First time annealing

[chuckshoots]

Hey guys,

Tried annealing some brass today and used the method of using a socket on a drill and a propane torch and dropping them into water.
I used some scrapped cases as practice for the timing and other variables and got to what looks to be pretty consistent and satisfactory.

what do you guys think? I am tempted to say they could use another second under the flame (I am doing it at 6 seconds for this .308 Win brass)

thanks

 

[chefcam864]

6 seconds sounds about right. I spin mine into the flame until the necks just begin to turn maroon, (not orange!). With Win brass this usually takes about 5-6 seconds. Afterwards, I spin them in a damp paper towel quickly to cool. You really shouldn't have to quench a 308 case in water, but it won't hurt anything to do so. However, I would probably use distilled water to help avoid galvanic corrosion, which can start fairly quickly.

I don't usually get nearly that much color on mine. They usually turn a slight pinkish color, which is what they're supposed to do. The blues and greys you see on Lapua and military brass are from a process that happens over several months. You should not try to heat brass until you see those colors, because by the time you start to see that your brass will be cooked.

Here is a link to one of the better articles on the subject:
The Art and Science of Annealing

 

[X-fan]

Do it in the dark and DO NOT let the cases turn red.

 

[Dogtown]

Do it in the dark and DO NOT let the cases turn red.

Agreed, if you're going to do it by hand like that, in the dark you have a better chance of tracking the glow before it turns "oh shit I just ruined my brass" red.

 

[chefcam864]

Agreed, if you're going to do it by hand like that, in the dark you have a better chance of tracking the glow before it turns "oh shit I just ruined my brass" red.

There is a very fine line between annealing and "oh shit I just ruined my brass." It's scary to watch some of the videos on youtube...

This is a good exqample of what NOT to do
How I Anneal Brass - YouTube

I swear he must have been trying to melt his cases!

 

[P7id10t]

Holy mackerel! I kept waiting for him to pull out the silver solder.

 

[chefcam864]

^LMFAO! I almost crapped myself when I first saw that vid. I'll bet the water was boiling by the time he finished all those cases.

Besides sharing his favorite method of destroying brass, he also proffered some bunk information about "tempering" brass. Brass is NOT steel! They have different molecular properties, and respond differently to heat. It's true that if you heat steel and rapidly cool it, it hardens. It actually hardens to the point of becoming brittle. However, the ONLY way to harden brass is to work it. Heating and rapidly cooling does not temper brass. All the water does is cool things off. As I said above, there is really no need to que ch a case the size of a 308, but there's no foul in it either.

 

[AZ.noob]

Looks good
Not to beat a dead horse, but there is risk in overheating them. On my Winchester-head stamped 308 cases, I find 4 seconds to be about right. For thicker walled cases (FC, LC, etc) 5-6 seconds is about right as well depending on the torch.

 

[High Binder]

^^ LMFAO on the video. So many people are so clueless as to shooting/reloading.

 

[Pointblanktx]

^^ you prolly cannot feel any neck tension at all when seating a bullet in those cases. ^^

 

[Ultraman550]

Any way Shankster can do one of his private eye Google searches to see if this guy is still alive? I'm about to start annealing and thank god I saw this thread.

 

[jwp6114]

I do 7 sec on Lapua 308 brass, no water, checked against tempelaqu, base is fine, brings them back to 1/2 moa at 600.

Anneal every other firing

 

[chuckshoots]

wow that video is scary, even with a few searches and quick reads you find out that what he is doing is very wrong and dangerous. Thanks for the input guys, and hopefully the guy who made that video hasn't fallen victim to his practices.

 

[Bruno]

Good info here, I was a little worried myself to start annealing. The article posted by chefcam has some good stuff in it, so does the sticky on brass prep.

 

[jonesy]

I don't see what the danger of "over annealing" cases is. Obviously what the guy in that video is doing is going to lead to a head separation, but over annealing the neck/shoulder, unless you're melting the case, shouldn't cause any danger when fired (that I can see).

When I anneal my cases, I get them to a dark orange color (I do it in a dark room at night). Would you all consider that "over annealing"? I would really like to know, as I don't understand what the danger is unless you're annealing the case head.

 

[jonesy]

I don't see what the danger of "over annealing" cases is. Obviously what the guy in that video is doing is going to lead to a head separation, but over annealing the neck/shoulder, unless you're melting the case, shouldn't cause any danger when fired (that I can see).

When I anneal my cases, I get them to a dark orange color (I do it in a dark room at night). Would you all consider that "over annealing"? I would really like to know, as I don't understand what the danger is unless you're annealing the case head.

EDIT: The dude in the video is torching them in water... shouldn't weaken the case head at all.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I'm just glad I can't get a STD yet from the internet.

 

[High Binder]

I don't see what the danger of "over annealing" cases is. Obviously what the guy in that video is doing is going to lead to a head separation, but over annealing the neck/shoulder, unless you're melting the case, shouldn't cause any danger when fired (that I can see).

When I anneal my cases, I get them to a dark orange color (I do it in a dark room at night). Would you all consider that "over annealing"? I would really like to know, as I don't understand what the danger is unless you're annealing the case head.

There's no such thing as "over annealing," you either anneal or you don't, it's all relative to the desired outcome but I'm splitting hairs because it's the industry I work in. Annealing is all about giving whatever metal your working with a specific property. In your case, you're probably over doing it and making your brass far weaker than it should be as compared to properly annealed brass. In a nutshell, the hotter and longer you brass is exposed to high heat the weaker it's going to be once it cools. There is NO set recipe for annealing brass. I can anneal brass at 200 degrees or 4million degrees, the real important factor is time. In the case of our brass you're generally going to heat it for 5-9 seconds depending on the heat source. With one propane torch, you're going to heat the brass for ~7 seconds and if you're in a dark room you'll see a maroon colored glow appear, anymore than that and you've applied too much heat and/or too much time. There is NO reason to quench, heat dissipates from the thin hollow case so quickly that the web is never in any danger and it has absolutely ZERO effect on the case. Quenching is usually done to lock in a specific pattern and it usually has to do with the carbon arrangement which isn't a factor in our brass. A lot of people over-think it and make it out to be something it's not. Take your time and work up a consistent procedure with the above in mind and you'll be just fine.

 

[jonesy]

There's no such thing as "over annealing," you either anneal or you don't, it's all relative to the desired outcome but I'm splitting hairs because it's the industry I work in. Annealing is all about giving whatever metal your working with a specific property. In your case, you're probably over doing it and making your brass far weaker than it should be as compared to properly annealed brass. In a nutshell, the hotter and longer you brass is exposed to high heat the weaker it's going to be once it cools. There is NO set recipe for annealing brass. I can anneal brass at 200 degrees or 4million degrees, the real important factor is time. In the case of our brass you're generally going to heat it for 5-9 seconds depending on the heat source. With one propane torch, you're going to heat the brass for ~7 seconds and if you're in a dark room you'll see a maroon colored glow appear, anymore than that and you've applied too much heat and/or too much time. There is NO reason to quench, heat dissipates from the thin hollow case so quickly that the web is never in any danger and it has absolutely ZERO effect on the case. Quenching is usually done to lock in a specific pattern and it usually has to do with the carbon arrangement which isn't a factor in our brass. A lot of people over-think it and make it out to be something it's not. Take your time and work up a consistent procedure with the above in mind and you'll be just fine.

I know exactly what annealing is. Thank you for the explanation though. My question was, if you make the neck too weak by annealing, what could be "dangerous" about that?

 

[Sniper Uncle]

I know exactly what annealing is. Thank you for the explanation though. My question was, if you make the neck too weak by annealing, what could be "dangerous" about that?

I'm not getting that it is "dangerous", per se, from any of the sources I have read. The trouble with "over" annealing is that the brass is softened excessively, and will not give good neck tension for holding the bullets. Thus, you will not get the accuracy improvements you wanted.
Where it could be an issue of safety might be in a semi-auto or in a heavy recoil rifle if the bullets slipped due to in-adequate neck tension. This could lead to feed problems, or to a bullet jammed in the lands, maybe.

 

[jonesy]

I'm not getting that it is "dangerous", per se, from any of the sources I have read. The trouble with "over" annealing is that the brass is softened excessively, and will not give good neck tension for holding the bullets. Thus, you will not get the accuracy improvements you wanted.
Where it could be an issue of safety might be in a semi-auto or in a heavy recoil rifle if the bullets slipped due to in-adequate neck tension. This could lead to feed problems, or to a bullet jammed in the lands, maybe.

So the dude in the video isn't being "risky"? A couple of the posts here seemed concerned about his health because of his annealing practices. That's what I wanted to clear up.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

So the dude in the video isn't being "risky"? A couple of the posts here seemed concerned about his health because of his annealing practices. That's what I wanted to clear up.

I am not by any means an expert in annealing, but having said that, I have read several articles on annealing, many post here on the hide, and tried working with it some myself. The gist of what I get from the research I have done is that when you over anneal, you can "ruin" the brass by making it too soft. This is most likely to give problems with neck tensions being too light, and causing bullet slippage from recoil.
It could cause a max COAL to change and cause a bullet to be jammed in the lands, with attendant pressure increases to possibly be dangerous...
I haven't read anywhere that over annealing at the neck will cause other problems---but I don't want to find out the hard way either.

In this article The Art and Science of Annealing which I have read a couple times, and it was referenced in a post earlier in this thread, the author talks about the dangers of annealing the entire case---very not cool!

I quote a couple paragraphs here, relating to the danger aspect.

"Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.

Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

I once heard a tale of a gentleman who placed his brass on a cookie tray and placed the whole batch in an oven at 650 degrees for over an hour. He wasn't hurt--at least seriously. His attitude toward annealing is very negative.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over its entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation, stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets (I mean REALLY enlarged), and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length."

Hope that answers your question.

 

[jonesy]

I am not by any means an expert in annealing, but having said that, I have read several articles on annealing, many post here on the hide, and tried working with it some myself. The gist of what I get from the research I have done is that when you over anneal, you can "ruin" the brass by making it too soft. This is most likely to give problems with neck tensions being too light, and causing bullet slippage from recoil.
It could cause a max COAL to change and cause a bullet to be jammed in the lands, with attendant pressure increases to possibly be dangerous...
I haven't read anywhere that over annealing at the neck will cause other problems---but I don't want to find out the hard way either.

In this article The Art and Science of Annealing which I have read a couple times, and it was referenced in a post earlier in this thread, the author talks about the dangers of annealing the entire case---very not cool!

I quote a couple paragraphs here, relating to the danger aspect.

"Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.

Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

I once heard a tale of a gentleman who placed his brass on a cookie tray and placed the whole batch in an oven at 650 degrees for over an hour. He wasn't hurt--at least seriously. His attitude toward annealing is very negative.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over its entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation, stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets (I mean REALLY enlarged), and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length."

Hope that answers your question.

Yeah, I've read the article a few times myself. That does help though. Basically, I just need to keep experimenting with different annealing amounts on my case necks to find what gives me the best accuracy/case life. While doing this, though, just make sure I don't anneal the case heads AT ALL.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Yeah, I've read the article a few times myself. That does help though. Basically, I just need to keep experimenting with different annealing amounts on my case necks to find what gives me the best accuracy/case life. While doing this, though, just make sure I don't anneal the case heads AT ALL.

Thanks for the reply.

Correct. An easy way to do this is by using a deep socket chucked in a drill. The deep socket will only allow the neck, shoulder, and about 1/4" more to be exposed, thus keeping the flame from directly heating any lower. I drop them into water, not to quench them, but to arrest the heating process, to be sure that the case head area is not heated much at all, (a couple hundred degrees for a brief exposure will not hurt the head or lower case area) and in my mind it also helps to prevent over-annealing, as the heat is dissipated quickly just after i get the desired temperature.

There are many opinions on this, but I find it works the best I can do. Always open to new techniques if someone can offer credible evidence to the new technique being better.

 

[X-fan]

There's no such thing as "over annealing," you either anneal or you don't, it's all relative to the desired outcome but I'm splitting hairs because it's the industry I work in. Annealing is all about giving whatever metal your working with a specific property. In your case, you're probably over doing it and making your brass far weaker than it should be as compared to properly annealed brass. In a nutshell, the hotter and longer you brass is exposed to high heat the weaker it's going to be once it cools. There is NO set recipe for annealing brass. I can anneal brass at 200 degrees or 4million degrees, the real important factor is time. In the case of our brass you're generally going to heat it for 5-9 seconds depending on the heat source. With one propane torch, you're going to heat the brass for ~7 seconds and if you're in a dark room you'll see a maroon colored glow appear, anymore than that and you've applied too much heat and/or too much time. There is NO reason to quench, heat dissipates from the thin hollow case so quickly that the web is never in any danger and it has absolutely ZERO effect on the case. Quenching is usually done to lock in a specific pattern and it usually has to do with the carbon arrangement which isn't a factor in our brass. A lot of people over-think it and make it out to be something it's not. Take your time and work up a consistent procedure with the above in mind and you'll be just fine.

You are right...except we don't want to fully anneal the neck....just make it a bit more pliable so it doesn't split, yet we still want it to spring back for easy extraction.
Fully annealed brass has almost no spring back in compression or tension. Fully annealed cases don't want to extract from the chamber nor do they hold bullets in place any more.

Run a torch on a neck until it goes cherry red then keep it cherry for a while. Seat a bullet then try pushing the bullet in with your fingers and tell me what you feel?

 

[Boogaloo]

I anneal 308 brass using 700f Tempilaq. The time changes each time I do it, so I always do a Tempilaq "time" test on 3 cases to get my time down for each run. So far this system has really worked well for me, and I can do 100 cases in about 20 minutes... Have a look:

 

[DroidSniper]

+for tempilaq. I use 700 degree as well.

 

[biffj]

You can also watch the flame color. When you get a slight green tint back off. You can do it in the light and not worry about overdoing it. Overheating or heating too long changes the properties of the brass by burning zinc out of the material. That changes hardness, strength and other properties. That is why its not a good idea to heat cherry red. When you see a bit of green in the flame you're at a good temp and you can quench or not.

Frank

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Just read another article, by Ken Howell, who wrote a book on case forming and design....

24hourcampfire.com - "Annealing Cases" (Ken Howell)

 

[Bruno]

Good article, seems to help understand the process a bit. I really like hearing different methods, and taking what I like and experimenting to find out what works best for me. Keep 'em coming.

 

[jwp6114]

I have good luck just annealing 308 Lapua for 8sec each. Just what ever amount of time you choose, be consistent from case to case.

 

[chuckshoots]

Boogaloo thanks for the video, that is a solid video compared to some I have seen perusing the interwebs.

I am going to get some 700 tempilaq and set up my drill and torch in such a way as to maximize the consistency case to case. Hopefully it works out well, but I basically know in the future there is an annealing machine, because new stuff like that is always sweet.

 

[Creature]

I know exactly what annealing is. Thank you for the explanation though. My question was, if you make the neck too weak by annealing, what could be "dangerous" about that?

What is dangerous about applying heat for an extended period to the neck is that it radiates to the body of the case. Not to mention that, on the water quenching annealing video, when he put the torch on the neck of one case it was directly on the body of the next one in line. I wonder how many people have been injured from that video...

Today I did some .308 Win brass at 4-5 seconds a piece and .338 Lapua manufacture brass at close to 10 seconds. Does that jive with what you guys are doing?

 

[chefcam864]

This may be a silly question, but how does one go about using a deep-well socket with a drill? Is there an adaptor? I feel kinda dumb for not having figured this out, but it does happen from time to time.

 

[Creature]

Buy a $10 electric screwdriver then get the adapter that fits to said sockets. To find the right sockets just take your brass to the hardware store and find some that they will fit into, like in my pic. You're GTG. Less than $20 and pretty fast.

 

[M40_A1]

12-point or 6-point sockets? Are there any pros and cons on this?

 

[Creature]

6 point IIRC. No cons that i can think of. Once you get a rhythm down you can get going pretty fast. My .338 Lapua bit doesn't mate up that well and wobbles a bit. I hold my finger at the base of the socket and it steadies it out. I usually just do a 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, etc count and I've found it to be pretty consistent. The socket also kind of acts like a heat sink in that you can tell exactly where the annealing stops right underneath the shoulder. I just set the torch on my bench and put the spinning case into the flame and then dump it from the socket into a cardboard box. I use my other hand to steady the screwdriver while it's in the flame.

IIRC the highpower world record holder that the 6mmbr article above cites does his annealing this way only with a drill. I'd like to get a fancy annealing machine but I'd like extra components even more.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

12-point or 6-point sockets? Are there any pros and cons on this?

I think that "Impact" sockets----not a brand, but a heavy walled socket made for impact drivers---are a good idea. They come in 6 point mostly. They are heavier, and act as a good heat sink to keep the heat from transferring down to the lower wall and head area of the brass. You can put the heat on the case even a little onto the shoulder area and not worry about transference as much to the case areas you do not want to anneal. I also use a "second" count to get consistency----One, two, three.... to about 7 or 8 on my 30.06 works well.
I personally like to put the finished ones in a bucket with a little water to be sure that the heat travels no farther after I am done applying it.

 

[Jedi]

I finally broke down after much research and started annealing, I bought a bench source machine
New Case Neck Annealing Machine

I wanted consistency afforded by machine vs variable of hand held, slow count.
The vid is just funny but people do it, Brass does NOT require quenching period
Maroon is the color you seek

 

[QuietShootr]

Holy shit, that guy is RETARDED.

There is a very fine line between annealing and "oh shit I just ruined my brass." It's scary to watch some of the videos on youtube...

This is a good exqample of what NOT to do
How I Anneal Brass - YouTube

I swear he must have been trying to melt his cases!