I was asking at my local shop for them to quote on the three rifles I'm looking at.
They said the same - why not look at the TRG 22 we've got in already?
My response was the same - cos they're 3K.
Well not this one... It was owned by an older chap who put a couple of hundred rounds down it and then changed his competition discipline, as it was too much for him to carry on as he was. So it's up for £1875, which puts it in direct competition with a Tac A1.
I had a fiddle with it and it seems like a really nice, well made rifle.
It's frustrating I can't shoot it before I buy...

I’d go back to that shop immediately and buy that TRG22. Couple hundred rounds? It’s not even fully broken in yet (it’s near brand new). You’re getting a premier rifle for an entry level price. If you don’t like the stock ergos, drop it in a KRG Whiskey folder and you’d be good to go. Worse case you just don’t like it you can always sell it and likely get more than what you paid for it.

 

[fdkay]

I’d go back to that ship immediately and buy that TRG22. Couple hundred rounds? It’s not even fully broken I’m yet (it’s near brand new). Youre getting a premier rifle for an entry level price. If you don’t like the stock ergos, drop it in a KRG Whiskey folder and you’d be good to go. Worse case you just don’t like it you can always sell it and likely get more than what you paid for it.

Much easier said than done where he is.
One doesn't just buy and sell firearms there.

 

[nn8734]

Much easier said than done where he is.
One doesn't just buy and sell firearms there.

True, but the risk, especially at that price, is low so not likely he will even need to cross that bridge IMO. The TRG is an awesome platform and will serve him well prob for the remainder of his life if he stays with the sport/hobby.

 

[fdkay]

True, but the risk, especially at that price, is low so not likely he will even need to cross that bridge IMO. The TRG is an awesome platform and will serve him well prob for the remainder of his life if he stays with the sport/hobby.

That is a true statement, which is really why i brought up the TRG to begin with.

 

[ElectricFuneral]

I'd listen to the gentlemen above and sneak that TRG 22.

 

[houndog]

Get the TRG. Period. I own a Tikka CTR that I put in an XLR chassis and I also own a Sako TRG. The Tikka is a very nice rifle, but it is not in the same class as the TRG. The worst 5 round group I've ever shot with the Sako is still sub MOA and it is rare that I have an outing with that rifle where I'm not able to shoot at least one sub .4 MOA group. And that's with commercial ammo.

In short, the Sako is one of the best production bolt action rifles on the planet.

 

[Graywolf.260]

I have a TRG and a TAC A1. The TAC can shoot, but if they were the same price I’d get the TRG without question (a TRG .308 with a couple hundred rounds is essentially the same as new).

 

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

I was going to recommend Tikka as well, I myself bought a Tikka T3X UPR recently and have fallen in love with it. But , if you don't drop everything and go get that Sako TRG-22 immediately , you and me and everyone else are going to be regretting it for the rest of our natural lives!

Especially if you can talk the guy down a little bit. 1,500's all I got, etc, please, c'mon, etc.

Buy Once Cry Once and You Only Live Once.

 

[Sonofsammo]

Shop's been shut for the bank holiday weekend.
I'll be heading over there tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to find out more about the scope too. It's got a nightforce of some description they're asking £900 for it (apparently retails at £1700), or the rifle and scope for £2700.
I've already got a Vortex Diamondback Tactical in need of a rifle, so was going to put that on it, but could be tempted...

 

[fdkay]

Shop's been shut for the bank holiday weekend.
I'll be heading over there tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to find out more about the scope too. It's got a nightforce of some description they're asking £900 for it (apparently retails at £1700), or the rifle and scope for £2700.
I've already got a Vortex Diamondback Tactical in need of a rifle, so was going to put that on it, but could be tempted...

Please, for the love of God, do not put a diamondback tactical on a TRG22.

 

[Sonofsammo]

Please, for the love of God, do not put a diamondback tactical on a TRG22.

LMAO - how come?
Tbf with scopes I don't even know what I don't know.
But I do know my eyes aren't that discerning... I had a Sig Whiskey 5, but when I had it up against a diamondback 3-10x50, I thought the Vortex had a clearer sight picture.
I'm not a lost cause though! I can learn!

 

[fdkay]

LMAO - how come?
Tbf with scopes I don't even know what I don't know.
But I do know my eyes aren't that discerning... I had a Sig Whiskey 5, but when I had it up against a diamondback 3-10x50, I thought the Vortex had a clearer sight picture.
I'm not a lost cause though! I can learn!

Something about putting a budget Chinese optic on a beautiful, top shelf, competition and snipers rifle.
If you can swing the Nightforce, it seems like a win-win, buying a complete system for less than the cost of just the rifle.

 

[nn8734]

LMAO - how come?
Tbf with scopes I don't even know what I don't know.
But I do know my eyes aren't that discerning... I had a Sig Whiskey 5, but when I had it up against a diamondback 3-10x50, I thought the Vortex had a clearer sight picture.
I'm not a lost cause though! I can learn!

The cheapest scopes end up costing the most.

Go with the NF if you can swing it in addition to the rifle. If not then run with the Vortex until it falls apart or until you can upgrade. Getting the rifle in your possession at that price takes priority. Scopes can be bought at anytime later.

Good luck, man. Hope that TRG becomes yours real soon.

 

[Sonofsammo]

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice.
I went back to the shop today and laid claim to it. Happy days!
Now I just need the paperwork to come through and then it's mine all mine!
I went for the scope and mounts as well, so it has Tier one mounts and Nightforce NXS 8-32x56 scope.
Now I just need to find a spare kidney to sell