First They Go After The Little Guy - Battle Over Shooting Ranges

[Longshot231]

Most of you have heard of or have actually been a part of a battle to keep a shooting range open. Here's a recent example of a Township in Pennsylvania trying to shut down someone who is basically shooting on his own property and has been doing it for years.

This reminds of noise abatement rules near airports. The airport has been located well away from any city for decades. The community has benefited by air travel in and out of the airport.

Many years later the city has grown and developers buy up the surrounding farmland near the airport. Then the homeowners complain about the noise.

It's the same with some shooting ranges. Although Mr. Beliveau doesn't say it, I suspect that someone wants his property. So first they make the property worthless to him by prohibiting all shooting activity. Then after spending a fortune on attorney fees and only losing, he's in financial hardship.

So the people wanting his property give him a low ball offer.

 

[BadDogPSD]

Time to go a little Yellowstone!

 

[Alphatreedog]

Tread on them and there Ex post facto bullshit .

 

[canezach]

I can't tell if this is the city or county trying to go anti-gun, or if this is just typical government incompetence and the 2A is just collateral damage because of their idiocy

 

[The D]

Pretty common with dragstrips too. One near where I grew up went through a shakedown several years ago and just had to start a curfew

Bandimere dragstrip in Denver is shutting downs at the end of this season.

I guess if nobody wants a specific place for this to happen the racers will find some back roads or start roll racing on the highway

 

[Maggot]

Most of you have heard of or have actually been a part of a battle to keep a shooting range open. Here's a recent example of a Township in Pennsylvania trying to shut down someone who is basically shooting on his own property and has been doing it for years.

This reminds of noise abatement rules near airports. The airport has been located well away from any city for decades. The community has benefited by air travel in and out of the airport.

Many years later the city has grown and developers buy up the surrounding farmland near the airport. Then the homeowners complain about the noise.

It's the same with some shooting ranges. Although Mr. Beliveau doesn't say it, I suspect that someone wants his property. So first they make the property worthless to him by prohibiting all shooting activity. Then after spending a fortune on attorney fees and only losing, he's in financial hardship.

So the people wanting his property give him a low ball offer.

The parasites lawyers win no matter what.

 

[Jscb1b]

The parasites lawyers win no matter what.

Can we pack them in a sub?

 

[lash]

Can we pack them in a sub?

Need a bigger sub.

 

[pmclaine]

Can we pack them in a sub?

I’ve seen some parts that can be had.

Assembly required.

 

[Maggot]

Can we pack them in a sub?

.22 is cheaper and more certain.. Remember the old saying "Shit floats."

 

[mosin46]

have seen this happen 2+ times in cent fl

 

[lash]

have seen this happen 2+ times in cent fl

It sucks, and it is people. It’s what they do. I, Me, Me, Mine.

 

[Bullfrog08]

It sucks, and it is people. It’s what they do. I, Me, Me, Mine.

Yep....one thing Im sure of in life, if it can be fucked up, it usually involves people. We cant even get along, with regards to a short trip on the roadways.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Nearly happened to the range I frequent which happens to be right next to an 1/8 mile drag strip and drift track(which happens to be closed) out in the country.

My Avatar is a a joke because of it. Spent big bucks draggin the owner through a law suit and lost. 2 Times when I have been out there at the 1k firing line, he'd come stand at the edge of the property and scream insults at people. " you'ur a wana be hero" is one of his lines.

I just see it as further training, being able to keep your cool and focus while some one is hurling insults at you.

 

[DocRDS]

Somehow the range I used to frequent survived but its the same story over and over. Developers sued because they built houseese a mile away then blamed the range (lots of people shot ourside the range, it was in a floodplain near a creek). City forced tons of changes on them and for a while they limited you to <30 cal while they raised the berm (laughs in 6.5 manbun!). I'm glad they beat it--I complained about there stupid ROs and rules, but a range 5 minutes from the house is like heaven of weekdays (no one there!).

But yeah, shut down the lil guy, yank his land then spend it mini-mansions. I do ok for myself, but man someone is making a shit ton of money in this world and I gotta figure out how. I need in on this govt scam.

 

[Oldloser]

They do a squeeze.

First the range gets incorporated into a town or other zoning agency,

Then another agency says make change X,y,z and they prep to do that.

The the town or zoning board says you need a permit and refuses to issue it.

This is why many business move, especially in heavy industry.

On the plus side, if a town officer has colluded with the agency or a economic interest, a good attorney can smoke out tortuous interference and collusion, and that is a big bucks settlement.

Several companies have taken towns to court, started discovery, found the smoking gun, or scheduled to put someone under oath, and those towns have settled well into the hundreds of millions.

 

[Longshot231]

Another story to make your blood boil.

 

[nagantguy]

Sorry Longshot231 I didn’t see you’d posted the above update and I also posted it . As you are the original OG OP on this I’ll see if I can have mine taken down if you’d like .

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Another story to make your blood boil.

I think I see why they pulled the Permit.

Not saying I agree with the action or fully understand the entire thing. Some would argue he misrepresent what the purpose was. Not once does he mention anything about a gun range.

 

[Longshot231]

Sorry Longshot231 I didn’t see you’d posted the above update and I also posted it . As you are the original OG OP on this I’ll see if I can have mine taken down if you’d like .

Did you post it on another thread? Either way, I'm not worried about it. If you have it on another thread, just leave it there. The more news that gets out about this, the better.

View attachment 8177526

I think I see why they pulled the Permit.

Not saying I agree with the action or fully understand the entire thing. Some would argue he misrepresent what the purpose was. Not once does he mention anything about a gun range.

Could it be that some students wanted to do extracurricular firearms training or form a shooting club off campus?

 

[Emerson0311]

My home range just got a public complaint to the government about shot landing outside the property line. Adding an incoming inspection of the centerfire range by government, and I’m looking for another place to shoot before this one is shut down. This is the future.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Could it be that some students wanted to do extracurricular firearms training or form a shooting club off campus?

I have very little direct knowledge of what he was/is doing.

Just stating I can see why "they" might consider the structure a mis representation of use.

 

[EddieNFL]

The parasites lawyers win no matter what.

 

[acpchuck]

Had to deal with a similar situation in SE Idaho several years ago when I was president of a 1500 member, gun range. The range had been in existence for about 20 years, was on leased (the original) BLM land and surrounding land owners wanted the range closed so they could develop around the range. Note the land around the range was either farm land or used for grazing livestock, i.e. covered in sage brush. Fortunately Idaho has a law that says once a formal gun range has been in existence for 5 years, it cannot be closed due to complaints about noise.

We did make many improvements to reduce the risk of rounds leaving the range. I attended county commissioner meetings, had a TV news interview and raised holy hell with the local newspaper after they printed a one sided article. Funny thing on that is they realized their reporter didn't talk to me, basing the entire article on what one land owner was saying. They wrote a new article based on what I provided to them in writing and speaking to me, actually allowing me to review the article before they published it. Have to say that surprised me they did all of that but turns out the publisher and editor were both range members.

Interesting thing is on adjoining BLM land was the LEO gun range. Seemed that was OK even though the safety concerns they had about our range were even more significant with the LEO range.

Have since moved from Idaho, miss the range and the shooting events but not the time I spent in a 'volunteer' position dealing with this type of political crap. Was back in the area this last weekend and there has been minimal development so far. Seems the plans for building a high tech office center employing 1000+ people, large retail centers, a golf course and housing for 15,000 people isn't happening at a very fast pace.

Range is the Oregon Trail Gun Range

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Another reason why suppressors should be something you can buy off-the shelf

 

[lonegunman762x51]

My brother had a personal range on his property in Georgia for 25 years. For all 25 years he had a neighbor who called the cops every time he was shooting, sometimes they called a dozen times.

Cops told them it was legal over and over for twenty five years. Still called over and over.

Last year he sold it to a construction company that needs a place to repair and store heavy equipment. He moved to Alabama. They can enjoy the sounds of dump trucks and dozers all day.

 

[nagantguy]

A range sorta north west of here where I trained to be an instructor called Kickin Brass Range . Same shit - their last law suit was from a lady claiming the gun fire caused her dog to have anxiety attacks.

Funny thing before it was a fire arms training academy- not open to the public it was a working gravel yard - complete with rock/concrete crusher and a 5A-5P steam of gravel trucks in and out .

Yes suppressors should be a box store item!

 

[Tempest 455]

We shot a state F class match last year for 2 days. We could not start match until after 10:00 AM on Sunday because a local woman (who moved from CA) complained about gun shots (yeah she moved near a gun club) and complained to city hall.

 

[lash]

You guys saying that suppressors would fix the issue are missing the point, the long haul. While I agree that they should be off the shelf here, there will always be those doing their best to shut down shooting ranges. Why do you think many ranges in Europe have overhead baffles to intercept errant high shots?

 

[mi650]

This happened to a range near where I grew up. I remember going past it on the bus when I was in kindergarten, no idea how long it had been in business before that.

New subdivision was built when I was about 40. Yep, noise complaints started rolling in.

 

[Longshot231]

 

[wvfarrier]

Its interesting that these cities and states will complain about some guy shooting on his own land because of "noise" but those rotten !@#$% have no issue with running their heavy equipment 24/7 regardless of the noise

 

[eprom]

Almost all our local ranges have similar issues in my country. Seems not specific to the US in any way. We even have a federal 'regulation' since 2 years that make bullet traps mandatory for all outdoor shooting ranges. The official reasoning being them is that lead projectiles are bad. The funny thing is, every time we send a projectile downrange it now makes an additional noise when hitting the traps, resulting in twice the noise level in the neighborhood. We can't shoot .338 LM+ anymore, because the traps are not rated for them and would cost 12000USD+ per unit replaced. What a f* joke..

 

[Longshot231]

 

[pmclaine]

Town my range is in has decided the perfect place for the new town well would be on the range property.

Range has been in existence since 1920 or so. It's a rural area with lots of water opportunities.

Range has hired a lawyer and it will be a long slog.

Club money vs tax payer money.

 

[Longshot231]

Another perspective.

 

[Mister Ridge]

Another reason why suppressors should be something you can buy off-the shelf

I guess that could help but what are the guys who shoot nonsuppressible firearms supposed to do?

 

[Sirshredalot]

I guess that could help but what are the guys who shoot nonsuppressible firearms supposed to do?

Shoot quieter, dumbass

 

[Maggot]

We shot a state F class match last year for 2 days. We could not start match until after 10:00 AM on Sunday because a local woman (who moved from CA) complained about gun shots (yeah she moved near a gun club) and complained to city hall.

My range in Virginia has had a 1200 starting time on Sunday since opening 60 years ago just out of courtesy for the locals, most of whom support the range. Thats just being good neighbors.

 

[slowworm]

New Hampshire did something about this 20 years ago:

159-B:1 Exemption. – Notwithstanding the provisions of RSA 644:2, III(a) or any other law to the contrary, no person who owns, operates, or uses a shooting range in this state shall be subject to civil liability or criminal prosecution in any matter relating to noise or noise pollution, provided that the owners of the range are in compliance with any applicable noise control ordinances in existence at the time the range was established, was constructed, or began operations.
Source. 2004, 83:2, eff. May 7, 2004.

We have had our current location since 1973, when all that was around us was forest and farms. About 10-15 years ago a developer built several new subdivisions beside our range. The new owners of one of the houses tried to sue us but found out they couldn't. So they tried to sue the developer instead for failing to disclose the noise issue. Too bad for them that in the mass of paperwork they signed was a document acknowledging that there was a range next door. We filed an amicus brief, and the signed noise issue paperwork is on our website for members to have a good laugh at.

One of our new neighbors also tried to obstruct our entrance when we were having work done. She now has a restraining order against her.

 

[Maggot]

I guess that could help but what are the guys who shoot nonsuppressible firearms supposed to do?

And that wouldnt solve anything becuase it not about the noise, its about taking our rights. They'd just find some other bogus BS to throw.

 

[Maggot]

New Hampshire did something about this 20 years ago:

159-B:1 Exemption. – Notwithstanding the provisions of RSA 644:2, III(a) or any other law to the contrary, no person who owns, operates, or uses a shooting range in this state shall be subject to civil liability or criminal prosecution in any matter relating to noise or noise pollution, provided that the owners of the range are in compliance with any applicable noise control ordinances in existence at the time the range was established, was constructed, or began operations.
Source. 2004, 83:2, eff. May 7, 2004.

We have had our current location since 1973, when all that was around us was forest and farms. About 10-15 years ago a developer built several new subdivisions beside our range. The new owners of one of the houses tried to sue us but found out they couldn't. So they tried to sue the developer instead for failing to disclose the noise issue. Too bad for them that in the mass of paperwork they signed was a document acknowledging that there was a range next door. We filed an amicus brief, and the signed noise issue paperwork is on our website for members to have a good laugh at.

One of our new neighbors also tried to obstruct our entrance when we were having work done. She now has a restraining order against her.

Heres a question for @sirhrmechanic . Since Vermont and NH are side by side, and NH has great gun laws, or lack thereof, how did things get so fucked up in Vermont. Seems like the folks would be of a similar mindset.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Heres a question for @sirhrmechanic . Since Vermont and NH are side by side, and NH has great gun laws, or lack thereof, how did things get so fucked up in Vermont. Seems like the folks would be of a similar mindset.

Progressive legislature 100 percent. Huge money paid by Bloomberg.

VT can’t be allowed to be the safest state in the union with no gun laws. It must have rigid gun laws to be safe. So people can’t point to it and say “what about Vermont.”

Big red flag to liberals. Crush all freedoms in VT. Old saying “As goes VT so goes the nation.” Watch out! Commies are everywhere.

Sirhr

 

[lash]

Town my range is in has decided the perfect place for the new town well would be on the range property.

Range has been in existence since 1920 or so. It's a rural area with lots of water opportunities.

Range has hired a lawyer and it will be a long slog.

Club money vs tax payer money.

Lol. Not laughing at you but laughing at the logic of putting a major well on property that has been used by people flinging lead and zinc into it for over 100 years.

That is purely just a move to shut down your range. People suck.

 

[slowworm]

Progressive legislature 100 percent. Huge money paid by Bloomberg.

VT can’t be allowed to be the safest state in the union with no gun laws. It must have rigid gun laws to be safe. So people can’t point to it and say “what about Vermont.”

Big red flag to liberals. Crush all freedoms in VT. Old saying “As goes VT so goes the nation.” Watch out! Commies are everywhere.

Sirhr

NH has a lower property crime rate than VT, a lower violent crime rate than VT and a lower homicide rate that VT. It should be "What about NH?"

All Violent Crimes - NH 146.4 VT 173.4
Homicide - NH 0.9 VT 2.2
All Property Crimes NH 1098.9 VT 1217

VT has always had bit of a "Hippie Paradise" reputation that has made it more susceptible to NY imports that have made the liberalism worse.

NH has had an influx of folks from Mass, but round where I am at least we seem to have had more conservative types then liberals, so the balance of things hasn't changed too much. It has shifted a bit left, but not catastrophically so. That said, I do see a long slow march leftward and suspect that 20 years hence we will be approaching VT as it is today.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

NH has a lower property crime rate than VT, a lower violent crime rate than VT and a lower homicide rate that VT. It should be "What about NH?"

All Violent Crimes - NH 146.4 VT 173.4
Homicide - NH 0.9 VT 2.2
All Property Crimes NH 1098.9 VT 1217

VT has always had bit of a "Hippie Paradise" reputation that has made it more susceptible to NY imports that have made the liberalism worse.

NH has had an influx of folks from Mass, but round where I am at least we seem to have had more conservative types then liberals, so the balance of things hasn't changed too much. It has shifted a bit left, but not catastrophically so. That said, I do see a long slow march leftward and suspect that 20 years hence we will be approaching VT as it is today.

Historically VT had lower... but we have a giant drug problem now and our cities are full of scumbag gangbangers here to prey on the college students and the hippies. Free drugs... shoot-up dens... revolving door courts for violent crime... massive 'transplant' immigrant and urban population... Burlington looks like Portland. DIsgusting. Was the safest most beautiful small city in America until leftists got ahold of it. Aka Bernie, Dean, Kunin and the other commies.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Hattrick]

In most cases when the try to shut down these ranges it’s a land grab. Need the right Lawyer too win it