First attempts at long range .22LR.. think i need help..

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PlinkIt

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Minuteman
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Mar 30, 2014
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#1
Ok folks I have been following the site for a little while now and this is my first thread, first off thanks for everything you guys put up here because I have learned tons from other posts.

New to my world of shooting though (oddly enough) is 22LR I grew up on larger calibers.. I grabbed two very nice 10/22 and started playing with them at some distance.. after a little stock work that is.. floated and bedded a target barrel wooden stock.. not even sure if this matters as much with the smaller caliber at these distance to be honest.. now here is my problem.. I have tried standard velocity cci stingers bulk packs in every flavor I can imagine even a couple boxes of match grade ammo.. going over the hundred yard mark my groups have very few "flyers" and my left to right grouping out to two hundred yards I am very happy with.. problem is the the vast difference up and down the paper.. anyone got some info on where I need to place my attention to get the groups tighter from a vertical stand point?.. thanks for any insight
 
#2
Pushing a 10/22 is hard, I know I am doing the same thing. Match ammo, which is hard to find is one of your biggest challenges. To find the ammo and then be able to buy some in quantity is hard to do. Sounds like you are doing well. Over at Rimfire central forums is a great tutorial on bedding the 10/22. Some of what I have learned there has helped. Bedding my 10/22 certainly helped with a variety of ammo. I had one other problem, magazines. I had one magazine which consistently threw the first round a little high every time. At 50 yards it was noticable, high and slightly right by half inch. I don't use that magazine so much when I compete. I numbered and color coded them. Fine for practice.

Look at the Kidd website, the trigger set up is supposed to be very good. Sounds like you have everything covered though. Some of the issue is when high velocity .22 comes back into "low" velocity or goes subsonic, thereby loosing stabilizing of the round. The solution being never to go supersonic in the first place. great for hunting rabbits at 50 yards not so good target shooting at 100+.

Good luck
 
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#3
First off, welcome! Second the modifications you made to your rifle are very important to accuracy in any caliber. So you know the 10/22 can be made to be pretty accurate with a good barrel and a properly bedded action. However there are some design features of the 10/22 that can make getting the last little bit of accuracy out of it hard. They only have one action screw as you know but like many of the old bolt action rifle designs (pre 1950's) they can shoot very well, you just have to have good bedding with out stress. Second the way the barrel fits into the action is super important and with "pre fit" barrels you cant fit the barrel tenon to the action you have what you have. Third is the barrel clamp fit to the action and barrel, it needs to be as square as possible. So it sounds like you are on the right track for accuracy. You may want to look at some of the 10/22 threads on rimfire central for some specific accuracy mods.

As far as your vertical you are seeing at distance it is more than likely coming from the ammo. Less quality ammo will have a larger spread in MV and there by create vertical in your grouping. This is just the same as it is in centerfire. So the first place to start is with better ammo, just remember that more expensive is not always better. Rimfire rifle can be very picky about what ammo they like and even more than that what lot number of a specific ammo. The best thing you can do is batch test ammo in the lot numbers, but remember that rimfire ammo has a lube on it and needs to have the bore seasoned with an ammo change before the groups settle down. Also in the 10/22 platform you can also get vertical from the action having stress built into the bedding causing the barreled action to rock up and down from shot to shot. Or you can have vertical from a lose barrel tenon or a clamp that don't fit right.

I know these answers are kinda vague but there are many things that can create vertical in your group. How far are you shooting?
 
#4
George - I agree this 10/22 is trying my patience lol .. for the trigger I outsourced the trigger work by just getting the timney 2.75 lb trigger which my scale puts over 3 but anyway.. and the ammo I though was my problem and I could only get my hands on a couple boxes of different match grade all of that was eley. none of which showed that much improvement in my mind over some of the standard rounds.. actually my best grouping came from cci bulk packs for the ar platform.. I will get the chrono out and find out about the point of sonic shift to see if I can relate that to my issue. thanks for the direction

jbell - thanks for the welcome! I have been a silent onlooker for a while finally signed up.. and I didn't go for a high end barrel I bought the gun new with the stainless target barrel and for the bedding I went with glass and silicon lubed the receiver and bedded the action from screw to rear the best I could to a point that its almost aggravating to remove from the stock to clean.. I wanted to go with the barrel itself being completely free floated as I have had good luck with my rem 700 in this manner.. and there is no barrel clamp down the stock on the rifle also I opted for no pressure point again thinking my lucky past with complete free float would continue.. and ammo is my concern but still having a hard time finding ammo period let alone having a selection to choose from.. any there anything to the ammo sorting I have been reading about with bulk ammo??? does it help enough to really show??? and I am honestly out of my league trying to figure out if the barrel to action is true on a 10/22.. I have trued my 700s.. guidance there?? and the bedding stress you are referring to was that possibly my error in the method I used for bedding? its fit to a point it almost suctions before falling out.. it doesn't have to be forced at all but it is FITTED!! anyway I can check for this rocking??? and for distance I am going out to 200yrds right now haven't tried any further as of yet. I am looking at roughly 1.5moa side to side in no wind at that range.. but 5moa strings up and down... :confused: I know I got some things right considering what I am accomplishing there.. but how can I narrow out the items I have wrong.. I need a flow chart for idiots or something lol
 
#5
You can sort the ammo by weight, and rim thickness. I use a comparator in 25 cal to sort the rim thickness. As far as checking the bedding, yes see if the barrel wants to move in relationship to the fore arm of the stock when you tighten and loosen the action screw. Do you see more vertical than horizontal / round groups at 50 and 100? What accuracy are you getting at 50 in calm conditions? As with anything accuracy is not linear from short range to long range but is even worse with 22lr, so you accuracy at shorter ranges may not be an indicator of accuracy at distance in MOA.
 
#6
jbell said:
You can sort the ammo by weight, and rim thickness. I use a comparator in 25 cal to sort the rim thickness. As far as checking the bedding, yes see if the barrel wants to move in relationship to the fore arm of the stock when you tighten and loosen the action screw. Do you see more vertical than horizontal / round groups at 50 and 100? What accuracy are you getting at 50 in calm conditions? As with anything accuracy is not linear from short range to long range but is even worse with 22lr, so you accuracy at shorter ranges may not be an indicator of accuracy at distance in MOA.
Click to expand...

I will try sorting by rim thickness but I am not sure the scale I have will give me enough comparison.. triple beam balance is the best scale I have currently..
on the bedding check are we talking putting the stock in a vise and setting up a dial indicator or just visible movement? I cant see anything just from torqueing and removing the action screw.. seems steady..

at 50 yards I am saying that the average is in the 1moa group .. saying average because about 1 or 2 in ten will be randomly off due to either me or the curse that I believe is called "flyers".. now after that point it all goes to hell.. it opens at different rates as distances go up.. still taking out this 1 or 2 in ten that just seem random to me, the left to right stays reasonable but the up and down is RANDOM..

am I just expecting more than I will be capable of with this set up? I hate to be the guy who knows less about 22lr than a center fire cartridge but that's me...

again thanks for the help!
 
#9
I put a Bushnell elite 4-16 by 40 on it and it has a parallax adjustment. I doubt the scope is the problem at this range because it was on a rem 700 sporter barrel .270 before that I was shooting 1moa at 200 yards with.. took the rifle down to do my first hands on truing and build up.. so I feel confident about the scope given its very recent history.. if that could be the issue I have a zeiss conquest I can put on it to try and clear that up.. just didn't think I needed that much scope for daylight shooting a 22lr.. but again in honesty I don't know enough about 22lr to make that decision I guess lol
 
#12
jbell said:
You can sort the ammo by weight, and rim thickness. I use a comparator in 25 cal to sort the rim thickness. As far as checking the bedding, yes see if the barrel wants to move in relationship to the fore arm of the stock when you tighten and loosen the action screw. Do you see more vertical than horizontal / round groups at 50 and 100? What accuracy are you getting at 50 in calm conditions? As with anything accuracy is not linear from short range to long range but is even worse with 22lr, so you accuracy at shorter ranges may not be an indicator of accuracy at distance in MOA.
Click to expand...

JBELL, yep you beat me to it, was what i was going say.?
Derrick, are you shooting off rest, are bipod, need to know (later on that)
also switching head & tail wind past 150yd, will wreck a group for 22lr.
a 10/22 is a great rifle an has showed me some great groups,just not every time.
a 10/22 match chamber,not quite the same as a match bolt chamber, how much of a difference it makes dont know.
oh by the way welcome to the hide, lot of know:ledge here, just got to wade through, the BS somtimes
 
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#13
Derrick said:
Sticky front rest?... Can you elaborate?
Click to expand...

what are you using,what type of front rest, bipod,
iam sure you know about this but here you go
if using a front rest, make sure you take out front swivil stud,
also make sure forend will slide back/forward, with no sticking,(ie smooth)
if using bipod well damm whole nother can of worms, maybe someone can better explain this than i.
it is called loading up bipod, lose bipod ,push bipod, all shooting at that distance with 22lr
must be the same an even then, just out of your control.

HOPPIE EASTER ALL
yo
 
#14
yoteman said:
what are you using,what type of front rest, bipod,
iam sure you know about this but here you go
if using a front rest, make sure you take out front swivil stud,
also make sure forend will slide back/forward, with no sticking,(ie smooth)
if using bipod well damm whole nother can of worms, maybe someone can better explain this than i.
it is called loading up bipod, lose bipod ,push bipod, all shooting at that distance with 22lr
must be the same an even then, just out of your control.

HOPPIE EASTER ALL
yo
Click to expand...

Ok I understand a little better now I think, normally shoot off a wooden table with in this case a 4x4 with small sand bag atop that or a folded set of coveralls is another experiment I tried.. Normally use left hand under rear of stock for shots this close.. I did set it in a cheap shooting rest to try as well.. Haven't actually put it in a lead sled yet but I can try that too.. Never have used a bipod..
 
#15
Derrick said:
Ok I understand a little better now I think, normally shoot off a wooden table with in this case a 4x4 with small sand bag atop that or a folded set of coveralls is another experiment I tried.. Normally use left hand under rear of stock for shots this close.. I did set it in a cheap shooting rest to try as well.. Haven't actually put it in a lead sled yet but I can try that too.. Never have used a bipod..
Click to expand...
.
if shooting for group pass 150yd, are testing ammo, try to take all human error out of the picture,
try a rear bunny bag, solid front rest.
try a bipod sometime. one of the best pice of equipment, a tactical shooter can have.
I use a bipod BR model more now then I ever have in the past.
keep at it, an like I say to all new long dis, 22lr shooters,( welcome to the madness)
yo
 
#16
yoteman said:
.
if shooting for group pass 150yd, are testing ammo, try to take all human error out of the picture,
try a rear bunny bag, solid front rest.
try a bipod sometime. one of the best pice of equipment, a tactical shooter can have.
I use a bipod BR model more now then I ever have in the past.
keep at it, an like I say to all new long dis, 22lr shooters,( welcome to the madness)
yo
Click to expand...

the more I read the more I am thinking that the ammo is my issue I think I will stat a separate thread asking how much improvement guys see in sorting ammo so I can get an idea what to expect till the great 22 ammo crisis is over..

but I am certainly into improving my principles of shooting..so by solid front rest we talking shoot off a 6x6 with just some cloth to protect finish and help avoid the "sticky" mentioned before?
 
#17
I got into shooting 22s as practice for 308 & 338LM & shoot Savages. I enjoy it so much I've now starting teaching young people to shoot. Anyway I bought a rim thickness gauge & found no differences in accuracy.If the bolt closes stiff, I'll reject that round but other than that I use it. Try Norma Tac22 as it's German made by RWS. Also Blazers have done well. I might take a rainy day & tear down the rifle making sure everything is torqued correctly, freefloated with nothing touching even when on the bags, put a good glass on top, torque & lap the rings. Harbor Freight sell a digital scale that does grains also for about $10. Normally I can get 5 into 1/2" or better @ 75 yards using mostly thunderbolts because I found a case cheap. It's a blast & great practice for centerfire. Who knows one day I may shoot almodt as well as Jbell!:p
 
#18
flylo said:
I got into shooting 22s as practice for 308 & 338LM & shoot Savages. I enjoy it so much I've now starting teaching young people to shoot. Anyway I bought a rim thickness gauge & found no differences in accuracy.If the bolt closes stiff, I'll reject that round but other than that I use it. Try Norma Tac22 as it's German made by RWS. Also Blazers have done well. I might take a rainy day & tear down the rifle making sure everything is torqued correctly, freefloated with nothing touching even when on the bags, put a good glass on top, torque & lap the rings. Harbor Freight sell a digital scale that does grains also for about $10. Normally I can get 5 into 1/2" or better @ 75 yards using mostly thunderbolts because I found a case cheap. It's a blast & great practice for centerfire. Who knows one day I may shoot almodt as well as Jbell!:p
Click to expand...

Thank you, however I am by no means any kind of benchmark... I just talk a good game ;)
 
#19
ruger 10-22`s are great little guns...I own one and have a great time with it....However....keep trying to make one accurate..... and pretty soon you got a 1000$ gun that shoots pretty good..and 50 man hrs.... I would recommend buying a used higher quality gun (750$?)...and have a real accurate 22.
OMHO...let the flames begin...........
 
#20
Bill Larson said:
ruger 10-22`s are great little guns...I own one and have a great time with it....However....keep trying to make one accurate..... and pretty soon you got a 1000$ gun that shoots pretty good..and 50 man hrs.... I would recommend buying a used higher quality gun (750$?)...and have a real accurate 22.
OMHO...let the flames begin...........
Click to expand...

Mr. Bill
thanks for saying what I was thinking.
I will agree, but I have seen 1 great shooting 10/22, (1) well mostly all kidd, I think the housing was ruger, all the rest was Kidd,
no telling how much $ was in that rig.
Derrick more gents on the HIDE better at giving info than I
but I do most of my 22lr shooting at 211yrd. have learned a few things the hard way.
 
#21
yea.. I think I will take that and run with it.. I am not looking to turn it into a competition gun just wanted a good shooter to test myself in the wind with some distance..

I think I may have seen too many people talk up how well they were shooting with somewhat normal 10/22s though.. I think I will take the patterns I am getting now as a good base and just enjoy the gun.. I think when the 22 ammo comes back I can get a little better with the lot testing you guys referred to earlier.. I really think ammo is my weak point only getting my hands on one really good set of ammo that the rifle most likely didn't like.. none the less I got a lot of info out of this and knowledge is a GREAT thing!

I really appreciate the knowledge guys!!!
 
#22
Bill Larson said:
ruger 10-22`s are great little guns...I own one and have a great time with it....However....keep trying to make one accurate..... and pretty soon you got a 1000$ gun that shoots pretty good..and 50 man hrs.... I would recommend buying a used higher quality gun (750$?)...and have a real accurate 22.
OMHO...let the flames begin...........
Click to expand...

No flames here... fairly sound advise for someone looking for an accurate .22LR.

The only time I would disagree is when sick people (like me) want a project for fun!

Just to add a little to the conversation - my 10/22 shot extremely well to the point where clicking off clay birds at 200 was fairly easy and at 50 yards it was hole after hole. What I found (with a KIDD barrel) was that sorting by rim-thickness was the key compared to any other type of sorting including weight or concentricity.
 
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#23
RicosRevenge said:
No flames here... fairly sound advise for someone looking for an accurate .22LR.

The only time I would disagree is when sick people (like me) want a project for fun!

Just to add a little to the conversation - my 10/22 shot extremely well to the point where clicking off clay birds at 200 was fairly easy and at 50 yards it was hole after hole. What I found (with a KIDD barrel) was that sorting by rim-thickness was the key compared to any other type of sorting including weight or concentricity.
Click to expand...

i knew if we jerked the chain, hard enuff, the mad dog would bark,LOL
rico that what i was saying about my buds 10/22 Kidd, damm thing shot well
 
#26
RicosRevenge said:
It can be done... but it does take some doing.

yote... I still lurk a little bit but rarely post. Been busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
Click to expand...

I do agree, I can be done, how much $ do you want to spend,
Are should I say willing to spend
for out of the box fun, an will shoot well, (with a trigger job) hard to beat a CZ455.
I do have them all,Annie MPR, CZ455 Lila, savage FSSR, ruger 10/22
an a few other oldie's (most are my son's rifle) but have shot them all.

i hear ya rico my work has been balls to walls for some time now.
have to take a day off just to hunt ol wiley
 
#27
RicosRevenge said:
It can be done... but it does take some doing.

yote... I still lurk a little bit but rarely post. Been busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
Click to expand...

I do agree, I can be done, how much $ do you want to spend,
Are should I say willing to spend
for out of the box fun, an will shoot well, (with a trigger job) hard to beat a CZ455.
I do have them all,Annie MPR, CZ455 Lila, savage FSSR, ruger 10/22
an a few other oldie's (most are my son's rifle) but have shot them all.

i hear ya rico my work has been balls to walls for some time now.
have to take a day off just to hunt ol wiley
 
#28
yoteman said:
I do agree, I can be done, how much $ do you want to spend,
Are should I say willing to spend
for out of the box fun, an will shoot well, (with a trigger job) hard to beat a CZ455.
I do have them all,Annie MPR, CZ455 Lila, savage FSSR, ruger 10/22
an a few other oldie's (most are my son's rifle) but have shot them all.

i hear ya rico my work has been balls to walls for some time now.
have to take a day off just to hunt ol wiley
Click to expand...

I think one of those are going to be the next item I buy to help my 10/22 problem ;)

never had any dealing with the Anschutz though?... is asking about them going to end up being a whole different subject?
 
#29
well I took the advice and decided to get rid of one of the 10/22s to free up some money for a bolt gun.. so I sold one while I was at the gun shop getting a new bipod.. took the second 10/22 out that I had only shot breaking it in a little and was flat out shocked!! the second one bone stock with better ammo shot ten times better than the one I had worked on at a hundred yards.. so I have just learned ammo is everything!!!!!



the first shot is right after running a snake through the bore and then the group I measure at a .63 on centers (or a .83 on outside edges) at one hundred yards with a bone stock 10/22 shooting off sand bags.. I almost birthed a cow right there considering how hard I had been working with the first 10/22
 
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#30
Derrick said:
well I took the advice and decided to get rid of one of the 10/22s to free up some money for a bolt gun.. so I sold one while I was at the gun shop getting a new bipod.. took the second 10/22 out that I had only shot breaking it in a little and was flat out shocked!! the second one bone stock with better ammo shot ten times better than the one I had worked on at a hundred yards.. so I have just learned ammo is everything!!!!!



the first shot is right after running a snake through the bore and then the group I measure at a .63 on centers (or a .83 on outside edges) at one hundred yards with a bone stock 10/22 shooting off sand bags.. I almost birthed a cow right there considering how hard I had been working with the first 10/22
Click to expand...

The key to rimfire happiness is to try as many different types of ammo as you can find in any new gun. The impossible part these days is then finding an ample supply of the best shooting ammo for that gun.
 
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