First time at 1000yards. Tell me what you think is the problem.

[Olive]

This was my first time at 1000 yards and have been shooting for almost 2 years now so please be gentle since I am still new to this. Started off with a beautiful morning 55 degrees winds were 10-12 mph humidity was at 65%. Started at 300yds then 500, 700, and finally 1000 . Once dialed in I was consistently hitting my target until I got to the 1000 (7hits of 40). Funny thing was I figured once I would dial in I would be as consistent as the rest but they were all over the place, to the left, to the right, high, low. Mind you no one was having much luck and there were experienced shooters on the line that morning. I have thoughts as to why but nothing concrete and would like to get some of your opinions.

I'm using an AIAX 6.5 Creedmoor with factory Hornady 140 AMAX.

 

[JByrd]

wind, wind vs. terrain features, factory ammo not hand loads tuned to the gun. you were prob doing a fine job running the rifle the factors mentioned were just givin ya the business. it gets a lil squirrely out there sometimes. the good news is your platform is about as good as it gets to work off of. start reloading and keep shooting watching and recording data.

 

[Sako man]

7/40 is not the greatest as you imagine.

What elevation were you at? Air density at low elevations could explain your accuracy issues at 1000, I'll explain. In this I am guessing it's possible your 140s were loosing steam and starting to tumble? This would be rare with factory loads. Were you shooting reloads or factory stuff? Could have been weak reloads? Im really guessing at this point so a little more info could help. Good rifle, those are usually laser cannons. What optic were you using? There are so many possible reasons but it really sounds like the 140 were running out of steam. I have had this happen with 155 Scenars that were underpowered.


Lastly could be your trigger technique, any slight movement to the left or right with trigger pull has a profound effect at 1000.

 

[bogeybrown]

Did you check parallax?

I hate to even mention coriolis, but if you were shooting due east or west it does play a role at a grand.

 

[Ro_Bird]

Well for starters what size target were you shooting at? 7 out of 40 on a tennis ball is one thing, 7 out of 40 on the broad side of a barn is another if you know what I'm saying.

Next question would be how good are you at reading wind? This is probably your number one issue. Can you stay within in +/-1 mph? Depending on your target size it might not take much to push you off target. Also remember the wind most often is never blowing steady. Even in the time from when you determine wind value and apply a solution the wind can change if you're not quick enough. You should also make sure you attempting to read the wind along the actual path of your bullet. Depending on the terrain your max ord. could be 20+ feet above the ground, thus a good deal higher than your wind indicators. General you'll find (terrain dependent) that winds at altitude will move a little faster.

Another thing to wonder about is your extreme spread. Have you measured it by chance? If it's on the higher end of things it could be giving you some good vertical spread.

Of course there are nasty things that began to pop up at 1000 like spin drift and such but I doubt those are at the core of you issues. My money is on the wind.

 

[Olive]

Did you check parallax?

I hate to even mention coriolis, but if you were shooting due east or west it does play a role at a grand.

Yes parallax was checked and adjusted accordingly, and coriolis was not a factor since range South to North. Thanks for chiming in, Cheers!

 

[40xs]

1000yd shooting is more demanding of you than 300-500. Your execution must be flawless or it will show up on target. Also, what was the wind? if your hits were dispersed right and left it well could be that the wind was either head on or tail wind which is the worst wind to time your release of the shot. Wind does not blow in a straight line, it zig-zags, however it is not that critical from cross winds, but head and tail winds will place your shot either to the left or the right of your aiming point. I don't shoot a 6.5 creed so I'm not familiar with the terminal bal. of that round at 1000yds. Could it be you are exceeding the capabilities of your chosen bullet for that distance? I would think that the 6.5 would be a 1000yd shooter. It sounds more like the wind is kicking your butt, especially at 12mph.

 

[Olive]

7/40 is not the greatest as you imagine.

What elevation were you at? Air density at low elevations could explain your accuracy issues at 1000, I'll explain. In this I am guessing it's possible your 140s were loosing steam and starting to tumble? This would be rare with factory loads. Were you shooting reloads or factory stuff? Could have been weak reloads? Im really guessing at this point so a little more info could help. Good rifle, those are usually laser cannons. What optic were you using? There are so many possible reasons but it really sounds like the 140 were running out of steam. I have had this happen with 155 Scenars that were underpowered.


Lastly could be your trigger technique, any slight movement to the left or right with trigger pull has a profound effect at 1000.

I was at "Sea Level" or very near.....Manatee Range in Florida. I was using Factory Ammo "Hornady 140 AMAX". My scope is a March FX 5-40 which I am very happy and comfortable with. I am always working to better my technique from trigger to breathing and still have a ways to go, even though I am getting better. I decided to go past 100 yards when I started shooting ragged hole groups with this setup at a 100, which was recently. Thank you for your time.

 

[bogeybrown]

Yes parallax was checked and adjusted accordingly, and coriolis was not a factor since range South to North. Thanks for chiming in, Cheers!

No worries, I figured most would hit wind, ammo, etc so I went somewhere else. Plus, the mention of coriolis and spin drift tends to elicit a collective groan when they're thrown around, so I couldn't pass the opportunity to toss coriolis out there

 

[Bill Larson]

.. my opinion would be:unless you got that particular bullet going 2950.....+/-..50 ft/sec. you`re wasting ammo.

 

[Olive]

1000yd shooting is more demanding of you than 300-500. Your execution must be flawless or it will show up on target. Also, what was the wind? if your hits were dispersed right and left it well could be that the wind was either head on or tail wind which is the worst wind to time your release of the shot. Wind does not blow in a straight line, it zig-zags, however it is not that critical from cross winds, but head and tail winds will place your shot either to the left or the right of your aiming point. I don't shoot a 6.5 creed so I'm not familiar with the terminal bal. of that round at 1000yds. Could it be you are exceeding the capabilities of your chosen bullet for that distance? I would think that the 6.5 would be a 1000yd shooter. It sounds more like the wind is kicking your butt, especially at 12mph.

As I've been reading, more than shooting, about the 6.5 Creedmore I can't believe it is the problem since since I've only heard good things about it including terms like "Wind Cheater" with competitors even using the factory Hornady 140 AMAX as their "got to" ammo at comps. Again, the biggest problem here is definitely me, since I need advice at what the problem might be, even though my thoughts were "Wind". I said 10-12 mile winds but that was just a guess. What made me guess that was the 3 huge wind cones which were, at the majority of the times, completely erect with winds east to west(my right to left). Also the barriers surrounding the range I found to be higher than other ranges, maybe thirty feet high which might cause wind to change speeds or swirl, like winds through a valley. Now, again, this is just a thought and if you need to laugh at that please go ahead as I am not sure that would be the case. Nevertheless I appreciate you chiming in, Thanks.

 

[Olive]

.. my opinion would be:unless you got that particular bullet going 2950.....+/-..50 ft/sec. you`re wasting ammo.

Bill, Please elaborate. It is factory ammo Hornady 140 AMAX, shouldn't it do what they say it does? What would be my options if it doesn't? And why 2950? Don't mean to riddle you with an onslaught. Thank you

 

[zenbiker]

I was at "Sea Level" or very near.....Manatee Range in Florida. I was using Factory Ammo "Hornady 140 AMAX". My scope is a March FX 5-40 which I am very happy and comfortable with. I am always working to better my technique from trigger to breathing and still have a ways to go, even though I am getting better. I decided to go past 100 yards when I started shooting ragged hole groups with this setup at a 100, which was recently. Thank you for your time.

OK, I think you're doing pretty good - for the cartridge you're shooting. I haven't run the numbers but I\m going to guess your bullet is going subsonic somewhere around 850 yards - a ballistic profile similar to a .308 shooting 168 SMKs. When the bullet transitions to subsonic, it becomes very unstable in flight. In fact, it's not really 'flying' as much as it is dropping, almost as if you had dropped it out of your hand onto the floor; think of an airplane making a final approach on landing and you'll get an idea of the bullet's attitude in the terminal portion of it's flight. Shooting at 1000 yards, your bullet is probably 15+ft above your line of sight before coming down into your target. When a bullet is in this subsonic phase, it can skip off of different layers of air density - you mentioned you were shooting in the morning, a time when thermoclines form before the sun hits the air and starts winds moving, mixing these layers of air up. There again, the wind is not your friend either; sort of no break any way you look at it.

Now, let's consider your shooting conditions. Sea Level= dense air = Lower speed of sound = earlier subsonic transition. Your bullet has more resistance in flight than if you were shooting at higher altitudes. Humidity was modestly high,and that was in your favor since humid air is less dense than dry air (yeah, it took a pilot to explain that one to me). Temp was cool at 55 degrees; again, denser air = not your friend.

I'll check Honady's website and run some numbers on the ammo you were using and see if all this rambling is right, but I think its a case of a good shooter and a good rig against too much mother nature.


ADDENDUM: I just checked the Hornady's info for their 6.5 Creedmoor loaded with a 140 grain AMax. The bullet has a modest BC (G1) of .585 and leaves their 24" gun's barrel at about 2710 fps. At 500 yards, the velocity has dropped to 1995 fps; but here it gets interesting. At 1000 yds the bullet should still be moving at about 1400 fps , well above the speed of sound, but wind drift for a full value wind is 7 inches/mph of wind; since the cartridge is apparently capable of reaching this distance while still supersonic, I'm going to guess the wind is beating your bullet around out past 800 yards; the only thing I can tell you to fix that is shoot, read, and study.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[bogeybrown]

Olive, what barrel length are you using on the Creedmoor so we can take a better guess at your muzzle velocity (I'm assuming it hasn't been chrono'd).

 

[Deadshot2]

Here's a diagram that helps show what effects wind has on a bullet's impact on the target, all other factors being the same (proper position, trigger pull, etc).

Note that winds from the side not only cause the bullet to be moved left/right, but up/down as well due to the bullet's spin. The longer the distance to the target the more the effect.

Almost as important as the "Hits" are the "Misses". You need a good spotter to tell you where the misses are so you can make the necessary adjustments. Kind of hard to correct if you don't know whether the bullet went wide left, wide right, or turned "gopher" 20 yards ahead of the target.

 

[bacamike]

I am just assuming you are spotting for yourself and trying to make corrections on what you are seeing thru the rifle scope. As a shooter new to 1000 it is very easy to over correct on what you think you saw.

Mike

 

[Olive]

Olive, what barrel length are you using on the Creedmoor so we can take a better guess at your muzzle velocity (I'm assuming it hasn't been chrono'd).

It is a 24" Bartlein(1-8) and the rifle is from MileHigh. It has NOT been chrono'd.

 

[milo 2.0]

Olive, you're beating yourself up for no reason. Yes, your hit ratio wasn't the best, but there's been a lot worse. Wind can be and is tricky, even to the best shooters. Given your experience, you did fine. Wait till a calmer day and try again, then report to us.
Your right to left wind had your bullet hanging high left, and when it subsided your bullet went low right, one needs to know when to pull the trigger, and a spotter, who knows what's up is invaluable.
Wait till you shoot full value, left to right winds, worse yet, bullet goes low right, and for wind speed it's not a linear measurement as opposed to R-L. And a tail wind fishtailing from behind you can humble some of the best. Like I said, knowing when to shoot, what signs to look for, mirage, wind flags, vegetation. If you miss left, rack another round immediately, hold right side and fire again, it does no good to shoot one shot every 3 minutes.
Today you can somewhat buy into success, with guns, scopes, tech advances, but only so far, time on the range shooting is the only way to become better. Wait for a nice day, and build some confidence!

 

[Olive]

I am just assuming you are spotting for yourself and trying to make corrections on what you are seeing thru the rifle scope. As a shooter new to 1000 it is very easy to over correct on what you think you saw.

Mike

Mike, I was my own spotter. The good thing was I was able to see hits as far away as 10 feet from the target, in all directions. The scope I used let me see this clearly as well as the target being surrounded by dry earth that left a nice puff of smoke. I dialed in distance and wind until my first hit, which was my third shot, the follow shot was a miss a couple feet away to the right(if I'm not mistaken), follow shot after that with no adjustment was a miss a couple feet away in the opposite direction. Started to keep track of the wind cones at that point. Made a couple of adjustments but things were pretty much the same after that. Up, down, hit, left, right, up down etc... After 40 rounds I felt like it was a waste of time at that point and decided my next trip was without wind so I can take it out of the equation. Thanks for chiming in.

 

[Olive]

I was considering calling a local reloader and asking him to help me develop the perfect ammo for my rifle which in turn I would start learning to reload what worked out best. But after listening to all of you I think I'll stick the the factory 140 AMAX till I get several more chances with optimal conditions before doing that. Unless of course you believe there might be a better course of action.

There is nothing like having a million rounds of experience, and then some, at the end of your fingertips. You guys are AWESOME!!!!!

 

[milo 2.0]

The more you shoot, and the more locations you shoot at will help greatly. Wait till you shoot at targets that are positioned on a slight rise, or a man sized target 4-6 foot off the ground, and your bullets are impacting what looks low center and then laugh at yourself as to what route you took to get on target! Target height makes quite a diff also, the closer to the ground the easier to spot.
On one range I shoot at, we have a full size ISPC at 1442 yards, in a bowl on the side of a hill, it's easier to hit, even on a windy day, than the 1000 yard target, just because spotting your misses is so absolute, if it's high, you're shooting high, same for low, left, right.

Learn to use density altitude, and what a cloud rolling over you and the target can do to your vertical.

 

[milo 2.0]

I was considering calling a local reloader and asking him to help me develop the perfect ammo for my rifle which in turn I would start learning to reload what worked out best. But after listening to all of you I think I'll stick the the factory 140 AMAX till I get several more chances with optimal conditions before doing that. Unless of course you believe there might be a better course of action.

There is nothing like having a million rounds of experience, and then some, at the end of your fingertips. You guys are AWESOME!!!!!

I'm for the handload thing, you can custom tailor ammo for the gun, not saying factory wont suffice, but they make it to shoot satisfactory in thousands of guns.
Case in point, I just set back a 6.5x47 Lapua, 1600 rds, well due to these shortages I switched powders, made a load, taking press and dies to range with pre loaded rds, just had to seat to depth, well it was windy. Shot groups at 300 yards, got one that went 3/4", ok, good enough, seated bullets there, and documented my findings. The load fell to shit at 700 yards, and I ran out of rounds. So I load more, went out again, shot great to 800, then fell on it's face again. Well, after reviewing stuff, yes my group was ok, but it was all vertical spread, so at those distances, it really never stood a chance. Back to the drawing board, and pulling 50 bullets!

 

[Olive]

I'm for the handload thing, you can custom tailor ammo for the gun, not saying factory wont suffice, but they make it to shoot satisfactory in thousands of guns.
Case in point, I just set back a 5.4x48 Lapua, 1600 rds, well due to these shortages I switched powders, made a load, taking press and dies to range with pre loaded rds, just had to seat to depth, well it was windy. Shot groups at 300 yards, got one that went 3/4", ok, good enough, seated bullets there, and documented my findings. The load fell to shit at 700 yards, and I ran out of rounds. So I load more, went out again, shot great to 800, then fell on it's face again. Well, after reviewing stuff, yes my group was ok, but it was all vertical spread, so at those distances, it really never stood a chance. Back to the drawing board, and pulling 50 bullets!

So with all said, Practice, Development, Equipment selection....etc., without patients and perseverance it means nothing.

 

[milo 2.0]

Holy shit, I guess I invented a new round, 5.4x48 Lapua, hope they don't get mad at me!

 

[Olive]

One keystroke to the left too far, that's all.

 

[riffraff]

Milo -

Great info. I am relatively new to long range, so wondering..... You said:

"Your right to left wind had your bullet hanging high left, and when it subsided your bullet went low right...
Wait till you shoot full value, left to right winds, worse yet, bullet goes low right, and for wind speed it's not a linear measurement as opposed to R-L."


Do you have any 'rules of thumb' for how much a full value 90 degree wind goes high or low at 1000 yards? And for half-value headwinds/tailwinds? (Assuming something like a .260Rem or 6.5CM round). Anything would help.

Thanks

Buzz

 

[milo 2.0]

Riff,
Sorry, I don't. Don't get me wrong, but if I don't score a first round hit, I don't get to worked up about it. I'm not into competition shooting, doesn't mean I don't shoot against others for fun or money, just don't pay to shoot.
My rule, if I hit a MOA size target at 500 yards, but it's bottom right, wind full value L-R, if I go to 600 yards, or 700, and if I have a handle on the wind, and am confident of my up dope, I dope accordingly and hold upper left corner of the plate, usually this works, but a sudden gust and it's kaput!
Right to left is easier, for me anyway, the spin drift isn't doubling up on you, just hold right of center, the vertical isn't as extreme. One just has to store diff events in that hard drive between your ears, sooner or later you'll be in it again.

As for 6.5 stuff, yes because of lighter weight, the bullet can be deflected more than a heavy 7mm, or 30 cal, but the 6.5 won't display the hard down-right path of the bigger cals, because their not subject to as much spin drift.
The best way to see this, start out some calm morning, freshly painted targets, and put center hits on your plates, then wait for the wind to come up, now see where your bullet impacts, make sure to record your dopes for this. It's just like clockwork, and the chart Deadshot posted, maybe more extreme than that.

Hope I helped, no written formula here.

 

[riffraff]

Thanks, Milo!

 

[Sako man]

I was at "Sea Level" or very near.....Manatee Range in Florida. I was using Factory Ammo "Hornady 140 AMAX". My scope is a March FX 5-40 which I am very happy and comfortable with. I am always working to better my technique from trigger to breathing and still have a ways to go, even though I am getting better. I decided to go past 100 yards when I started shooting ragged hole groups with this setup at a 100, which was recently. Thank you for your time.

My thoughts still stand. Breaking things down.

A. you were hitting things out to 700 just fine, right? So not sure if wind is an issue. A fast flying 140 amax hitting steel at 700 will buck the wind fairly well at 1000. This is unless there was a wicked cross wind at the 1000 that is not present at the 700?

B. Coriolis and Spin drift are constant somewhat so after a few shots you would know where your landing. I don't think this is the issue.

C. plugging in some data with MV unknown and even on the lower end it looks like your still super sonic at 1000, so that might rule out tumble. I am using 2600 FPS MV, very low for that round. I'm betting you were going faster than that. Now if your pushing 2500 FPS then that's where things unfold for the 140 AMAX at 1000. I would rule things out by doing a chrono on that load.


I would gently clean out the carbon from the barrel, not the copper. Then get back out and see what you can do.

 

[Olive]

My thoughts still stand. Breaking things down.

A. you were hitting things out to 700 just fine, right? So not sure if wind is an issue. A fast flying 140 amax hitting steel at 700 will buck the wind fairly well at 1000. This is unless there was a wicked cross wind at the 1000 that is not present at the 700?

B. Coriolis and Spin drift are constant somewhat so after a few shots you would know where your landing. I don't think this is the issue.

C. plugging in some data with MV unknown and even on the lower end it looks like your still super sonic at 1000, so that might rule out tumble. I am using 2600 FPS MV, very low for that round. I'm betting you were going faster than that. Now if your pushing 2500 FPS then that's where things unfold for the 140 AMAX at 1000. I would rule things out by doing a chrono on that load.


I would gently clean out the carbon from the barrel, not the copper. Then get back out and see what you can do.

Thank you Sako man for your time. Since Manatee is a distance away it won't be very soon but I do plan to go out there ASAP and try it out again making sure the conditions are much better. I would like to take "wind" out of the equation but we'll see what Mother Nature has to offer when the time comes. I will let you know of my results. Again, Thank you for your time and help, Olive.

 

[seanhagerty]

My bet is on the wind shifting, as others have said.

Heres the trouble with long range shooting, the wind isnt consistent along the entire route. If is at different values all along the bullets path.
It is also constantly changing. Coupled together, this means that every few moments we need different corrections to impact the target.

I'm not good enough for first round hits consistently at distance. If I have a spotter, and they can see the impact, I can adjust off that but only until the wind values change again. Because of this, a rapid follow up shot is very important once you get the spot.

The more rapidly you can get that follow up shot, the closer the conditions will be to when the spotter shot was made. Assuming your technique is good, your rifle is solid and you have quality ammo, your likelihood of a hit goes up.

 

[zenbiker]

I was considering calling a local reloader and asking him to help me develop the perfect ammo for my rifle which in turn I would start learning to reload what worked out best. But after listening to all of you I think I'll stick the the factory 140 AMAX till I get several more chances with optimal conditions before doing that. Unless of course you believe there might be a better course of action.

There is nothing like having a million rounds of experience, and then some, at the end of your fingertips. You guys are AWESOME!!!!!

Now you're on a good path; just remember, reloading is a tricky business too with a lot of variables you can control to improve your accuracy. Just don't overload yourself with too much stuff at one time; a couple of hours with one box of good factory ammo and a spotter and the trigger time will give you the most important ingredient in the game: experience. I used to go to a local field and set up sporting clay disc; the 4" bright orange disc makes a great target. A spotter or good video cam to docment the conditions when you pull the trigger are invaluable for review, and I'm sure you're keeping a log to record your results; the more you shoot, the more you learn. Good luck to you and welcome to the club.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Deadshot2]

I dialed in distance and wind until my first hit, which was my third shot, the follow shot was a miss a couple feet away to the right(if I'm not mistaken), follow shot after that with no adjustment was a miss a couple feet away in the opposite direction.

Try to avoid a common mistake of excessive scope adjustments. I see shooters at the range regularly that will waste a couple of boxes of ammo, adjusting after every shot. Try to identify a "group", even if it's all misses, and then adjust the 'group'. Chasing singe shots with elevation and windage adjustments can not only wear out your patience and wallet, it may even wear out a scope

 

[SkunkWurks]

OP, because of the arrangement of the burms there you will see all sorts of changes in wind and your resulting impacts. Out to 565 things are ok but once you pass there and shoot along the parallel burms for the 1,000, making wind calls gets tougher. Keep in mind your projectile is flying above those burms (at least mine do) and is subject to different wind than ca be sighted from streamers on the ground. If you want, we can meet out there one day and make another run at it for you. I will spot for you. I live close.

 

[cali_tz]

one critical piece of info I didn't see in the OP was how well did the OP shoot at his first 300 yard target... was he 1 MOA or less? Is the 1000 yard target 1MOA or less in size?

unless you have that piece of info it's useless to try to debug the problem.

 

[Olive]

one critical piece of info I didn't see in the OP was how well did the OP shoot at his first 300 yard target... was he 1 MOA or less? Is the 1000 yard target 1MOA or less in size?

unless you have that piece of info it's useless to try to debug the problem.

cali_tz, I did not put up any targets to confirm the rifles accuracy that day. I was more set on hitting at a 1000. That being said from what I recall I was pleasantly surprised at the consistency the rifle was hitting steel all the way out to 700 which I had the option of a several sizes and the one I was aiming at had to be moa or less. Once I dialed in to the 700 I never missed, so the challenge factor, well let's say there was no challenge after the 10th shot. The 1000 after that was the challenge. SkunkWorks comment above you confirmed my belief that the burms were causing some of the problem especially on a windy day. I will be checking my MOA accuracy next time I go out there. As for the 100 yards I consistanly get 1/2 moa and less and have shot single hole groups of 5. We'll see next time I go out what it says at 3-5 and 700yards. Thanks for your help.

 

[cali_tz]

well that is fascinating data. I have seen similar and it's quite frustrating. You measure groups out to 500 and they are good. The question is due to ballistics being exponential, not linear over distance, is whether the 100-300 yard groups can be an indicator that that MOA grouping can be held out to, let's say, 1500 yards? Or does the MOA spread get larger as you go farther, e.g. go from sub MOA at 100 yards to several MOA at 1500 yards?

The more experience I have, the less sure I am of what is happening at 1000 and beyond.

I don't remember getting a good answer to this question from Litz's 1st edition book... maybe he talks about this in his second edition.

 

[agbm]

Here's a diagram that helps show what effects wind has on a bullet's impact on the target, all other factors being the same (proper position, trigger pull, etc).

Note that winds from the side not only cause the bullet to be moved left/right, but up/down as well due to the bullet's spin. The longer the distance to the target the more the effect.

Almost as important as the "Hits" are the "Misses". You need a good spotter to tell you where the misses are so you can make the necessary adjustments. Kind of hard to correct if you don't know whether the bullet went wide left, wide right, or turned "gopher" 20 yards ahead of the target.

Just what I was looking for!!!!!

 

[Olive]

well that is fascinating data. I have seen similar and it's quite frustrating. You measure groups out to 500 and they are good. The question is due to ballistics being exponential, not linear over distance, is whether the 100-300 yard groups can be an indicator that that MOA grouping can be held out to, let's say, 1500 yards? Or does the MOA spread get larger as you go farther, e.g. go from sub MOA at 100 yards to several MOA at 1500 yards?

The more experience I have, the less sure I am of what is happening at 1000 and beyond.




I don't remember getting a good answer to this question from Litz's 1st edition book... maybe he talks about this in his second edition.

If there is an equation to that wouldn't it still be considered MOA even if it spreads larger to the 1 inch for every 100yard equation? I think I just had a brain fart....LOL

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Olive, My best guess would be wind reading. You said it took you 3 rounds to get onto the target. You also stated that you were dialing for wind. My best guess is that wind may have been gusting a little bit and not consistent out past 700. This would explain the miss right and left. I would suggest what most others have suggested, head back out on a calm day and see what your results produce. Also pay extra attention to reading the wind out there and try to make the shots in the same conditions each time i.e. 3 mph wind (which you would almost barely feel) left to right gusts and goes away, fire the shot when no wind is present, the gust comes back wait for it to die down.

 

[Graham]

First time at 1000yards. Tell me what you think is the problem.

My mistake. Wrong thread.

 

[Graham]

Nevermind.

 

[RobertB]

I would just say to go try it a few more times. I shot a 1" Group at 600 yards a while back, if that was my first time to do that I might think that's normal. LOL You just need to go a few more times to see what your average results will be. If good shooters were having trouble then that tells me that it might not be the best conditions. If they are having great success and you were not then that would raise an eyebrow maybe. 1000 yds isn't close shooting even with a CM. I shoot one in a 19" bbl and can tear a 1K target up in low winds even with 120s but I have gone crazy with wind many times. Before you can push your limits you must first find what your limits are. After a few times let us know how your doing. Try getting a spotter too that knows a thing or two. That is a very valuable addition. I don't get too hung up on the tumbling with the CM. Guys been doing well with 308s for a long time that is a ballistic snail. Just do the best you can, keep good data, make sure your chamber/action is clean. And if that's your first time at 1k then don't worry yet, after a lot of bad success then worry. You got good gear and if you are doing good at 700 then theres not much reason you should be doing bad at 1k

Good luck!!!

 

[Graham]

Trying to bash on me Graham? haha

Yes - well, sort-of.

And I apologize. My mistake.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Haha I was just playing.

Educate me, I don't mean this in a sarcastic way at all: Would gusting winds at distance not produce those results presuming consistent fundamentals (breathing, trigger, follow through etc.)?

 

[Graham]

Left/right misses without explanation is a sign that the bullets are running out of gas and going subsonic.
A bad wind call, plus an adjustment, usually gets you closer in a predictable way, not unpredictable results.

 

[cali_tz]

the drop due to gravity is exponential ever 100 yards. 9m/sec**2 or something like that.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Ah ok. I was under the presumption that they were still supersonic out there. Makes sense.... I'm still learning.

 

[Night Eagle]

I have a couple of questions to the op...we're you guessing at the wind or r u using a kestrel...10 mph hold is a miss at 1k yards if the wind is only a couple of mph off in either direction. Also were you able to see bullet trace. I find spotting at 800-1000 yards much more challenging as trace starts or really get freaky. I wonder if you weren't spotting for yourself as accurately as you could have

 

[RobertB]

Left/right misses without explanation is a sign that the bullets are running out of gas and going subsonic.
A bad wind call, plus an adjustment, usually gets you closer in a predictable way, not unpredictable results.

I think your making this more complicated than it needs to be. I doubt his load is subsonic.

If you were to tell me a shooter shooting 1K for his first time was having problems, I would question the shooter before I would the gear and load knowing what he is shooting.

And if others were having a hard time then I would bet he would be too. I think you need to focus on other things when starting out other than external ballistics, especially if shooting what he has. If EB were thrown at me with fundamentals and other stuff it would be overwhelming

OP just keep shooting.