First few AR builds

[jd22981]

Hello all,
I recently moved from a state in the north east that is one of the states that most firearm owners say they will never travel to and have now found myself in one of the freest states in the US. I grew up with firearms as a kid, but hadn't been around them because of the state I was living in. Now I'm in SC and free to start putting together a few AR builds that I had been saving up for and planning on for a few years while living in NJ. I have a few questions though.

I'm sure that JP has continuously improved upon their AR15 uppers over the years and hasn't been producing uppers like the JP15 and CTR02 exactly the same for the last decade. Uppers such as the CTR02 are listed on the JP sight and elsewhere as being "thermofit" but the listing from their JP15 upper doesn't mention it anywhere. The JP catalog also doesn't mention the JP15 being thermofit. On one single page for an already completed however, it does say the barrel was thermofield to the model listed on the JP website. I sent JP an email asking and I'm sure they will respond quickly, but I'm wondering if anyone has experience with the current version of the JP15 upper, if it's thermofit, and how it compares to say the BCM thermofit uppers that are half the price and more frequently in stock (right now for $90 blemished)?

I'm also torn between a 6mm arc build, a 6.5 grendel build, and a 223 wylde build. Two things are bringing me to lean toward 223 wylde over the other two. They are ammo availability during uncertain times as well as what I've read regarding reliability. I don't know how true the reliability statements I've read are. I guess in terms of magazines for 6mm arc and 6.5 grendel. I'm also thinking I should just go with 2 builds, a 6.5CM and a 223 wylde rather than trying to do a 6.5 or 6 on the ar15 platform.
Is there truth to the reliability issues I've read about related to the 6mm arc and 6.5 Grendel?

 

[6.5SH]

AFAIK all JP uppers are intended to be thermofit, your X factor will be the barrel extension from whatever barrel vendor you use. It isn't a 100% deal unless using one of JP's barrels as well.

BCM and Vltor are also undersized and often but not always require thermofitting.

As to cartridge choice, I'm a huge fan of the Grendel, but yes there are quirks with it and yes ammo and components for it are scarce at this time.
The reliability issues are mostly magazines. ALL of the common makers for them have had good lots and bad.
The other less directly discussed issue is how few barrel makers actually use the true SAAMI spec reamer including the compound throat.
There are many bastardized chambers out there.

For a first AR platform rifle you would be wise to go with the .223 wylde first. You can always build another upper later or even transition it to a complete rifle.

 

[6.5SH]

I should also state, all three of the uppers you listed are quality items, Seekins is another.

The barrel you choose is going to have the greatest influence on any potential accuracy. I strongly suggest taking a look at what Compass Lake Engineering has available, they are a known quality entity and usually have stuff in stock.

The trigger will be another. These are highly personal as choice and feature wants. I like the LaRue MBT 2S, for me they have been highly reliable and consistent. I prefer a 2 stage trigger, others do not.

 

[jd22981]

AFAIK all JP uppers are intended to be thermofit, your X factor will be the barrel extension from whatever barrel vendor you use. It isn't a 100% deal unless using one of JP's barrels as well.

BCM and Vltor are also undersized and often but not always require thermofitting.

As to cartridge choice, I'm a huge fan of the Grendel, but yes there are quirks with it and yes ammo and components for it are scarce at this time.
The reliability issues are mostly magazines. ALL of the common makers for them have had good lots and bad.
The other less directly discussed issue is how few barrel makers actually use the true SAAMI spec reamer including the compound throat.
There are many bastardized chambers out there.

For a first AR platform rifle you would be wise to go with the .223 wylde first. You can always build another upper later or even transition it to a complete rifle.

Thanks for the response. For this build I definitely want reliability over power. Are you saying the the magazine reliability issue is something that is typically discovered shortly after a magazine is purchased? In other words, if a new magazine for 6mm ARC or 6.5 grendel is purchased and works, it is typically good to go, but other magazines are no good from the start? Or is the reliability issue that they last a few hundred rounds and break or something out of nowhere?

 

[6.5SH]

Thanks for the response. For this build I definitely want reliability over power. Are you saying the the magazine reliability issue is something that is typically discovered shortly after a magazine is purchased? In other words, if a new magazine for 6mm ARC or 6.5 grendel is purchased and works, it is typically good to go, but other magazines are no good from the start? Or is the reliability issue that they last a few hundred rounds and break or something out of nowhere?

Bad ones will typically have feeding issues right out of the gate. I've seen everything from incorrectly formed feed lips, catch slots cut too high or too low, follower angle/height issues, spring issues etc.

E-Lander is considered the best and was the "official" magazine from Alexander Arms. I've seen perfect examples and ones that have had every issue I described above. Excluding the catch slot issues they can usually be made to work, but it isn't something the end user should HAVE to do right from the start.

 

[jd22981]

I should also state, all three of the uppers you listed are quality items, Seekins is another.

The barrel you choose is going to have the greatest influence on any potential accuracy. I strongly suggest taking a look at what Compass Lake Engineering has available, they are a known quality entity and usually have stuff in stock.

The trigger will be another. These are highly personal as choice and feature wants. I like the LaRue MBT 2S, for me they have been highly reliable and consistent. I prefer a 2 stage trigger, others do not.

I had been saving up for three builds for a while prior to the move out of NJ. I was planning a 300blackout, a 223 and a 6.5CM. I knew I was going to be moving after college and set some money to the side from paychecks each week for about two years.

After moving a few months back and finally being able to exercise my 2nd amendment rights again I started piecing all three tougher at the same time. My thinking on working on all three builds rather than one at a time was the result of concern over the current administration. I thought it might be best to purchase and complete the three lowers just in case the current admin attempted to push through any bans. After the lowers I've been piecing everything together when things are on sales or hard to find items are in stock. I have managed to get most things on sale or blemished. I did get a few giessele triggers blemished.

I partially wish I had just done one at a time and finished before going to the next, but that was my reasoning for doing it that way. I will stick with my initial plan of going with a 223 wylde rather than the 6mm or 6.5, but I'm sure I will eventually get a separate 6.5grendel or 6mm ARC upper to swap out with the 223 at some point. I think your post definitely pointed me in the direction of the 223 first though. I'd rather have a reliable build with ammo than an unreliable build without ammo initially.

I checked out Compass Lake just now and it doesn't look like they have much in the way of current stock. It's going to be a few weeks until I have enough for a barrel though, so I'll check them out again in a few weeks. I'm still going back and forth now on if I should go with a chrome lined CHF or 516R barrel. I question how much of a difference there really is in accuracy between say a noveske CHF chrome 556 barrel and a 516R at a hunting distance of 200 yards max, especially if I'm doing everything else to be as precise as possible. Alternatively, I'm thinking a proof stainless, Rainaire Ultramatch, JP 18" 223 barrel, bartlet and a few others I have read are good if I go the route of accuracy over chrome CHF.

Thanks again

 

[alamo5000]

I'm sure that JP has continuously improved upon their AR15 uppers over the years and hasn't been producing uppers like the JP15 and CTR02 exactly the same for the last decade. Uppers such as the CTR02 are listed on the JP sight and elsewhere as being "thermofit" but the listing from their JP15 upper doesn't mention it anywhere. The JP catalog also doesn't mention the JP15 being thermofit. On one single page for an already completed however, it does say the barrel was thermofield to the model listed on the JP website. I sent JP an email asking and I'm sure they will respond quickly, but I'm wondering if anyone has experience with the current version of the JP15 upper, if it's thermofit, and how it compares to say the BCM thermofit uppers that are half the price and more frequently in stock (right now for $90 blemished)?

Unless you just have a special desire for those features (thermofit?) this kind of stuff is totally unnecessary. I get it that people should just buy whatever brands and styles they like. Once the manufacturer meets the basic threshold, the rest become nice to haves, not need to haves. In other words don't get too wrapped around the axle about that stuff unless its something specifically that you want to own.

I'm also torn between a 6mm arc build, a 6.5 grendel build, and a 223 wylde build. Two things are bringing me to lean toward 223 wylde over the other two. They are ammo availability during uncertain times as well as what I've read regarding reliability. I don't know how true the reliability statements I've read are. I guess in terms of magazines for 6mm arc and 6.5 grendel. I'm also thinking I should just go with 2 builds, a 6.5CM and a 223 wylde rather than trying to do a 6.5 or 6 on the ar15 platform.
Is there truth to the reliability issues I've read about related to the 6mm arc and 6.5 Grendel?

My opinion is that the desired purpose needs to drive the decision making process. If your answer to how many ARs you want ultimately comes out as 'as many as I can afford' it really won't matter which one you do first.

Definitely though a good 5.56 rifle is in my opinion the starting point. I would say 'everyone should...' but again if your goal is to shoot 1,000+ yards with a semi auto a 5.56 might not be the ticket. Barring some special need definitely a 5.56/.223 should be where you start.

I recently built a 6 ARC and I have never had a single failure. Personally I did have the choice and I chose 6 ARC over all others. I think it's the best all around option for what I do. I have had no reliability issues whatsoever. This though does depend on a bunch of factors. There were questions in my mind before I started (because I saw the same internet posts you saw). Because of that instead of getting a +1 or +2 gas system I went without any additional length. So far it's been a good choice but YMMV. I don't think inherently there are any reliability issues though. Where you might run into problems is with cheapo mags and possibly under power ammo (especially if paired with the ++ gas systems).

For me, because I was unsure at first, I gave myself maximum opportunity for adjustment. You can get an adjustable gas block or play with buffer weight or even buffer springs to make it all reliable. Like I said though the mags to some folks are the weak link. For me though I haven't had a single malfunction. Maybe I am just lucky but I like to think that I stacked the deck in my favor when I spec'ed out what I wanted in the way of a barrel and other components.

Personally I think the ARC and Grendel are both hand loader cartridges. You obviously can shoot factory ammo but in my opinion to get the best desired results reloading is the way to go.

Again though if you are going to try and shoot groups at 100 yards and little more than that 5.56/223 is the way to go. If you have more in mind, including more distance or possibly hunting you need to define that. It really just depends. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either but again the purpose should help you decide. For me though it is 6 ARC all day long.

 

[jd22981]

Unless you just have a special desire for those features (thermofit?) this kind of stuff is totally unnecessary. I get it that people should just buy whatever brands and styles they like. Once the manufacturer meets the basic threshold, the rest become nice to haves, not need to haves. In other words don't get too wrapped around the axle about that stuff unless its something specifically that you want to own.



My opinion is that the desired purpose needs to drive the decision making process. If your answer to how many ARs you want ultimately comes out as 'as many as I can afford' it really won't matter which one you do first.

Definitely though a good 5.56 rifle is in my opinion the starting point. I would say 'everyone should...' but again if your goal is to shoot 1,000+ yards with a semi auto a 5.56 might not be the ticket. Barring some special need definitely a 5.56/.223 should be where you start.

I recently built a 6 ARC and I have never had a single failure. Personally I did have the choice and I chose 6 ARC over all others. I think it's the best all around option for what I do. I have had no reliability issues whatsoever. This though does depend on a bunch of factors. There were questions in my mind before I started (because I saw the same internet posts you saw). Because of that instead of getting a +1 or +2 gas system I went without any additional length. So far it's been a good choice but YMMV. I don't think inherently there are any reliability issues though. Where you might run into problems is with cheapo mags and possibly under power ammo (especially if paired with the ++ gas systems).

For me, because I was unsure at first, I gave myself maximum opportunity for adjustment. You can get an adjustable gas block or play with buffer weight or even buffer springs to make it all reliable. Like I said though the mags to some folks are the weak link. For me though I haven't had a single malfunction. Maybe I am just lucky but I like to think that I stacked the deck in my favor when I spec'ed out what I wanted in the way of a barrel and other components.

Personally I think the ARC and Grendel are both hand loader cartridges. You obviously can shoot factory ammo but in my opinion to get the best desired results reloading is the way to go.

Again though if you are going to try and shoot groups at 100 yards and little more than that 5.56/223 is the way to go. If you have more in mind, including more distance or possibly hunting you need to define that. It really just depends. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either but again the purpose should help you decide. For me though it is 6 ARC all day long.

That all makes sense. Over time I went back and fourth on what I should get because I had different things in mind as far as intended uses. I started out thinking 300 blackout because I wanted a home defense build, and was going to go all out with the suppressor and all.

I later thought more about doing a build for hunting, and started leaning toward a DPMS 6.5 Creedmoor build, which wouldn't be ideal for home defense. When the pandemic hit I kept an eye on ammo prices and availability. 223/556 seemed like it was more available than 300 blackout or 6.5 Creedmoor, so I started to lean toward thinking of a 223 wylde build, because after all, what good would the CM or Blackout be without ammo.

Now, with Biden in office, I said I should get all three lowers and make them the best at what they do, because who knows what tomorrow may bring in terms of a ban and what I might want or need, yet not have an opportunity to make the upgrades down the line. I was probably not thinking rationally on that and got caught up in potential ban fears.
I think what 6.5SH said in a post above regarding the issue with dependability made sense in terms of it being purely a magazine issue, and no doubt is related to a cheap vs quality magazine and also comes down to magazines that are to spec vs out of tolerance and not getting caught by quality control.
I think I'm going to stick with the plan of doing all three builds. Each build having it's own separate purpose. I've already almost finished the 300 blackout. The 6.5 creedmore is going to go on the back burner because I wouldn't be able to complete it in time for this hunting season anyway and will just go out with my bow, but I do have the receiver set and trigger for it and can pick up where I left off later. So, I think it leaves me to doing this other build that I will stick with my original plan on. Primarily because of ammo availability of 556 and 223.

I've got to ask though. Why did you pick the 6mm ARC over something like a 6 Creedmore? Or why do people pick a 6.5 grendel over a 6.5CM? I would think that the same barrel length can be picked for both builds, and that the receiver might only be like an inch longer. If going for the distance, what does the smaller frame offer over the large frame equivalent? Cost doesn't seem to be that much different from what I'm seeing. Is the weight difference material to the decision?

I intend to start handloading, and have been waiting for the Forster Co-Ax press to come back in stock. I've been learning a little more about die sets, and in time I will definitely get into it. I already told myself that whatever factory ammo I do buy to make sure it's decent reloadable brass.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I've got to ask though. Why did you pick the 6mm ARC over something like a 6 Creedmore? Or why do people pick a 6.5 grendel over a 6.5CM? I would think that the same barrel length can be picked for both builds, and that the receiver might only be like an inch longer. If going for the distance, what does the smaller frame offer over the large frame equivalent? Cost doesn't seem to be that much different from what I'm seeing. Is the weight difference material to the decision?

The 6/6.5 CM has all the ballistics advantage but the rest of the list falls on the cons side. Large frames are heavier, bigger, non standardized resulting in 10x the potential for headaches and gremlins, the added reciprocating mass makes them harder to shoot, usually more expensive to feed and the barrel life is usually half or less of the little brother small frame cartridges.
On top of that, if most of us are honest with ourselves we probably do 99% of our shooting inside 700 yards and the extra horsepower of a large frame cartridge is a waste most of the time.

 

[Mwalex]

You are starting with good quality parts and that is great. I would also suggest Cross Machine and Tool and SLR Rifleworks for uppers and lowers. I have used a lot of CMT parts and they are excellent.

I would agree that a .223 Wylde is the best first build to cut your teeth on. Work up the rifle, troubleshoot any mechanical issues and use that knowledge for the next build. Make sure to buy good quality tools for the work because that will make your life easier.

This board is an excellent source for information and never hesitate to ask questions.

 

[alamo5000]

I've got to ask though. Why did you pick the 6mm ARC over something like a 6 Creedmore? Or why do people pick a 6.5 grendel over a 6.5CM? I would think that the same barrel length can be picked for both builds, and that the receiver might only be like an inch longer. If going for the distance, what does the smaller frame offer over the large frame equivalent? Cost doesn't seem to be that much different from what I'm seeing. Is the weight difference material to the decision?

I intend to start handloading, and have been waiting for the Forster Co-Ax press to come back in stock. I've been learning a little more about die sets, and in time I will definitely get into it. I already told myself that whatever factory ammo I do buy to make sure it's decent reloadable brass.

Tony is right on the money. First off for me was cost to shoot. Generally speaking the bigger you go the more per shot it will cost. Right now things are skewed price wise because of the shortage but long term you definitely need to consider the literal bang for your buck over the long term.

I am not a big hunter myself (done it but just not super into it yet). But where I live we don't have big animals. In other words shooting a 300 RUM at 150 yards at a East Texas white tail deer is kind of overkill. If I ever do take up hunting I have plenty of stuff that can take the biggest stuff in my neighborhood. That reality there that I don't hunt much says I will be target shooting as the primary use and then it goes back to cost (not to build but to feed).

Also you have things such as continuity of supplies. When I buy another lot of 50K primers or whatever technically I don't need to get different supplies. Plus I happened to have several kegs of CFE223 prior to ever building the ARC. Interchangeability is nice. Likewise if something breaks I can interchange parts with other ARs that I own. The only exception to that is the bolt. I bought a few extras of those just in case. My only real mission now is to stockpile projectiles (once I get to the point of being satisfied with what shoots well in my gun) and of course getting a nice stockpile of brass.

All this management of supplies is actually to me a really REALLY big deal. Look around at how many people literally cannot go shooting these days because of supply interruptions or prices. I've mapped out my management of such issues from a long time ago. The more calibers you shoot the less deep the stockpiles will be (unless you have a ton of extra space and cash laying around). It also gets cumbersome buying several different flavors of bullets and other components for each caliber. If you are not careful you wind up with like 50 different types of bullets or other components that you are trying to keep track of.

After that, yes the large frame ARs are much heavier and do not have nearly as standardized parts to the actual rifles. In general if possible stay away from proprietary parts. If the company that makes those goes out of business you will be SOL.

Then to me where the tire meets the road is that 6 ARC is a combination of decades of stuff that works all rolled into one. 6mm bullets are plentiful and proven to work. They have been shooting those for 50++ years and the supply of them is not going anywhere. In a pinch you can get 100 grain bullets (or lighter) so at least you have something vs nothing at all. It might not be ideal but it's better than not shooting at all for two years or paying quadruple for things.

Also I think where 6 ARC has a slight edge over the Grendel in regards to bullet selection and so forth. It's not that the Grendel is a bad choice by any stretch. That said there are a ton of people emotionally invested in the Grendel. They will quite literally attack the ARC because it steps on 'their turf' so to speak. Honestly you really do have to discount a whole lot of people that are casting shade on the ARC. Just listen to them and 95% of the time it will be nothing but bullshit.

Again, no one is saying the Grendel is bad by any means. In some applications the Grendel is actually a better choice but for me and my use (IE longer range shooting) the ARC wins. My goal was to have a battle (ish) type of rifle capable of beyond 1,000 yards. I definitely achieved that goal for sure.

Would the Grendel work as well? Absolutely. But it comes down to more than just drop charts for cherry picked loads.

 

[alamo5000]

You are starting with good quality parts and that is great. I would also suggest Cross Machine and Tool and SLR Rifleworks for uppers and lowers. I have used a lot of CMT parts and they are excellent.

Agreed. 100%.

All of my uppers and lowers use CMT receivers. All but one has a SLR handguard. The exception has a CMT handguard.

All of mine also use SLR gas blocks.

 

[hlee]

The Grendel is great if you find mags that work. 10 round mags have been great in mine from Alexander Arms, ASC, and Elander. ASC makes the only mags greater than 10 rounds that have proven to be reliable in my experience. If you go Grendel or ARC, buy a few mags from every manufacturer and test them. Buy the mags that work in your rifles, not the mags that others say work in theirs.

 

[hlee]

Yeah. Why shoot a 6.5 creedmoor when you could shoot a 300 weatherby mag, or a 338 Lapua.

 

[jd22981]

You are starting with good quality parts and that is great. I would also suggest Cross Machine and Tool and SLR Rifleworks for uppers and lowers. I have used a lot of CMT parts and they are excellent.

I would agree that a .223 Wylde is the best first build to cut your teeth on. Work up the rifle, troubleshoot any mechanical issues and use that knowledge for the next build. Make sure to buy good quality tools for the work because that will make your life easier.

This board is an excellent source for information and never hesitate to ask questions.

I will check out CMT and SLR. I ended up ordering the JP15 upper last night and got an email response from JP this morning. Evidently the JP15 is not a thermofit (undersized barrel extension) upper.

It's confusing because the JP website product listing for the JP15 upper receiver doesn't mention Thermofit, and it shouldn't, but the product listing for the JP15 rifle (if the completed rifle is looked up) says that the barrel has been thermofitted. The JP catalog also doesn't mention certain receivers as being thermofitted that actually are. The response I got from JP is that the JP15 upper does not have an undersized barrel extension, like that of some of their billet uppers, but the completed JP15 riffle that they sell has been thermofitted through a process that is different than the thermofitting process of their other uppers. The thermofitting process for the JP15 doesn't involve an undersized barrel extension diameter and that the way they thermofit barrels into the JP15 isn't something that a person can do at home. It sounds as if they are using oversized barrel extensions for their thermofitted JP15 complete rifles and/or some type of retaining compound.

I'm wondering if the thermofitting thing is more of a marketing thing and if it's as important as what the marketing makes it out to be. Alternatively I can just use some stainless shim stock and loctite to do it myself.

I'll definitely be back to this website a lot going forward

 

[jd22981]

The 6/6.5 CM has all the ballistics advantage but the rest of the list falls on the cons side. Large frames are heavier, bigger, non standardized resulting in 10x the potential for headaches and gremlins, the added reciprocating mass makes them harder to shoot, usually more expensive to feed and the barrel life is usually half or less of the little brother small frame cartridges.
On top of that, if most of us are honest with ourselves we probably do 99% of our shooting inside 700 yards and the extra horsepower of a large frame cartridge is a waste most of the time.

That all makes sense. I still want the 6.5CM, but now after reading everyone's replies I want one of every caliber. I realize that isn't financially possible though

 

[jd22981]

Tony is right on the money. First off for me was cost to shoot. Generally speaking the bigger you go the more per shot it will cost. Right now things are skewed price wise because of the shortage but long term you definitely need to consider the literal bang for your buck over the long term.

I am not a big hunter myself (done it but just not super into it yet). But where I live we don't have big animals. In other words shooting a 300 RUM at 150 yards at a East Texas white tail deer is kind of overkill. If I ever do take up hunting I have plenty of stuff that can take the biggest stuff in my neighborhood. That reality there that I don't hunt much says I will be target shooting as the primary use and then it goes back to cost (not to build but to feed).

Also you have things such as continuity of supplies. When I buy another lot of 50K primers or whatever technically I don't need to get different supplies. Plus I happened to have several kegs of CFE223 prior to ever building the ARC. Interchangeability is nice. Likewise if something breaks I can interchange parts with other ARs that I own. The only exception to that is the bolt. I bought a few extras of those just in case. My only real mission now is to stockpile projectiles (once I get to the point of being satisfied with what shoots well in my gun) and of course getting a nice stockpile of brass.

All this management of supplies is actually to me a really REALLY big deal. Look around at how many people literally cannot go shooting these days because of supply interruptions or prices. I've mapped out my management of such issues from a long time ago. The more calibers you shoot the less deep the stockpiles will be (unless you have a ton of extra space and cash laying around). It also gets cumbersome buying several different flavors of bullets and other components for each caliber. If you are not careful you wind up with like 50 different types of bullets or other components that you are trying to keep track of.

After that, yes the large frame ARs are much heavier and do not have nearly as standardized parts to the actual rifles. In general if possible stay away from proprietary parts. If the company that makes those goes out of business you will be SOL.

Then to me where the tire meets the road is that 6 ARC is a combination of decades of stuff that works all rolled into one. 6mm bullets are plentiful and proven to work. They have been shooting those for 50++ years and the supply of them is not going anywhere. In a pinch you can get 100 grain bullets (or lighter) so at least you have something vs nothing at all. It might not be ideal but it's better than not shooting at all for two years or paying quadruple for things.

Also I think where 6 ARC has a slight edge over the Grendel in regards to bullet selection and so forth. It's not that the Grendel is a bad choice by any stretch. That said there are a ton of people emotionally invested in the Grendel. They will quite literally attack the ARC because it steps on 'their turf' so to speak. Honestly you really do have to discount a whole lot of people that are casting shade on the ARC. Just listen to them and 95% of the time it will be nothing but bullshit.

Again, no one is saying the Grendel is bad by any means. In some applications the Grendel is actually a better choice but for me and my use (IE longer range shooting) the ARC wins. My goal was to have a battle (ish) type of rifle capable of beyond 1,000 yards. I definitely achieved that goal for sure.

Would the Grendel work as well? Absolutely. But it comes down to more than just drop charts for cherry picked loads.

After reading this and watching the video I want the 6mm ARC. I'm going to finish the .223 upper and then start a 6mm ARC upper.

I know what you are saying about the compatibility of being able to keep parts interchangeable. I guess I was kind of thinking that having a diverse selection of calibers would make it easier to be able to shoot because it would make it more likely for me to be able to have a rifle capable of shooting whatever happens to be in stock if all but one caliber is sold out during these times. I get what you are saying though. Regardless, you definitely just convinced me to get a 6mm ARC upper.

Out of curiosity, are you or anyone else familiar with this scope:

Crimson Trace Hardline Pro Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 3-12x 42mm Side Focus Zero Reset Exposed Turrets MR1-MOA Reticle Matte​

sold on Midway? I ordered one refurbished for half of what Midway is selling it for currently. Don't know really anything about scopes or if this would be good at a distance like what you say you shoot your 6mm ARC at (1000+ yards)?

You mention CFE223. I don't really know anything about reloading yet, but intend to start in the near future. I ordered a few books but haven't been able to read anything yet. I'm going to have a lot of questions about reloading in the near future. I will ask some now though.

Are there powders, such as the CFE223 that you mentioned that are optimal for several calibers? I mean would something like the CFE223 be good for 223 Wylde, 6mm ARC, 300 Blackout and 6.5CM? and a different type of powder for handguns (9mm and 40)? Or would I have to get different types for all four rifle calibers I mentioned above if I did have all four calibers?

Also, I know that ammo can last a long time, but typically bullets are sealed air tight into brass. How long are bottles of powder typically good for?
Thanks again for the response

 

[alamo5000]

I'm wondering if the thermofitting thing is more of a marketing thing and if it's as important as what the marketing makes it out to be.

You are definitely chasing your tail going for some whizbang marketing hype. If you start with quality components you don't need to do any of that stuff. You are quite literally chasing a ghost for something that literally does not matter. My advice is to put your efforts elsewhere.

You are doing the right thing by asking questions and you are getting solid advice but some of it might not be what you want to hear. IE stop thinking about 'thermo fit' or whatever that is supposed to be. There are way more important things to worry about. For every perceived gain from spending hard earned cash on a whizbang wigit such as 'thermo fit' the day you start pulling the trigger you will realize that none of that matters. AT ALL. Buy good components (minus the fluff). I have an AR that can shoot about a half minute if I do my part (with a 4x optic even), maybe better if I swap optics. But the minute I load up some cheapish ammo it becomes a 2 MOA gun, if that.

The same thing will be true with your JP or any other rifle, except it might not be a half minute shooter.

Whatever fancy high dollar 'technology' you put into the rifle is useless if you don't use good ammo. You can either buy it or learn to make it. Up to you...but trying to get around that through other means is wasting both time and money and a whole lot of effort.

I am not trying to be rude, but rather save you from hassles.

I will read your other post and try to respond as well.

 

[jd22981]

Yeah. Why shoot a 6.5 creedmoor when you could shoot a 300 weatherby mag, or a 338 Lapua

Are there semiauto offerings in either?

 

[alamo5000]

After reading this and watching the video I want the 6mm ARC. I'm going to finish the .223 upper and then start a 6mm ARC upper.

That's good, but do not think that a Grendel is 'bad'. Don't even go down that road. Think of it as buying a new pair of shoes. Which ones fit your needs better? Do you need tennis shoes or dress shoes? Which ones are more comfortable?

The Grendel is great but it's not the best at what I want to do (in my opinion).

I know what you are saying about the compatibility of being able to keep parts interchangeable. I guess I was kind of thinking that having a diverse selection of calibers would make it easier to be able to shoot because it would make it more likely for me to be able to have a rifle capable of shooting whatever happens to be in stock if all but one caliber is sold out during these times. I get what you are saying though.

If I were you I would not think that way. If you build one rifle (.223) and get 25,000 rounds of ammo or whatever your number happens to be depending on what and how much you shoot, that's when you can ride out insane supply rides. Deep is a lot better than wide.

Out of curiosity, are you or anyone else familiar with this scope:

Crimson Trace Hardline Pro Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 3-12x 42mm Side Focus Zero Reset Exposed Turrets MR1-MOA Reticle Matte​

sold on Midway? I ordered one refurbished for half of what Midway is selling it for currently. Don't know really anything about scopes or if this would be good at a distance like what you say you shoot your 6mm ARC at (1000+ yards)?

I am not familiar at all with that scope but I looked it up. There are substantially better options out there. I guess it's 'possible' to hit a grand with that (using the 6 ARC) but definitely it's not ideal at all. You will end up spending a fair amount on optics. Don't waste your money with that one though (if it's not too late). That said there are 'budget' options out there that are not that much more money but they will save you a lot of headaches and frustration.

You mention CFE223. I don't really know anything about reloading yet, but intend to start in the near future. I ordered a few books but haven't been able to read anything yet. I'm going to have a lot of questions about reloading in the near future. I will ask some now though.

Are there powders, such as the CFE223 that you mentioned that are optimal for several calibers? I mean would something like the CFE223 be good for 223 Wylde, 6mm ARC, 300 Blackout and 6.5CM? and a different type of powder for handguns (9mm and 40)? Or would I have to get different types for all four rifle calibers I mentioned above if I did have all four calibers?

As a general rule powders being used across calibers is an exception rather than the rule. It typically takes a lot of testing to get a load built up and honed to be where you want it. Even experienced reloaders need to test a lot. This can include using a bunch of various powders. Some might be mediocre at best and others might be perfect for a given caliber and bullet combination.

Although CFE 223 is a diverse powder it cannot be a one stop shop for all things rifle. No. It doesn't work like that. I have a 10.5" SBR that (when I run out of other stuff) I will create a load for that SBR using heavy bullets in 223/5.56. That was my original use for it. Then I built the 6 ARC and that is one of the powders that works really well in that too. In other words it does happen, but do not count on it. In my 5.56 SBR I don't need precision ammo. I do not shoot that gun for groups or anything like that. It's a blaster and although I can expect a measure of accuracy, if I am running around shooting off hand around barricades or whatever I am not anticipating a small group even at 50 yards.

Also, I know that ammo can last a long time, but typically bullets are sealed air tight into brass. How long are bottles of powder typically good for?

This is a highly dependent question. It depends on how you store everything. All of my stuff is stored in a climate controlled environment. In those circumstances powder can last years without a huge negative loss.

One of the bigger factors that a lot of people don't think about is the powder will stabilize to YOUR environment. If you live in the muggy swamps of Louisiana and your buddy lives in the desert of Arizona, with the same type and lot of powder you would get slightly differing results over time. It's nothing insane to worry about per se though. Just use SAFE reloading practices and you will be fine.

Again if you store the powder in a cool, dry place it can last a really long time.

 

[jd22981]

You are definitely chasing your tail going for some whizbang marketing hype. If you start with quality components you don't need to do any of that stuff. You are quite literally chasing a ghost for something that literally does not matter. My advice is to put your efforts elsewhere.

You are doing the right thing by asking questions and you are getting solid advice but some of it might not be what you want to hear. IE stop thinking about 'thermo fit' or whatever that is supposed to be. There are way more important things to worry about. For every perceived gain from spending hard earned cash on a whizbang wigit such as 'thermo fit' the day you start pulling the trigger you will realize that none of that matters. AT ALL. Buy good components (minus the fluff). I have an AR that can shoot about a half minute if I do my part (with a 4x optic even), maybe better if I swap optics. But the minute I load up some cheapish ammo it becomes a 2 MOA gun, if that.

The same thing will be true with your JP or any other rifle, except it might not be a half minute shooter.

Whatever fancy high dollar 'technology' you put into the rifle is useless if you don't use good ammo. You can either buy it or learn to make it. Up to you...but trying to get around that through other means is wasting both time and money and a whole lot of effort.

I am not trying to be rude, but rather save you from hassles.

I will read your other post and try to respond as well.

I kind of figured I was chasing my tail. I know JP puts a lot into marketing. I'm at the point where I want to start shooting and putting everything into that rather than components of builds.
I do plan on getting into hand loading, and any ammo I buy has been good. I've stocked up on lapua 223 and haven't even finished the build yet.

Thanks for the input alamo5000

 

[alamo5000]

I kind of figured I was chasing my tail. I know JP puts a lot into marketing. I'm at the point where I want to start shooting and putting everything into that rather than components of builds.
I do plan on getting into hand loading, and any ammo I buy has been good. I've stocked up on lapua 223 and haven't even finished the build yet.

Thanks for the input alamo5000

You need ammo that is 'good enough' for your required use. If I were you I would stop and get more advice before you blow all your cash.

By ammo that is 'good enough'... in my earlier post I mentioned that I have a 10.5" 5.56 rifle. I do not sit at a bench with that rifle. Ever. That's not what it is meant for. You run around with it, shoot around stuff and from behind stuff and practice your relatively close engagements with it.

The rifle is capable of shooting ok groups but what does that mean? At 50 yards with a precision rifle you can get 1 hole groups. With a 10.5" gun with a 1x Aimpoint red dot the idea behind it has nothing to do with groups. It just needs to be good enough. The shooter (IE Me) will be shooting offhand with a high heart rate or whatever while moving. I don't know about anyone else but just hitting the target is enough, screw the groups.
With all that said I wouldn't even DREAM of using Lapua Brass in a rifle like that. Not only is it useless, it will get lost, and it's way overkill and definitely not in it's lane. Will it shoot? Yes. But that's not the point. I can use brass that costs 1/4th the price and get my desired results with that specific rifle.

Likewise I won't spend hours on end making a precision load for a 10.5" blaster. Annealing cases, etc... screw all that. Just get a progressive press and some range brass and go to town.

For a different rifle though I can spend a lot more time (per round) to make sure everything is right.

If you want all your rifles to be 'precision oriented' that's fine. But you need to know that upfront and set them up that way. Almost all of my ARs have a different setup for different use. All of your components from brass to bullets need to be purchased with the end goal in mind.

 

[jd22981]

That's good, but do not think that a Grendel is 'bad'. Don't even go down that road. Think of it as buying a new pair of shoes. Which ones fit your needs better? Do you need tennis shoes or dress shoes? Which ones are more comfortable?

The Grendel is great but it's not the best at what I want to do (in my opinion).

From everything I've read the Grendel would be a little better for hunting and the ARC a little better at remaining flat in its trajectory. I've also read that they are so close that either would really be practical for probably any intended purpose I might have. I wouldn't think either is bad.

If I were you I would not think that way. If you build one rifle (.223) and get 25,000 rounds of ammo or whatever your number happens to be depending on what and how much you shoot, that's when you can ride out insane supply rides. Deep is a lot better than wide.

I'm definitely going to move forward with the 223. I already have ammo for it. Anytime I see sales for top quality ammo I buy a few boxes. I get what you are saying though. I know people with 20 or 30 rifle chamberings and that wont be me. I want the 300 blackout pistol for home defense, and ideally a decent long range hunting rifle which is why I was thinking 6.5CM. The 3rd rifle I was just doing as more of an in between because why spend money for 6.5CM ammo on something that can be hunted with cheaper and probably more readily available ammo. Now I do like the idea of the Lapua, but I don't think that's within my budget for the near and distant future.

I am not familiar at all with that scope but I looked it up. There are substantially better options out there. I guess it's 'possible' to hit a grand with that (using the 6 ARC) but definitely it's not ideal at all. You will end up spending a fair amount on optics. Don't waste your money with that one though (if it's not too late). That said there are 'budget' options out there that are not that much more money but they will save you a lot of headaches and frustration.

It's already too late, but I ordered it blemished for $240 so I don't have any real regrets yet. I still don't know what to really look for in scopes from one to the next. I understand magnification and beyond that, not much else. I will probably get an eotech for the 300 blackout because I know they are true holographic sights and it's a short range build

As a general rule powders being used across calibers is an exception rather than the rule. It typically takes a lot of testing to get a load built up and honed to be where you want it. Even experienced reloaders need to test a lot. This can include using a bunch of various powders. Some might be mediocre at best and others might be perfect for a given caliber and bullet combination.

Although CFE 223 is a diverse powder it cannot be a one stop shop for all things rifle. No. It doesn't work like that. I have a 10.5" SBR that (when I run out of other stuff) I will create a load for that SBR using heavy bullets in 223/5.56. That was my original use for it. Then I built the 6 ARC and that is one of the powders that works really well in that too. In other words it does happen, but do not count on it. In my 5.56 SBR I don't need precision ammo. I do not shoot that gun for groups or anything like that. It's a blaster and although I can expect a measure of accuracy, if I am running around shooting off hand around barricades or whatever I am not anticipating a small group even at 50 yards.

Makes sense. I'm definitely going to get into loading, but know I have a lot to learn first. I've read reviews and have decided on a Forester Co-Ax press, but they have been out of stock. In the mean time I get my factory Lapua ammo and will save brass for then the press eventually comes around and I can read up more on the topic. I definitely wont touch actually reloading until I feel confident that I know exactly what I'm doing. Part of my wanting to reload is to keep 300 blackout ammo just below subsonic for my build specifically. It's definitely in my future.

This is a highly dependent question. It depends on how you store everything. All of my stuff is stored in a climate controlled environment. In those circumstances powder can last years without a huge negative loss.

One of the bigger factors that a lot of people don't think about is the powder will stabilize to YOUR environment. If you live in the muggy swamps of Louisiana and your buddy lives in the desert of Arizona, with the same type and lot of powder you would get slightly differing results over time. It's nothing insane to worry about per se though. Just use SAFE reloading practices and you will be fine.

Again if you store the powder in a cool, dry place it can last a really long time.

Assuming a climate controlled environment, full of silica packets, and hardly any major temperature fluctuations over time, would a really long time to you mean a year or two, or twenty years? I've heard that factory ammo from WW2 that was properly stored is still good. Don't know how true that is though.

 

[rpoL98]

Are there semiauto offerings in either?

https://onlylongrange.com/bad-news-338-lapua-magnum/

i have no experience, and no knowledge of the Noreen 338LM Bad News. just mental candy.

 

[jd22981]

You need ammo that is 'good enough' for your required use. If I were you I would stop and get more advice before you blow all your cash.

By ammo that is 'good enough'... in my earlier post I mentioned that I have a 10.5" 5.56 rifle. I do not sit at a bench with that rifle. Ever. That's not what it is meant for. You run around with it, shoot around stuff and from behind stuff and practice your relatively close engagements with it.

The rifle is capable of shooting ok groups but what does that mean? At 50 yards with a precision rifle you can get 1 hole groups. With a 10.5" gun with a 1x Aimpoint red dot the idea behind it has nothing to do with groups. It just needs to be good enough. The shooter (IE Me) will be shooting offhand with a high heart rate or whatever while moving. I don't know about anyone else but just hitting the target is enough, screw the groups.
With all that said I wouldn't even DREAM of using Lapua Brass in a rifle like that. Not only is it useless, it will get lost, and it's way overkill and definitely not in it's lane. Will it shoot? Yes. But that's not the point. I can use brass that costs 1/4th the price and get my desired results with that specific rifle.

Likewise I won't spend hours on end making a precision load for a 10.5" blaster. Annealing cases, etc... screw all that. Just get a progressive press and some range brass and go to town.

For a different rifle though I can spend a lot more time (per round) to make sure everything is right.

If you want all your rifles to be 'precision oriented' that's fine. But you need to know that upfront and set them up that way. Almost all of my ARs have a different setup for different use. All of your components from brass to bullets need to be purchased with the end goal in mind.

Thanks alamo5000. You're right 100% I know. I think part of my problem is that my end goal has changed 100 times from the time I started this till now. That's entirely on me though and I need to stick with a plan. Midway had the Lapua ammo on sale last week for $19.99/box, and was normally something like $40+. It wasn't far off in price from the cheaper options, but all of the ammo I buy has been when I find decent sales. I'm definitely not going to waste the best of my ammo in situations that don't require it nor through a rifle that isn't built for it

 

[jd22981]

https://onlylongrange.com/bad-news-338-lapua-magnum/

i have no experience, and no knowledge of the Noreen 338LM Bad News. just mental candy.

Nice! I just went to youtube and looked it up too. I could go back to my hometown in Maine and get moose no problem with that thing

 

[hlee]

You could get a moose, no problem, with a 30-30 lever gun- and I bet I lot of hunters do.

Don't overthink the caliber. 95% of new chamber/caliber introductions are designed for one purpose only- to separate a customer from his/her money. Finish your build and go shoot.

Are there semiauto offerings in either?

You missed the point, and I'm not inclined to explain it.

 

[jd22981]

I was moreso joking about the semiauto offering. I was picturing someone running around with a semi auto 338 lapua like a 3 gun match type gun and didn't think they existed other than in a manual bolt action configuration. I can't say that I'm surprised though. I don't plan on getting one. The only exception would be way down the line and only if I was to turn and mill the components out on the lathe and Bridgeport myself at the cost of material, which even then would just be a time investment because I could probably make a receiver and most components out of scrap melted down in my home built foundry. Would be more of a serious investment in time on my part. I understand what you're saying.

 

[jd22981]

You could get a moose, no problem, with a 30-30 lever gun- and I bet I lot of hunters do.

Don't overthink the caliber. 95% of new chamber/caliber introductions are designed for one purpose only- to separate a customer from his/her money. Finish your build and go shoot.


You missed the point, and I'm not inclined to explain it.

I was moreso joking about the semiauto offering. I was picturing someone running around with a semi auto 338 lapua like a 3 gun match type gun and didn't think they existed other than in a manual bolt action configuration. I can't say that I'm surprised though. I don't plan on getting one. The only exception would be way down the line and only if I was to turn and mill the components out on the lathe and Bridgeport myself at the cost of material, which even then would just be a time investment because I could probably make a receiver and most components out of scrap melted down in my home built foundry. Would be more of a serious investment in time on my part. I understand what you're saying.

 

[Ape_Factory]

You know, if you go with a .223, you can use one lower and add a 300 blackout upper. I built my 223 wylde upper knowing I'd be adding a 300 blackout upper for subs and supers.

I can bring both to the range and literally drop the lower and slap it on the other upper and they work as designed. You have to select the components carefully, specifically the buffer and bolt carrier group arrangement, but it can be done without too much effort. I even use the same suppressor. This'll save you a bit of funds for another build.

Granted, you can build a lower for very little money but this way you can go with one quality lower of uncompromising quality and have the same trigger to use with both uppers (consistency).

 

[plt228]

Not to drag the discussion back to if you need a thermostat-fit upper or not but here is a video from JP on how they do it. I do this on all of my builds using BCM uppers. Haven’t had to do it on any Aero uppers.

 

[jd22981]

Not to drag the discussion back to if you need a thermostat-fit upper or not but here is a video from JP on how they do it. I do this on all of my builds using BCM uppers. Haven’t had to do it on any Aero uppers.

This was a long thread and can't remember if I posted it above, but I started more than one build at the same time. The other build has a JP CTR02, and this video is what I followed when I installed the barrel. I used my hot water heater for camping (JetBoil) to warm the receiver to do it like in the video. There's just a lot of misinformation out there as to which uppers require this and which don't. I think the confusion surrounding the JP15 upper being a thermofit upper originated on the JP website. The completed JP15 rifle says it has a JP15 upper and that the barrel was thermofitted. It was only upon contacting JP that I was told that they have different thermofitting methods for different uppers, and the JP15 is just a milspec upper. That they use a different "thermofitting method" for the JP15.
My guess is that they use an oversized barrel extension and/or a retaining compound such as loctite 620 & steel shims or something on the JP15 rifles they sell already assembled. Putting the term thermofit on their completed rifles I believe has led to confusion on forums which spread and further that confusion. I will likely go with a BCM if they ever actually come back around in stock.

 

[jd22981]

You know, if you go with a .223, you can use one lower and add a 300 blackout upper. I built my 223 wylde upper knowing I'd be adding a 300 blackout upper for subs and supers.

I can bring both to the range and literally drop the lower and slap it on the other upper and they work as designed. You have to select the components carefully, specifically the buffer and bolt carrier group arrangement, but it can be done without too much effort. I even use the same suppressor. This'll save you a bit of funds for another build.

Granted, you can build a lower for very little money but this way you can go with one quality lower of uncompromising quality and have the same trigger to use with both uppers (consistency).

I started a few builds at once, and the one build is a 300 blackout. The other I'm doing as the 223. The 300 blackout is already complete for the most part. I was in a state in the North East that forbids ARs and firearms in general. I knew I was moving south to a red state and saved up for a few builds over the course of a few years. Moving south after saving up for a few years I had money saved up for more than one build the 300 blackout really only needs an optic at this point. I'm going to get an EOtech for it. In the long run I plan on getting an Omega 300 and SBR paperwork

This other build is the one I was going back and forth on which caliber but will stick with 223 for now.

On all the builds I have been going with top tier manufacturers, but still have been waiting for things to be on sale, like with the SSA and SSA-E triggers. Found them blemished.