Hunting & Fishing First time hunter, have a few questions.

[WhiskeytangoM3]

Hey guys,

I've got a few questions for you. I've never been hunting before and it's something I'd like to get in to. I've chosen a Winchester Model 70 Super Grade in 30-06. I figured the rifle with FNH making them and making them very nicely in 30-06 with (on the site) gorgeous wood would be the "All 'Merican" hunting rifle for my first bolt action.

I've tried searching, but since everyone here has been hunting before it's hard for me to have perspective on what they say and why. IE "I use a Lupy 2-7x33 in the woods, you'll be fine."

First question is not on power of scope but the features. I see so many tactical scopes that have these great amazing features with great variable magnification and reticles that help you "do it all" but hunting scopes are just crosshair, elevation and windage. Is not having a side focus/parallax adj really not needed?

And back to the reticle, would it hurt to get a "mil" style reticle if I end up doing longer range shooting? Or does the good old fashioned crosshair easily get the job done? How difficult is it to guess distance? I just feel like the mind/eye would have an easier time guesstimating with something like the Viper HS XLR.

What about focal planes? I understand what each are, but for hunting is FFP still "better" even if the magnification is on lowest?

Basically would I be hurting if I got a VX-6 3-18x44 with just a basic duplex and no side focus in SFP instead of getting a Viper HS LR 4-16x50?

The scopes on my list so far are:

Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP

Viper HS LR 4-16x50 FFP

Mark 4 LR/T 3.5-10x40 M3 FFP

Weaver, Leupold, Redfield, Trijicon 3-9x40 SFP (maybe the 2.5-10x56)

VX-6 3-18x44 SFP



I'm sure some are going to ask price range, I'm willing to go to 1,500 but would like to keep it closer to 1k but I want to make sure that what I buy will be the best fit the first time around.

Oh and bonus points for helping me find a classic looking scope to go on the beauty of a rifle!

Thanks guys

 

[long range newbie]

it depends on where your hunting what animal. If your going to be shooting mostly from 0-200 yards then a 3-9 should work pretty well and thats what I use. If you want you can get a little more magnification but don't over do it. Make sure you bed your stock so if it gets humid it doesn't change zero because wood stocks expand when wet. I use a 270 win for hunting but a 30/06 will work fine for any north american game.

 

[Grumulkin]

Hey guys,

I've got a few questions for you.

You ARE joking? Aren't you?

 

[DoctorBen]

This depends entirely on what you're trying to hunt. I'm not sold on the idea that there is one do-all rifle. Having said that, I've lugged my Remington 700 with a 3-15 FFP scope on top through thick brushy woods where the farthest shot was maybe 50 yards out; overkill much? Taking a prairie-dog and coyote rifle out on a deer hunt wasn't the smartest choice. Are you shooting pigs in Texas? Elk in Wyoming? Deer in New York? Pick something you can carry comfortably, shoulder comfortably, with good eye relief, that gives you a consistent and natural cheek weld. Having a huge 56mm objective which requires high scope rings and gets your cheek off the stock won't help. When those have been accomplished, then worry about scopes. As long as you can see through it clearly, you won't need to worry about much else at practical hunting ranges. If you start taking 400+ yard shots, then worry more about ranging and reticles and dialing in elevation.

 

[dentout]

I bought a Ruger Model77 back in the early 70's. 30-06 with a 4 power redfield scope. It still works fine.

 

[Grumulkin]

1. So you bought a 30/06 with gorgeous wood. If you want to continue that theme, you should probably get a scope with a gloss finish unless the rifle has a matte finish receiver/barrel in which case a matte finish scope would be esthetically OK. That said, I have a Leupold Mark 4 on a 378 Weatherby with gorgeous wood and shiny blue barrel and receiver so do what you want.

2. Scope power to some extent is dictated by the shots you'll take. Trying to take a shot on a running dog at 25 yards with the scope set on 14X doesn't work too well; ask me how I know. A scope with 7X at the top end is easily good enough for 400 yard shots. Are you, your rifle and your ammunition good enough for shots beyond that?

3. The only advantage in a FFP scope is the ability to use it to range at any magnification. In order to use the scope to range, you have to be competent to use the mil system which takes a bit of practice and you have to know the dimensions of your target. By the time you figure all that out, your quarry may have vanished. Some shooters can estimate range better than others. When on my own turf, I'm probably OK in range estimation up to 300 yards; beyond that I probably ought to use a range finder. Put me in unfamiliar territory and my range estimation skills get pretty bad. With a 30/06 capable of consistent 1 inch 100 yard groups, if you zero 1 or 2 inches high at 100 yards, you should be able to put the cross hairs in the middle of the lungs on a deer and hit the vitals at up to 300 yards. For smaller animals more precision is needed.

4. I like reticle marked in some way in the mil system but not because I'm going to use them for ranging. I find it fairly easy to memorize which dot or hash to use at 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards.

5. Of the scopes you mention, I'd go with the Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10X with the M3 turrets. I have several of them including some with illuminated reticles but none are FFP. I have nothing against FFP scopes but have never thought them worth the extra money for my use.

6. Having to adjust the parallax on a scope when hunting with a higher magnification scope is a pain.

 

[xXlojackXx]

Like others have said, you have to realistically determine what you're going to hunt and how you need your rifle to be set up. I have a 30-06 with a 3-9x scope for hunting the west side of my state where it's dense and dark timber. When I hunt the east side where it's open and more capable of long shots, I take my .338 Edge with a NF 5.5-22x56 to be able to reach out 1000+ yards if necessary. If you're hunting long range, be realistic of your abilities and don't guess or say "I think I can make the shot". You owe it to the animal to be able to make a clean kill shot. Making a poor shot on a steel target is less important than crippling an animal and losing it.

 

[Brian]

Hey guys,

I've got a few questions for you. I've never been hunting before and it's something I'd like to get in to.

Never as in never shot an animal or

never as in never been on a hunt, on a track, gutted, skinned, packed meat out??

Game laws and ethical practices

how versed are you in those areas?

These are things you need to know and do before the firearm comes into play

A new hunter has no business to even attempt to take game over 100yrds

the gun does NOT make the hunter...

Also ignorance of the law is no exception

You fk up on game and the CO's are gonna have that gun and possibly a whole lot more in your state's next auction.

 

[Willyz_54]

Your profile appears incomplete so we don't know where you are, but if your state's Game and Fish Department offers a Hunter's Safety course get yourself signed up. In some states that do a lottery draw, having completed the course even gives you a bonus point for the draw system.

 

[Brian]

..but if your state's Game and Fish Department offers a Hunter's Safety course get yourself signed up...

Good point as a bunch of states require this before purchase of a license and some require you to have it in your possession while afield.

 

[Hairball]

Find someone in your area that is an experienced hunter and ask (or pay) them to go with you. Not sure where you live but many areas have guide services as well. Just be upfront with them an don't claim to know and understand things that you have never done. Tell them you have never hunted and they will approach you differently than a so called "experienced" hunter that continues to screw up in the field.

 

[Mark williams]

Agree with all said above. I think the first thing has to be hunter safety . The second thing should be hunting ethics. That means doing things the right way with having the game ur hunting in mind. The next thing would be state laws ur hunting in. Then the caliber and optics should be studied and chosen for game u think u will hunt and distances u would shoot. I woul invest in range finder because u should never guess when shooting at game animal. U should do a lot of shooting with ur rifle at various ranges until u are a superb shot so that u will know what u and ur rifle capabilities are. Then I think u should find a friend with experience and pick his brain and go with him . Find out all u can about the game ur hunting, their habits,food they eat , where they sleep, rest and travel from one to the other. With all that being said make sur all around u are safe including u. Get out and enjoy the great outdoors and do it every chance u get for its a wonderful thing. Like everything else , experience is the greatest teacher of all. With hundreds and hundreds of hours in the field u can come proficient at ur craft. That's the only way! Good luck and great hunting!

 

[WhiskeytangoM3]

Wow! This is A LOT of great info for me to digest. I have no intention of being an irresponsible hunter, luckily for me the people I would be going with a family that are avid hunters with property here in Texas. That being said it'd be deer and hog that I'd be hunting.

I'm not trying to find a do it all rifle, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that for most medium to large game that the 30-06 is a great caliber to choose with plenty of ammo in stock and on the shelves as we speak as well as being able to look of hand load info and have a huge selection of tips. I've got a Larue OBR on order for other things as well.

I completely intend to be a respectful hunter and not shoot beyond my abilities, seriously the last thing I want to see is an animal suffer from something I did wrong. After talking to a buddy of mine about hunting I've never really been keen on getting into it, but once he told me that I can actually donate the meat to an organization that prepares it for charities and homeless people meals I thought that I could really get behind that...never been a fan of deer meat.

Before I posted this I had looked up some tactical and hunting courses near me (FNH SPRA1a is on my to buy list) so that I can properly use the tool I had bought.

But the question that is still nagging at me is FFP or SFP for hunting...I can't help but to think that FFP gets the nod bc that's what I'll be getting for my FNH SPR.

Just keep thinking the Mark 4 LR/T 3.5-10 or the Viper PST/HS 4-16.

OR maybe just start out with a nice upper end 3-9 like the Trijicon with green dot or maybe a VX-R Patrol 3-9, that way both can be used on something else if I end up changing my mind.

Again, thank you for the great feedback!

 

[264win]

Great choice on the rifle and caliber.
For a hunting scope I would suggest a sfp scope. Ffp is nice for some things , but on almost all ffp scopes the reticle gets very hard to see on low power [ which is where you will want to keep your scope set for hunting] particularly if you have low light or a dark background.
Get a quality scope in the 3-10/4-16 range. I would suggest a Leupold vx 3 3.5-10 with 30mm main tube.

 

[Dog&Jeep]

Hunting is often less about gear, and more about knowledge...and luck.

I have two areas I routinely hunt. They are both roughly equidistant from my home, and from each other. Both places are good for deer, pig, and coyotes.

At one spot, I have grassy plains with good visibility out to 4-5 hundred yards. I can usually spot the game, and figure out how to sneak into my shot without alarming the critters. When I'm there, I use a Tikka T3 lite in .308 with a simple Redfield scope. It ain't fancy, but it's never failed me.

The other spot is thick with brush and scrub oak. In this place, 50 yards is a long shot, and it's usually a running shot. When I'm here, I use an old Winchester '94 with Williams peep sights. That's simply the best gun I've found for that hunting ground.

Last point: The less you have to carry, the more you'll enjoy the hunt.

 

[slm9s]

Swaro Z5 3.5-18
Leica 3.5-14
Leupy 2-12 or 3-18
Zeiss 3-15

Get SFP.

I wouldn't get exposed turrets for a hunting rifle, but some do. I go thru a lot of brush and don't want to worry about my turret getting spun unintentionally.

A ballistic reticle of some sort, TDS or Boone&Crockett, is nice if you're shooting past 300 yards.

 

[Grumulkin]

I remember when I bought a Nightforce scope and then took it Pronghorn Antelope hunting. I had read up on mils and how to adjust the turrets for different ranges.

I was up for the first Pronghorn and took a couple of shots from the prone position at probably 150 yards if my memory serves me correctly. I missed completely what should have been an easy shot. I got to thinking that with all my turret turning I maybe had turned it all the way around so my zero point looked correct but really wasn't. Sure enough, that's what I had done. I put the turret back where it belonged and when I got my next shot, it was about a 282 yard prone shot and I bagged my Pronghorn.

So, the biggest danger with turrets as I see it is not that they'll accidentally get spun unintentionally but that they'll get spun intentionally by someone who isn't as proficient as they should be (in the above case me) in turret spinning. With a reticle marked in mils for shots up to 400 or 500 yards, there really shouldn't be much need for turret spinning anyway in a hunting situation. Of course, with the ballistic turrets, zero stops, etc., you'll not be as likely to get lost in the turret.

 

[hlee]

Hunting gear is more about fashion than it is about function. Everything from 223 rem to 50bmg (check YouTube) has been used to take deer sized game in NA. And, given appropriate distances and good shot placement all will produce the same result (a deer at the end of a blood trail). The 30-06 is a good middle of the road caliber and remains popular because of its wide selection of bullets, availability of ammunition, relatively mild recoil, and proven record of performance. Any of the scopes you listed (and most of the scopes on the market) will serve well in the field. 3-9x variable scopes remain the most popular for hunting applications (although I am not sure if that is due to function or availability). Combined with a 40mm objective, this form factor has a generous exit pupil at low power, a wide field of view (as compared to higher magnification scopes), and a relatively lightweight and compact package (relative to "tactical" scopes). Shooting opportunities generally occur at known distances (stand to food plot) or at close range (still hunting). Let's face it, you are hunting in Texas so there is a relatively small chance of a cross canyon shot, and your need to dial elevation will either be minimal (stand hunting) or absent by necessity (still hunting). Ranging reticles are great given the application but are really not necessary for deer hunting. Given this, the utility of a first focal plane scope is minimized. All else being equal, SFP scopes tend to be less expensive than FFP scopes. Skipping the "tac turrets" gives you a lower profile and lighter scope. Reducing the feature set to what you actually need (clear glass, high light transmission, wide field of view, easy to see crosshairs) and eliminating what you do not (FFP, tactical turrets, 56mm objective, HDMR reticle, etc) allows you to get more of what you need for less money.

More deer have been taken with "Walmart rifles" sporting "Walmart scopes" than will ever be taken by Vortex, Nightforce, Schmidt & Bender, and US Optics combined.

But, you will be spending more time at camp than you will be spending afield. Remember that statement about fashion and function. An expensive scope will get many more favorable looks than a Walmart special- given the group knows what they are looking at. My experience is that most hunters look for that tell tale "gold ring" and anything without it will be seen as second rate.

One last thing, except for applications where the crosshairs can blending with the target (black bear, a especially black pig), illuminated reticles are not necessary. If iris too dark to see the crosshairs then it is too dark (early or late) to legally shoot.

If I were hunting "out west" where shooting opportunities would be at unknown distances from point blank to 600 yards or more, I would choose a scope with finger adjustable turrets- and maybe a FFP model.

 

[roggom]

Scope selection should be based on the type of hunting you will be doing. In Texas you may be hunting deer out on the prairie or maybe in the woods, but you can choose a scope that does both. Most times hunters will just have two or more separate rifles depending on the type of shooting they will do. For example, in deep woods and thickets you will want a lower power scope and a simple duplex or German reticle. The reason is for wide field of view and quick site acquisition. As you lift your rifle to your eye you want to see as much of the surrounding area as possible, then put the crosshairs on the kill zone and pull the trigger. External turrets are not that important as you will set it to MPBR (max point blank range) so any shot from 50-250 should land in the kill zone.

Out on the prairie, you can see the game for up to a mile or so. Taking your time and stalking, you have more time to calculate, set dope and dial. Higher magnification is a plus here, but no need to go overboard, because again you want a decent field of view if the game starts moving. For me 3.5-10 works great for up to 700Y, I had a 4-16 but always would turn it down to x8.

Another consideration is turret types. For me, when hunting on the prairie I like fast/ high speed turrets. The Vortex HS, Nightforce, and Leupold (M3) are fast turrets, you can dial to 6-700 in one turn, so even with a zero stop, you do not have to worry about getting lost in turns.

Last is matching the scope to the rifle, some guys will say it does not matter as long as it does what I want, I say horse shit. Nothing says tactitard more than a classic hunting rifle with a big-ass tactical scope on it. Just my opinion, but I am not alone.

If I was scoping a Model 70, It would be a Leupy VX6, VXr or VX3 Ziess Victory/ Conquest, or maybe a S&B Klassic for a European scope. 3-9 or 2-12 power, but obj not over 44. Keeps the scope lower to the receiver.

 

[45.308]

I'll play.

Hunting is about hunting, nothing more. Learn and hone your skills; camping, hiking, shooting, stalking, game care, etc. Reading game in their habitat, read the terrain, stalk, get with in normal hunting range. Field dress as they lay, fancy skinning skills and rigs are not needed until it comes to trophy, bear paws required some skill and do the head area.

Know the laws in your area. Laws in Alaska even confuse F&G sometimes.

I am all about KISS, keep it simple stupid.

I also believe light is right, lighter is righter, lightest is rightest.

Get a rifle that you can carry and then shoot. What ever it is think it is the best for you. In my experience seeing hunters from outside show up with missing ammo left at home or taken by the airlines, dropped in the river, what ever, caliber should me common for easier to find at any ammo shop, a wildcat rolled at home load can bring disappointment.

Scopes; I prefer and use low power fixed scope, Leupold 3x Alaskan with duplex ret. Tipping over game requires accuracy but not dissecting a small area for one holing. Field of view is more needed in my experience than trying to split hairs. Duplex ret leads my eyes to the thinner crossing point in low light conditions encountered in hunting. A german #4 is a very good ret for low light hunting too. Mildot or ranging for hunting; hold over and such OK but at normal hunting ranges not required for those who can hunt. Average hunting range is not 800 yards like many confess. For ranging, animal standing still maybe but easier in theory. Turrets for hunting, again why. Learn to hunt.

Bullet design while not critical a well designed bullet should be used. Never in 40 years of using Partitions did a single bullet fail.

A complete hunting rifle; rifle, scope, mounts, ammo sling is a tool and should be used as such.

Good luck

 

[WhiskeytangoM3]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys! I really appreciate the advice you've given.

Make no mistake I'm not trying to buy something I won't need or use. I just want to make sure I buy the right tool for the job that will also be flexible enough to maybe do a few more just as well. Just don't know when I'll be able to buy another rifle.

Just never thought it'd be so hard to buy a scope before lol. So many great recommendations from people's personal experience and testing, usually you can look at handful or reviews and see which one is usually in each of them and narrow it down from there, but not for a hunting scope.

Again, thank you for the great advice, hopefully soon I can start piecing everything together and start showing you guys.

 

[Graywolf.260]

I think a really nice scope for a hunting rifle like you are describing is a Zeiss conquest with hunting turrets with a rapid z reticle- probably a Z600 for your purposes. Either a 3-9 x 40, very light and compact, or a 3.5-10x44 which is just a tad heavier but more flexible. Both are simple and clear without parallax adjustment, pretty much a perfect setup for most hunting within 600yd. It will take you a bit of practice to understand the reticle, then with a simple range finder you are good to go (at least your equipment is good to go, there is a lot to learn as has been said).

 

[Infinity]

OP, nice choice on the rifle! I'm like you in wanting to make sure I get the best fit/value piece of gear I can out of the gate. Don't rush your decision, you'll know which optic is THE ONE when you come across it (then read hours of discussions agonizing and confirming that it is in fact the one). The answers to your optics questions all depend on average hunting distances, style of hunting, and how much target shooting you may do with that rifle. I'll try to answer your questions with my experience and reasoning, then generalize a bit after.

I have two deer rifles (will eventually have 3).

My primary deer/moose rifle here in Vermont is a Marlin 1895SS Big Loop 45-70 that wears a Leupold VX-1 1-4 x 20 with shotgun duplex (thick crosshairs) reticle. You'll be fine with a standard reticle, just avoid FFP in my opinion. In low light, not having to squint to see your reticle will be something you appreciate. The optic is mounted with Leupold STEEL base and rings: rock solid. The only feature this scope has is variable magnification and a near true 1x low end. All of my shots with this rifle are 100 yards or less with most in the 30-60 yard range. When still-hunting/stalking/tracking in thick woods, I crank to 1x and leave it there most of the time. It makes close runners and jumping bedded deer like shooting skeet through a tube. If I stop at a small woods clearing or decide to get in my bow stand, I'll change the magnification based on how far my furthest shot will be (usually 4x if I do decide to stand; when younger, I've taken shots on running deer at less than 100 yards with the scope on 9x...advice to a new hunter, don't put yourself in that position). I get blood trails like a red carpet, love this gun and optic!

My beanfield rifle, used for deer in Wisconsin over big fields and for elk in Colorado, with shots to 600 yards, is a Rem 700 300 Win Mag. That rifle wears a Nikon Monarch 2.5-10x42 with Mil-dot reticle. Again, this scope doesn't have parallax adjustment, nor side focus. It also has plain, capped windage and elevation adjusments, not target turrets. My only criticism of this optic is that it is Mil reticle/MOA adjustments...fortunately, not a big deal since I set in and forget it...would suck with target turrets. I have the 2.5x cranked down on my way to the stand because I pass a bedding area on my way in and crank it back up when I turn the corner about 300 yards away.

My all around dream rifle will most likely be a GAP custom bolt with 18-20" barrel in .308 That wears something like a U.S. Optics MR-10. When target shooting, I will use the target turrets and can cap them for hunting. This combo will give me the best of both worlds between the above two rifles, ballistically and optically.

Deciding what you want as far as range finding with your reticle, the following page (see posts by sscoyote) should help a bit:

Can you use a BDC reticle for rangefinding? - PredatorMasters Forums

This other link will further educate you on how unnecessary parallax adjustment is for hunting:

Parallax and hunting - The Optics Talk Forums

I realize I haven't given you any concrete optic recommendations but I feel it would be difficult based on the info you've provided. Ask your family members what average hunting distances/circumstances will be (hunting from a jeep, tripod box stand, ground blind over watering hole, walking, etc.?) hopefully this response will help you make the best choice you can. If you want more specific recommendations, pm me with a little more info about where you'll be hunting and I'm happy to help. Cheers,

Adam

P.S. Most of my posts aren't novels...

 

[rem300wm]

I'll play.

Hunting is about hunting, nothing more. Learn and hone your skills; camping, hiking, shooting, stalking, game care, etc. Reading game in their habitat, read the terrain, stalk, get with in normal hunting range. Field dress as they lay, fancy skinning skills and rigs are not needed until it comes to trophy, bear paws required some skill and do the head area.

Know the laws in your area. Laws in Alaska even confuse F&G sometimes.

I am all about KISS, keep it simple stupid.

I also believe light is right, lighter is righter, lightest is rightest.

Get a rifle that you can carry and then shoot. What ever it is think it is the best for you. In my experience seeing hunters from outside show up with missing ammo left at home or taken by the airlines, dropped in the river, what ever, caliber should me common for easier to find at any ammo shop, a wildcat rolled at home load can bring disappointment.

Scopes; I prefer and use low power fixed scope, Leupold 3x Alaskan with duplex ret. Tipping over game requires accuracy but not dissecting a small area for one holing. Field of view is more needed in my experience than trying to split hairs. Duplex ret leads my eyes to the thinner crossing point in low light conditions encountered in hunting. A german #4 is a very good ret for low light hunting too. Mildot or ranging for hunting; hold over and such OK but at normal hunting ranges not required for those who can hunt. Average hunting range is not 800 yards like many confess. For ranging, animal standing still maybe but easier in theory. Turrets for hunting, again why. Learn to hunt.

Bullet design while not critical a well designed bullet should be used. Never in 40 years of using Partitions did a single bullet fail.

A complete hunting rifle; rifle, scope, mounts, ammo sling is a tool and should be used as such.

Good luck

This is the most solid advise I have seen on this thread. I don't care for high magnifaction scopes or heavy rifles when I am hunting. I have always hunted with a 4x scope. This provides a wide field of view at close ranges, (100 or less), and has proved just fine on deer and elk out to 400 yards. I have rarely encountered a situation where it was necessary to shoot this far much less farther than that.

The only qualification I would make regarding 45.308's comments regards partition bullets. The partition or any of the other "premium hunting bullets" should be shot through bone. I have seen a number of instances where high velocity chamberings with lighter "premium hunting bullets" did not expand on lung shots or brisket shots. I have never seen them fail when shot through bone.

 

[40xs]

First, learn to hunt. Most of us older guys started with very rudimentary equipment. Single shot .22's, single bbl.shotguns, 30/30 lever actions with plain sights. We had our skninning and gutting skills down way before our dreams of looking through glass. I realize it's now the 21st. century and technology is consuming us.
but most of what I still hunt with is either big bore revolvers or t/c contenders with 4x duplex scopes and one simmons 2-7 vari. on a .309 jdj. contender. Whatever makes you happy is what I say. It's your money! I use my long guns for 1000yd comps. Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett didn't have to worry about what kind of scope to put on their smokepole. like was mentioned earlier no one wants to show up at "camp" with a thutty/thutty anymore, it's too degrading when everyone else has the newest whizbang rigs.