First precision rifle!

A

afilion

Private
Minuteman
Oct 13, 2009
9
0
34
#1
So here it is the aac-sd. This is my first bolt gun and im excited to start getting out to the longer distances. I have been a long time lurker over the past couple years and have learned alot from this site.

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<span style="font-weight: bold">Arntzen </span>2/3 scale IPSC target
By the way these targets are awesome! For the price they really cannot be beat. AR500 3/8" steel for half the price you will find at the popular manufactures. Great costumer service and fast shipping. Sorry if I sound like a sales person but i'm a college student with a tight budget so this was an awesome discovery.
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Anyway my overall goal is a thousand yards with this rifle. This is a budget build but i think i will make it out to a grand depending on my skill level and what the barrel likes bullet wise.

Sold the upper to get the funds for my bolt gun and I dont think ill regret it!
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Tonight the stock will go on eBay and I probably will keep the trigger and bottom metal.

I will hunt for 1 month a year with this so im thinking about ordering the HS precision M24 stock to keep the weight down. In a few weeks Im going to put my order in for a XLR or Whiskey 3 (Cant decide yet!) and keep the HS for when I go hunting in the mountains back home.

Meanwhile I want to shoot for the next 4 months with the HS Precision and work on my shooting skills.

Last night I ordered:
SWFA 12x mil/mil
Weaver 20 moa
Burris XTR 30mm Low Rings
Harris 6-9 inch BRM Swivel with Pod lock

Big thanks to all the great information people help provide to new shooters. Another thanks to Lonewolfusmc for the youtube videos and answering some of the simple and complex questions in detail.

One question I do have and that is ammo, I do have free time to do hand loads, probably shoot 168 smk's and 175 smk's. I just dont know if its worth buying the single stage press and precision dies and all the other stuff. I want to try and shoot around 50 rounds every weekend so 200 rounds a month.

I live in North Dakota so i wont be shooting from november-march. That being said shooting ill have about 7 months at 200 rounds a month so 1400 rounds a year (who really knows at this point just a good estimate). After buying all the reloading equipment and materials for 1400 it will be expensive. I was thinking about shooting black hills for around $30 a box instead. How much on average do you guys think i would save per round by going the reloading route? Would i be able to break even in a year or two? I am not asking for anyone to bust out the calculators, I can do the math, but in your experience does reloading match grade ammo save you that much money (this also depends on how much you shoot, 1400 rounds year is probably low for alot of you guys).

Thanks again!
 
#2
Re: First precision rifle!

It's well worth getting the reloading set up, I couldn't get my aac-sd to shoot worth a flip until I started loading 175smk to the lands. When I got the round count up to about 600 the gun really started to shoot better, or I got better...
 
#3
Re: First precision rifle!

Everything looks good so far! I personally woulda gone with a variable zoom scope since you probably won't be target switching too often, but I can see where it might come in handy for fast target acquisition, ranging, and holdover in hunting and such.

When it comes to reloading to save money... I went into how long it would take me to recoup the setup I want in this post: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3353793#Post3353793
The rest of the thread operates on a similar vein. When and if you read it, too, keep in mind the prices on everything in there is based off of buying multiples of the smallest quantity for brass and bullets and not buying powder in bulk. You can probably get your cost per round down another $0.10-$0.15 if you buy bullets, brass, or powder in bulk.
Like you, I'm a college student, and I want to start reloading soon not only because of the cost savings but also because of the accuracy gains I'll get from personalized ammo for my rifle.

Just a side note- don't shoot the 168SMKs if you want to get out to 1k yards. It's not anywhere close to being competitive with some other bullets for the .308 in that aspect. I would recommend the 175SMK or 178AMAX (or maybe even heavier, like the 208AMAX) with your rifle's barrel twist of 1:10". I wouldn't recommend the lighter bullets like the 155 Scenar or 155 SMK.
 
#4
Re: First precision rifle!

Thanks for the input, yea im definitely going to read that thread. I was going to go with 6-24 pst sfp but getting this (SS 12x) would get me up and shooting faster. I sold my upper on the ar to buy the bolt gun, with plans to rebuild an 18 inch spr of some sort. I think the 12x will go on the ar after this fall which i think would be a good scope for a spr build. Yea 175 or heavier would be good for the distance.

Equitum what kind of build do you have? Would you recommend any specific reloading brands for the press or dies? My buddy swears by RCBS, seems like everyone likes them and has really quality stuff.

The only thing that I have going against me is I'm a flight instructor up here in north dakota and will be moving to the regional airlines here in less than a year so I might have to store my reloading stuff back with the rents until my schedule calms down. It would be kind of fun to experiment and find a load that the gun really likes.
 
#5
Re: First precision rifle!

Well, for the price, you can't beat Lee. I'm not reloading yet, but I'm definitely getting the Lee Challenger Breech Lock Single-Stage Press Kit, which'll include the press, a manual scale, a hand primer, a powder dispenser, etc. - everything but the dies and a case prep setup.
To me, it really seems like you can't go wrong with any of the reputable brands (Lee, RCBS, Redding...) when it comes to the press or a starter kit, and it really comes down to what you're going to pay. The RCBS Rockchucker Starter Kit parts will probably stay around longer than, say, your Lee powder measure or scale, but the Lee Challenger kit will get you off the ground and it will be plenty until you know what you like and don't like about the equipment.

For your dies, I would recommend the Lee Deluxe 3-Die Set in your caliber of choice - it'll give you a full length resizing die, a Collet neck sizing die, and a bullet seating die, all in a nice storage box with some pages to jot down load data.

I just started pretty recently myself (around a month and a half ago), but I've been researching the hell out of everything. It's my new addiction! xD
My rifle: Rem 700 SPS-V in .308 w/ 26" 1:12" twist factory barrel, Falcon Menace 4-14x44 mil/mil FFP in Leupold STD rings and base, Harris BRM-S 6"-9", factory stock (next thing to replace); currently shooting Southwest Ammuniton's Standard Match in 175SMK with Winchester brass until i'm reloading
 
#7
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WadeP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never known anyone, me included, to save money reloading. You just end up shooting more. </div></div>

Hahaha, that's one way to think of it. You save money if you shoot the same amount though
wink.gif
 
#8
Re: First precision rifle!

I agree with WadeP. I've probably spent more by reloading, but I also end up shooting a lot more centerfire rifle than I would otherwise. .308 is a great round to reload for, I highly recommend it. There is a ton of data out there for it, and there are so many powder/bullet combos that will work well. I've been well served by my lee equipment for many years now, although you will probably gravitate toward more expensive stuff as time goes on. good luck, looks like a good setup.

p.s. you are living the dream to fly for a living. i chickened out and went to law school
 
#10
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: immcpat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It feels good not being the only college student doing a budget build </div></div>

yea haha it isn't fun trying to get into a rifle build that is more expensive than your car!
 
#11
Re: First precision rifle!

I'm on the one year plan. I plan on having my rifle completely set up by next summer and then use next summer to play around with reloading. Also I'll be done with school by then so hopefully I'll have a lot more time.
 
#13
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: immcpat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It feels good not being the only college student doing a budget build</div></div>

I wish I was still a poor college student! I swear I had more spending money back then LOL!
 
#15
Re: First precision rifle!

I would absolutely recommend getting into reloading right away since you have the time. At $30 a box and planning on shooting 200 rounds a month that's $300 a month. Doing a little math here...

RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit ~$300 on sale
LEE Collet, FL and Seater Die Kit ~$32
Varget ~$25lb (about 155 loads so $0.16 per shot)
Match Bullets ~$30/hundred ($0.30 per shot)
CCI 200 Primers ~$30/thousand ($0.03 per shot)
Winchester .308win brass ~$40/hundred (8 uses = $0.05 per shot)
$50 Rebate from RCBS for spending >$300
$25 Rebate from RCBS for purchasing >5 sleeves of CCI primers
$457-$75=$382 round up for extra expenses to $400. Then something to clean the cases with at $70. Grand total of $470 including you're first 100 rounds plus some (a lot). Then just do the math of $0.54 (very conservative estimate) per round to see how long it will take you before your equipment "pays for itself." By my estimate, It's about 2 months worth of shooting according to your 200rounds/month at $30 per 20. Everything after that is about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of what you were expecting to pay. Just an FYI, I didn't recommend Lee because it's cheap, I recommended it because the collet die is a very nice system and the bullet seater works very well too. I made the switch to that and am having great results.

I just put a 20" LTR .308 in and XLR and couldn't be happier. I shoot 208 A-Max with Reloader 17 and the recoil is much different than 168gr. That said, the XLR made a world of difference in handling the change. Good luck, it looks like you did you're research and made some great choices already.
 
#16
Re: First precision rifle!

lurker is an understatement
laugh.gif
member since 09 and 5 posts. Just messin...

congrats on the purchase

and as many suggest, reloading is the way to go if not for the noney for the sake of fine tuning your ammo to your rifle.

it can be quite rewarding and enjoyable
 
#17
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hahco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with WadeP. I've probably spent more by reloading, but I also end up shooting a lot more centerfire rifle than I would otherwise. .308 is a great round to reload for, I highly recommend it. There is a ton of data out there for it, and there are so many powder/bullet combos that will work well. I've been well served by my lee equipment for many years now, although you will probably gravitate toward more expensive stuff as time goes on. good luck, looks like a good setup.

p.s. you are living the dream to fly for a living. i chickened out and went to law school </div></div>


Yea the reloading part of things is looking like a way (of many) to squeeze the most accuracy out of your gun. I think it is appropriate for new shooters to start with .308 since, like you said, there is so much data on this round and it is simple and easy to start reloading.

Thanks for the comment on flying, it is a blast and has treated me well so far as a career. I got a couple friends in law school right now and they dont regret it at all. With any technical or specialized profession, its all about putting in alot of time to gain that experience which can burn somebody out very fast if your not passionate about it, so find what you like and stick with it! I see a lot of kids come to flight school because there parents wanted them to be a pilot and they drop out on average within the first 4 months because they have no desire to learn about the profession!
 
#18
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Valere</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would absolutely recommend getting into reloading right away since you have the time. At $30 a box and planning on shooting 200 rounds a month that's $300 a month. Doing a little math here...

RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit ~$300 on sale
LEE Collet, FL and Seater Die Kit ~$32
Varget ~$25lb (about 155 loads so $0.16 per shot)
Match Bullets ~$30/hundred ($0.30 per shot)
CCI 200 Primers ~$30/thousand ($0.03 per shot)
Winchester .308win brass ~$40/hundred (8 uses = $0.05 per shot)
$50 Rebate from RCBS for spending >$300
$25 Rebate from RCBS for purchasing >5 sleeves of CCI primers
$457-$75=$382 round up for extra expenses to $400. Then something to clean the cases with at $70. Grand total of $470 including you're first 100 rounds plus some (a lot). Then just do the math of $0.54 (very conservative estimate) per round to see how long it will take you before your equipment "pays for itself." By my estimate, It's about 2 months worth of shooting according to your 200rounds/month at $30 per 20. Everything after that is about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of what you were expecting to pay. Just an FYI, I didn't recommend Lee because it's cheap, I recommended it because the collet die is a very nice system and the bullet seater works very well too. I made the switch to that and am having great results.

I just put a 20" LTR .308 in and XLR and couldn't be happier. I shoot 208 A-Max with Reloader 17 and the recoil is much different than 168gr. That said, the XLR made a world of difference in handling the change. Good luck, it looks like you did you're research and made some great choices already. </div></div>

Hey Valere I really appreciate you doing the numbers, I hope it didn't take you to long! I was going to do it myself I was just lazy but definitely looks like a solid investment, probably make my money back within the first couple months if I can find some good deals on bulk powder, bullets etc. Thanks!

I really want the xlr, with the lead times I'm probably not going to receive it until it is getting cold up here. The wait will be worth it.

Re25 your right I probably will shoot when its cold, but december through about March 1st we are still well under 0 degrees Fahrenheit at the warmest part of day. I have tried shooting at -30 with 15mph wind and was miserable but if I keep the car running I can just hop in the car warm up every couple minutes haha!
 
#19
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Equitum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just a side note- don't shoot the 168SMKs if you want to get out to 1k yards. It's not anywhere close to being competitive with some other bullets for the .308 in that aspect. I would recommend the 175SMK or 178AMAX (or maybe even heavier, like the 208AMAX) with your rifle's barrel twist of 1:10". I wouldn't recommend the lighter bullets like the 155 Scenar or 155 SMK. </div></div>

I've said many times here I've never understood the like for the 168s in a .308. There's nothing they do better ( or even as well past 600) as the 175/178s. Remember though, you're not matching a bullet to barrel twist by weight so much as you are length. Heavier bullets usually do better in a tighter twist barrel because they are longer, not because they are heavier. Bullets such as the 155 Scenars usually do well in the faster twist barrels also because they have a very long profile like the heavies. Many people have done very well with them out to 1k.
Good luck with your rig, I think you've made solid choices. I predict you'll get into reloading eventually if you continue your interest in this sport, most do. I would reload whether it saved me money or not, which it does. I really enjoy it and the challenges it brings. Have fun and be safe.

Okie
 
#20
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Valere</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would absolutely recommend getting into reloading right away since you have the time. At $30 a box and planning on shooting 200 rounds a month that's $300 a month. Doing a little math here...

RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit ~$300 on sale
LEE Collet, FL and Seater Die Kit ~$32
Varget ~$25lb (about 155 loads so $0.16 per shot)
Match Bullets ~$30/hundred ($0.30 per shot)
CCI 200 Primers ~$30/thousand ($0.03 per shot)
Winchester .308win brass ~$40/hundred (8 uses = $0.05 per shot)
$50 Rebate from RCBS for spending >$300
$25 Rebate from RCBS for purchasing >5 sleeves of CCI primers
$457-$75=$382 round up for extra expenses to $400. Then something to clean the cases with at $70. Grand total of $470 including you're first 100 rounds plus some (a lot). Then just do the math of $0.54 (very conservative estimate) per round to see how long it will take you before your equipment "pays for itself." By my estimate, It's about 2 months worth of shooting according to your 200rounds/month at $30 per 20. Everything after that is about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of what you were expecting to pay. Just an FYI, I didn't recommend Lee because it's cheap, I recommended it because the collet die is a very nice system and the bullet seater works very well too. I made the switch to that and am having great results.
</div></div>

Just to compare to his numbers-
What I came out to, from my Cost per Round thread in the reloading section:

At the cost of components from Midway (bullets and brass) and Cabela's (powder and primer, locally so I don't have to pay Hazmat), I come out to about $0.84/round, with extra powder and primers left over.

Bags of Winchester brass, 50 per bag- $18.49 ea. , $73.96 total = $0.3398 per case

Hornady 178 AMAX, boxes of 100- $29.99 ea., $59.98 total= $0.2999 per bullet

Varget powder, 1 lb- $25.99 ea., assuming a load of 45gr (pretty low estimate from the .308 load depot thread) at 7000gr/lb, I'll need at least 2 lbs, so $51.98 total=$0.16708 per load (probably lower than it would really be at a developed load probably anywhere from 0.2-1.0gr higher)

CCI primers, per 1000- $29.99 total= $.02999 per primer

Add it all up= $0.8367685714285714 per round

That would be only the cost/round for the first batch. The brass' effective cost would be less per reload I used them for. New estimate for cost/case = (at an estimate of 8 total uses) $0.046225, New cost/round at 8 total uses= $0.543195
8 loads is probably a conservative estimate, by the way.


I've looked at how much it would cost for my setup... $150.98 for the Lee Challenger Breech Lock Single Stage Press Kit and Collett 3-Die Set; $254.95 for the Thumler Model B Rotary Tumbler, 5 lbs. of steel media, a media seperator, and some Lemishine; I'll get at least $15 off the order for the Lee kit and dies, and $10 off the brass cleaning kit, so that should cover a good deal of my shipping --- All in all, about $405.

I didn't factor that into my round cost and I won't because I view it as a start-up cost that I'll recoup over time. If I say $0.543195/round to load 8 batches of 200, that would cost $869.112. If I ordered 200 rounds 8 times from Southwest Ammunition (the factory ammo I have on order right now) at $210.99/200 round case or $1.05495/round, that would cost $1687.92. I'd recoup the cost far before the initial brass wore out - in fact, by solving the simple equation 1.05945*x - 0.543195*x=405, I figured out I'd recoup the cost after 786 loads, or after my 4th batch. Not bad!

I've factored in MidwayUSA discount codes for my costs as well as a discount of Stainless Tumbling Media's Deluxe Reloading Kit, and, just to reiterate, none of the components are bought in bulk, which would save you even more.



By the way, I went a different direction from where he did and got the stainless media and tumbler for brass cleaning, and the Lee kit over the RCBS kit. There's a lot of choices when it comes to pciking out a setup.

The savings from reloadings are amazing, to say the least. You'll pay off your setup within the first few batches you reload, and your cost per round will be half or less than half of the cost for factory match, at better accuracy if you take the time to do a load development yourself.
 
#21
Re: First precision rifle!

Equitum, the stainless tumbler is a great choice. If I had to do it over again, I'd probably go that direction rather than ultrasonic. I'm not a fan of wet cases but live and learn I guess.

I think Lee is under rated here.
 
#22
Re: First precision rifle!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Valere</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Equitum, the stainless tumbler is a great choice. If I had to do it over again, I'd probably go that direction rather than ultrasonic. I'm not a fan of wet cases but live and learn I guess.

I think Lee is under rated here.</div></div>

That's what I'd heard from a lot of guys... I didn't want to mess with buying media all the time, and ultrasonic cleaners have mixed reviews, so stainless seemed the way to go, even if it was $250 for the setup. I figure I'll eventually recoup that cost as well with the savings in media xD

I got a Lee reloading manual recently and they kinda sold me on Lee. I really don't get while people are so hard on Lee... They seem like the WalMart of reloading - good prices on quality stuff because they can afford to produce in a lot of quantity, but reviled because of those low prices. It might be my inexperience, but I really do think the Lee press will be sturdy and everything in the kit they have will last me a while. Hell, the price is almost too good to pass up... you get a powder measure, manual scale, funnel, press, hand primer, chamfer tool, primer pocket cleaning tool and case trimmer for around $115, or the $35 less than the RCBS Rockchucker Single Stage Press alone! Even if you end up tossing the scale and powder measure (which I've heard a lot of people do), that's still quite a deal.
 
#23
Re: First precision rifle!

If you do not want to start reloading right away, you could shoot southwest ammo at $20 a box instead of $30 for the blackhills. Do that for the rest of the year and have 1200 pieces of brass and $600 to by your equipment and supplies.
 
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