First attempt at OCW ( added new string)

A

axarob44

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 14, 2017
389
133
Warren, Ohio
#1
photo64464.jpg

I shot this today with my 6.5 Creedmoor, Berger 140gr Hybrids and H4350 and don't really know how to move forward. I'm uncertain on the results because I don't understand why most of the third string I fired seems to stray from the previous shots. I don't feel that I pulled them and I did not get the barrel hot. Should I redo them again? Does it look like shooter error?
 
Last edited:
#2
I would load 42.0, 42.1 and 42.2 and shoot them again.

What your looking for is that horizontal spread. You see how they are all pretty flat at 42.1?

If you load the above and they all stay pretty flat then pick the middle charge and load it. You will then tighten the group up by a seating depth test.

For the record 42.0 is a pretty well known and that's what my rifle shoots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#3
Thank you kadams, I will do that. I was just re-reading the instructions again and wasn't really sure I did it right. Did not know about the 42 being known, Ill have to pass that along to my buddy too.
 
#4
It's not the horizontal spread you want to pay attention too, it's the vertical. Too many things the shooter does can cause the horizontal shift. What you're looking for is several groups with the same vertical impact. 42.3, 42.6, and 42.9 look similar. Chances are you will find a node at 41.9-42 but it may be that on the slower side. You'll find another between 42.5-42.7. Not sure what the rest of your components are (brass & primers) I shoot 140 Hybrids with H4350 as well and just finished working up a load via OCW when I put my new barrel on a few months ago. I use the newer Lapua brass with CCI 450 primers. I shot the same charges you have here....literally. I found a nice node at 42 that have me really low SD and ES numbers but was only about 2705. I had another node that I ended up with at 42.6 that also gave me very low SD and ES numbers but was 2785 so that is the one I went with because I wanted to run them a little faster than just 2700.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#5
42.1, 42.3 & 42.6 all impact at roughly the same area, just above the circle and it looks like it has the potential to be pretty forgiving. Im throwing my money on 42.2 but test a couple tenths each side and make sure there isnt a snake hiding in the grass. Then move to seating depths.
 
#11
You might consider 5 shot groups when doing an OCW. Yes a 3 shot group will work but if your new to this and have uncertainties, statistics are a lot more clear in larger numbers. An OCW is the foundation for a lot more rounds and money down the pipe; skimping in the beginning may cost more later on.
 
#12
I swear I read that the flat horizontal meant it was in a node. Maybe I have just been getting lucky lol. I shoot 5 shot groups when testing and 42.0 grains in my 26" barrel is 2800 FPS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#14
You are not looking for horizontal or vertical when you run an OCW test. You don't need five shot groups, and in my experience anyway, the same results show whether you round robin or not.

You are looking for common POI across different powder charges. Someone suggested to me once loading five of each in .1s across the node and one of the five would have a great SD. It seemed to work, but instead of doing that now. I load the middle of the node and run a length test across the chrono.
 
#15
42.2 is one node. Looks like it's coming back in at 43.2 which fits right in with nodes being 3% apart. I would shoot an OCW seating depth test at 42.2. After you get best seating depth I would shoot 43.2, .4 and .6 if you weren't seeing pressure. You should have a good load in no more than 30 more shots.
 
#16
F class and BR guys tell me they are looking for a harmonic transition between
vertical and horizontal dispersion . You seem to have it around 42 ish . As
mentioned above , I'd test again at 42 and 42.2 , then tweak bullet seating .
There will be a faster node up higher , but unless you are shooting over 1000
or shooting comps and chasing the edge , this node will do fine and give a bit
longer barrel life .
 
#17
jsthntn247 said:
42.2 is one node. Looks like it's coming back in at 43.2 which fits right in with nodes being 3% apart. I would shoot an OCW seating depth test at 42.2. After you get best seating depth I would shoot 43.2, .4 and .6 if you weren't seeing pressure. You should have a good load in no more than 30 more shots.
Click to expand...

I did not see any significant signs of pressure really, No hard bolt lift, the primers looked good, maybe slightly flattened a bit. .Firing pin strike looks good. No ejector marks. I did see a tiny bit of a nick on rim from the extractor (mini 16) on some, not all
 
#18
photo64584.jpg





This is the 43.2gr. the ring on the primer strike is always there (stock Remington bolt). The one on the right I tried to show the nick from the extractor. it's on the left edge of the right case. No heavy bolt lift though
 
Last edited:
#20
One thing to note, it may be confusing when people say they are looking for horizontal or vertical dispersion without the added context of within the group itself or from one group to the next. It is my understanding that you want to find a few sequential groups who have the same POI. How the shots are behaving within the group itself are meaningless, you only care where the center of each group is.

Once you find a node you can experiment with seating depth to try to induce positive changes to the group size itself. The idea behind it is that your POI will not change drastically if you over or under throw powder. If you are being super precise with an A&D FX-120i or something similar this method can still be useful to keeping POI similar over varying temperature ranges where the pressure will change.

An example would be if you shot some groups and noticed the same POI for 40.1, 40.2 and 40.3 grains in the spring. So you load up 40.2 and that is your load. In the winter your pressures will be closer to the 40.1 load and in the summer it will be closer to 40.3 but they will all have similar POI aside from velocity change which you can take note of and create velocity graphs based on ammo temperature.

Lets say you did not do this and you picked 40.7 because it looked like a good group but 40.6 was low and to the left and 40.8 was high and to the right (relative to the 40.7 load). So in the winter you not only have to worry about velocity change but also that the group may shift down and to the left. And in the summer you have to worry about increased velocity as well as the POI moving up and to the right.

At least this is how I understood it (OCW) to be, BUT I am a noob and may be completely wrong.
 
#21
I just re-read the Dan Newberry's instructions again and I think you're right. I'm trying to get this all worked out and I've been presented with a lot of information here. But from what I just read I think if I load somewhere in the middle of 42.2 to 42.5, I should have a pretty resilient load that is tolerant to variations. I'm going with the suggested 42.2
 
Last edited:
#22
Ok, so now do a seating depth test. Do you know where your bullet is seated relative to the lands? With a hybrid I would assume that you would want to start .015 off or so and I would load in five increments .01 shorter to see a wide window.
 
Last edited:
#23
spife, I used the method I think you posted the video about how to find the lands. I took the ejector and firing pin out and used the bolt lift method.

I came up with 2.177" CBTO with the 140 Hybrids. I talked to Jon at 419, he said it was chambered with a SAMMI Match chamber.

Right now I started at 'about' magazine length at 2.137" so about .040" off the lands right now.

 
Last edited:
#27
In that case I would test at absolute mag length that you can get to feed and back up in steps of, idk, .007? Just enough to make it little difference but not so deep so as to start pushing the bullet too deep into the case. You seem to have a good handle on what's actually going on though.
 
#28
Take 42.2 and back off in .010 increments and the groups might tighten up. If that's a new chamber, your smith needs a new damn reamer with a shorter freebore. No reason in the world to have a Creedmoor reamer that put's 140's past mag length while touching the lands in a fresh chamber. That's 90% of the reason for getting a barrel chambered. I could tell by looking at the groups you were too far off the lands.
 
#29
Well, I don't really know. I didnt reload at the time, I knew it was going to take a couple months to get set up. Is there any way to fix that? What are my options?, Use a different bullet? I would say its my fault because I was going to use factory ammo while before I got going. damn.

I don't want to stat pushing the bullet in and creating a compressed load situation
 
Last edited:
#30
axarob44 said:





The upper picture is a conglomeration of the one I shot yesterday and today and the bottom is from today only and. Not really sure if that helps but here's some more info to help narrow it down.

I've got to write all these suggestions down.... From yesterday

-jsthntn247: ....42.2 is a node...shoot 43.2, .4, .6, if no pressure

-Clearlight:....test 42 and 42.2 then tweak seating depth...will be another node higher

-spife 7980:....42.1, 42.3, and 42.6 has potential...throwing money on 42.2...test each side move onto seating depth

-kadams1563:......42.0, 42.1, 42.2 load them again and see.....42gr is a known load

-Darkside -six: node at 42.3, 42.6, 42.9 look similar...might find another node at 41.9, 42-2...finds another at 42.5 to 42.7


Click to expand...

Looking at the above picture your node is clearly between 42.1 & 42.4. They all have the same impact point. Load up 5 round groups for each of these 4......42.1, 42.2, 42.3, and 42.4. Fire each group over a chronograph and look at the numbers. chances are it will be one of the middle two.....42.2 or 42.3 but fire all 4 groups and see what your SD, ES, and average are.
 
#31
axarob44 said:
Well, I don't really know. I didnt reload at the time, I knew it was going to take a couple months to get set up. Is there any way to fix that? What are my options?, Use a different bullet? I would say its my fault because I was going to use factory ammo while before I got going. damn.

I don't want to stat pushing the bullet in and creating a compressed load situation
Click to expand...

Nothing you can do now but seat deeper until groups tighten up. You shouldn't be compressed, it should tighten up within .050. Stop shooting powder charge groups and stay with 42.2
 
#32
Suggesting now to go anywhere near "Jam", not that he's gonna do it, is nothing short of fucking stupid. To suggest that on this forum is irresponsible as hell. You go Jam to Jump, not Jump to Jam. If you don't know what your max load at Jam is you're gonna find out by scattering pieces all over hell and gone. Most people only get one good fuck up and this is a great way to get it. I have no idea who knows what but there's a lot of people on here that don't know shit. Some guy new to reloading gets on here and see's this as an option to tighten his groups up and stuffs one in the lands. Ya, that's not safe and you know it.

Good luck with your seating depth. Looks like you're on your way to a stable load.

edit: Our friend Tresmon said it well in one of the Sticky's. And I don't care if you're near or at book max or not.

Lastly- one final note and word of caution. Now that we know at what measurement OFF THE OGIVE our bullet –touches- the riflings, we will start our load development .010” jammed into the riflings. That is .010” LONGER than the dimension we figured up through this described process. That number was just touching the riflings. Most rifles like to be about .010” in (“Jammed”) This is the OAL we will start our powder make & charge test’s with. (Next chapter.)

However it is IMPERATIVE you understand the following. On occasion the rifle will prefer a different bullet/rifling relation. Perhaps it be .015” jammed, or .030” out of the rifling totally or .030” “jump.” But START ALL LOAD WORK JAMMED! This is because in the next chapter we are going to learn what actual MAX load for this rifle is with a given powder and this bullet. Being jammed into the riflings increases pressure! So as long as we learn our max powder charge while jammed, we are okay. HOWEVER, if we were to (think we) learn(ed) what max charge was without our bullet jammed and then jam it into the riflings, coupled with a max powder charge in search of a most accurate bullet setting we could blow up our rifle, loose both our eyes, our hearing a good portion of our face and destroy the rifle- that is if we come out of it alive. That all sounds scary, which is a good thing.

But so long as you START JAMMED and work towards JUMP your safe as can be. NEVER start jumping and move towards jammed when near or at MAX loads, no,no, no.

Well that covers determining where the bullet is in relation to the rifling and getting a good .010” jammed starting point. Next chapter is on experimenting with powders and charges.
 
Last edited:
#33
1j04, I did read that before I started pouring powder. I've read all the stickied information here and read the Berger manual and the Lee manual. I read that about starting your load jammed. I felt I didn't know enough yet to do that. I'm new but I know enough to be respectful of the danger when making cartridges. I started at the absolute book minimum and worked up to the book max. Then I looked at what you guys are loading here and I felt I wasn't being risky with my charges.
 
Last edited:
#34
axarob44 said:
1j04, I did read that before I started pouring powder. I've read all the stickied information here and read the Berger manual and the Lee manual. I read that about starting your load jammed. I was reluctant to do that right away just starting out. I'm new but I feel that I know enough to be respectful of the danger when making cartridges. I started at the absolute book minimum and worked up to the book max. Then I looked at what you guys are loading here and I felt I wasn't being risky with my charges.
Click to expand...

All good Brother. You appear to have a grip on it and kudos to you for that. My rant isn't at you at all and I'm happy it's all going well. My "concern" is somebody suggesting to all of a sudden try jamming after doing load development from jump. Someone that doesn't have a clue can interpret that as ok without understanding there can be grave consequences to that.
I could have said it much nicer, but without some shock value to open eyes and provoke serious thought I fired for effect. ;)
U got this and are on your way to ragged holes.
 
#36
axarob44 said:
I appreciate it, Shellback to Shellback !!
Click to expand...



Right on Shipmate. Just finished a seating depth test myself on the 7MM I built off of here buying every piece literally piece by piece. Call it my "Hide" gun. Barrel, Action, Trigger, Stock, Bottom Metal, Stock Pack, Bipod, Bipod Rail, Rings, Base, Scope. Was a fun project. Just did 20 rds, 4 sets of 5 rds at .005 out increments from a stable load outta my other 7 Mag. It's a 26" barrel compared to this 28". Looking promising. ;)

5 shot group.

UU1VtPa.jpg


Six shot group. Actually made 6 for a total of 21 of this depth.

kqryTNU.jpg


KMQLiYS.jpg


Hda3fRp.jpg


It appears to have potential. :rolleyes: These are 168 Bergers. Gonna give the 180's a go but I don't expect it to shine with them. We'll see. Rip a hole and post it up. Looking forward to it.
 
#37
If you develop a load off the lands then decide to extend out to touching or jammed, you should probably drop the powder charge by at least a grain. A 2 grain reduction is typically plenty safe. Then work up. But that's basically what 1J04 is saying - you have to start over from the safe side so you don't eat a face full of action/barrel shrapnel.
 
#38
What info do you have to back up the claim that slightly jamming increases the absolute dog shit blow your fucking head off pressure? It slightly increases pressure depending on your neck tension. If he's at 42 and says 43.5 showed no pressure then a slight jam at 42 wouldn't cause the same amount of pressure as 43.5 jumping. What I hate is folks that have never seen pressure trace or used quickloads or actually done it themselves passing off bad info and acting like it's fucking gospel. He can't jam anyway because he couldn't mag feed so mute point here.
 
#39
jsthntn247 said:
What info do you have to back up the claim that slightly jamming increases the absolute dog shit blow your fucking head off pressure? It slightly increases pressure depending on your neck tension. If he's at 42 and says 43.5 showed no pressure then a slight jam at 42 wouldn't cause the same amount of pressure as 43.5 jumping. What I hate is folks that have never seen pressure trace or used quickloads or actually done it themselves passing off bad info and acting like it's fucking gospel. He can't jam anyway because he couldn't mag feed so mute point here.
Click to expand...
Maybe an experienced reloader could get away with it, MAYBE! Doesn't mean it's a good fucking idea. If you want to start with jump, then jam your shit, be my guest. But to tell anyone else that it's safe is reckless and fucking dumb.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 
#40
jsthntn247 said:
What info do you have to back up the claim that slightly jamming increases the absolute dog shit blow your fucking head off pressure? It slightly increases pressure depending on your neck tension. If he's at 42 and says 43.5 showed no pressure then a slight jam at 42 wouldn't cause the same amount of pressure as 43.5 jumping. What I hate is folks that have never seen pressure trace or used quickloads or actually done it themselves passing off bad info and acting like it's fucking gospel. He can't jam anyway because he couldn't mag feed so mute point here.
Click to expand...

+1
 
#41
#42
ubet said:
Maybe an experienced reloader could get away with it, MAYBE! Doesn't mean it's a good fucking idea. If you want to start with jump, then jam your shit, be my guest. But to tell anyone else that it's safe is reckless and fucking dumb.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


+1
Nothing left to say. Exact reason I avoid this section, usually. But when ya see dangerous advice we're kinda compelled to point it out. No argument to be had. You boys do what ya gotta do. Have a great weekend and stay safe. ;)​​​​​​​
 
#43
photo64884.jpg
Ok, what to do here. I looks like I've limited my self here to a lower load. With the chosen 42.2 gr load the deeper I go in with the bullet the worse the groups get. I don't know if I can go any deeper without getting the powder compressed. Plus I know that Redding says not to use the Competition seater die for compressed loads. I do have a load that shoots really nice at 39.9 grains seated at 2.060" cbto. It was a load from the Berger Manual and it shoots under .5 MOA (actually right around .25MOA) and at 2732 fps But, I don't know if it will be a "tolerant" like an OCW load. It sucks because there is more meat on the bone nigher up. So here is what I shot today
 
Last edited:
#46
spife7980 said:
If that load at 39.9 is more than two bullets you shoot that fucking load right there. Especially at 2700+ With a 140
Click to expand...
This is the truth, it don't get better than that. My go to load in my 260 is about 20 fps slower than that at 2715 but it shoots too good to fool with. Low es and below book max so I'm satisfied.

Chassing 50-100 fps when you have a load that shoots like that is pointless in my opinion.
 
#47
Yes, that load at 39.9 is a three shot group. And it is like that every time. It's funny because it was one of the first loads I shot right out of Bergers manual. I just looked at what guys were shooting here and thought I was way behind. I'll just run that load then. I also ran it over the chrono for the first time yesterday and the extreme spread wasn't too bad at all, it was 19. Don't think that's too bad seeing how I'm using a new RCBS M1000 beam scale (SLOW lol!!) and I didn't do any sorting yet. So far the scale seems to be pretty accurate and repeatable..I have a Lee collet neck die also that I want to try . Thank you all for the help. I've learned alot.

ETA: I just looked and that was the very first load I tested with the 140 Hybrid.
 
Last edited:
#48
39.9 x 1.06= 42.2 So if nodes are 3% like they should be 39.9 is 2 nodes below 42.2. Some guns don't like the upper nodes and you've got to go where best accuracy is. I'd take a slower impact over a faster miss any day.
 
#49
I loaded more of those 39.9 gr and shot them today. It was a full 20 degrees cooler today so I lost some velocity, but It was just as accurate as the last batch I shot at 93 degrees.

I'm pretty happy with the load, yes I would have liked a little more room to play with seating depth at the higher node. This will do until I get a new barrel in the future. I have really learned alot by doing this along with the help from everyone that posted. Thank you for that!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

C
Where do you start your seating depth for OCW load Dev
Replies
5
Views
325
Baron23
Baron23
M
Eagle Ammo - 6.5 Creedmoor 140 gr. Berger Hybrids
Replies
2
Views
881
ranger43
R
barnesuser28
Berger 105 Hybrid Target VS Hornady 105 Aeromatch: PART 1 - Dimensional Consistency
Replies
30
Views
4K
Chrsclnngr
Chrsclnngr
rkw junior
Loaded my first Handloads ever. 6.5cm. Issues/questions
Replies
29
Views
1K
Doom
Doom
B
6.5 PRC Load Advice
Replies
4
Views
813
db2000
db2000
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts