First time out with reloads....crappy results

BgBmBoo

BgBmBoo

Gunny Sergeant
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Minuteman
Jul 8, 2008
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Redding, CA. USA
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#1
Ok...so I made up 30rds for my .223 (Tikka T3) today. These are the very first hand loads I have ever made. The results are rather sorry.
To say I am disappointed is putting it mildly. Here is a pic. The first group was about what I shoot with quality factory ammo. After that it all went to hell.
Bottom pic is what it shoots like with Black Hills ammo.

I started with 23.8g of BenchMark using a 50gr. Blitz King. Next was 24.3g and then 24.8g. Primers are CCI 400's. Case is once fired Black Hills trimmed to length,etc.

What now?

Take care,Stan



 
#2
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

What twist is the barrel on the Tikka?

You might want to try starting with a ladder to find out where the pressure signs begin.

How deep are you seating them in the chamber?

RAD

 
#3
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

You might want to try different bullet weights. Also if it shoots great with BH Vmax why not try the Vmax bullets? If the twist is 1 in 9 try some 69 grain bullets.

It might not be your load maybe just the bullet. I know my Savage would not shoot the 168 grain Amax but my Remington likes them. Just try different combinations. Goodluck.
 
#4
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

Must go faster.

BH V-MAX is rated at 3300fps. The loads you listed are not even to 3000fps.

Since there is a "gold standard" attempt to duplicate it at a minimum.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#5
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

It has only heroed for me twice.

I have a Swift that would one hole with factory @ 3,675. It shot 3/4-1" @ 4,100 with hand loads.

I was about to give up on it. Still had one factory loaded round {would'nt chamber,thick rim} Used a comparator and seated to that length.

One hole @ 4,100,,,all good!

Hope it heros for you.
 
#6
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

The twist is 1:8...seating them per the reloading manual at 2.235 OAL.

I have ordered some different weight bullets and some different powder. But as many know...bullets and primers are getting hard to come by. So just finding is a chore. Happily I am primer rich with 8000 small rifle primers.

My buddy has a Tikka Tactical and both mine and his rifle will shoot 40-77gr factory ammo with pretty much the same results...1/2" or better five shot groups at 100yrds.
So these results are a real bummer.

Will try upper the powder charge and see if that helps...but it seems the larger powder charge today was the worst of the batch.

Thanks,Stan
 
#7
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

All of my .22 center fires shoot the 52 gr SMK extremely well.

Its also an exellent fur bullet.

I would get some Lapua brass.

Check the base to ogive on the BH ammo and dupe it with your reloads. Dont be "married" to just one bullet or powder. With a little tinkering youll get it shooting better than factory.

Sometimes you fall into a great load right away...sometimes it takes awhile. Good luck and keep us posted!!!

 
#8
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

1 in 8 you should definitely try some 75's and 77's - I had a Larue that loved the heavy ones. Also you will find that faster isn't always accurate. It's great if you can both attain speed and accuracy but sometimes it's pretty hard. Goodluck.
 
#9
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

i am ruuning the 52 gr amax with 25.4gr benchmark and a cci 400 or 25 gr H335 with a cci 400 with great results. As stated above must go faster.
 
#10
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Must go faster.

BH V-MAX is rated at 3300fps. The loads you listed are not even to 3000fps.

Since there is a "gold standard" attempt to duplicate it at a minimum.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

This! You stopped about a 1/2 grain shy of were your groups will start to tighten up.
Were your case necks pretty dirty?
 
#11
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

Don't give up on things just yet, you loaded your own ammo for the first time and have fired them without anything being seriously bad-just not what you were looking for as you have found in the factory ammo up until now. If it were mine I would go for a heavier bullet, but that does not mean that what you have won't shoot accurately if you play with the powder a bit.
 
#12
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

It usually takes a good bit more thought and a lot of sheer effort to attain really good results.
You may want to try some 69-77 smk's in your 1:8
Mine loves those even at 2.26".
 
#13
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

Stan
You still have a bit more to go on the powder scale. According to the Lyman manual, for the 50 blitz with Benchmark, the range goes from 23.8 to 26.5 grains. Do you have any signs of pressure at 24.8? If not, I would go a bit higher. As always, exercise cautions when you are approaching the upper limit.
 
#14
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

You may want to load up 5 rounds each with increasing powder charge by 0.2gr. Chrono them. Then plot the average MV against charge weight. You will probably find that at some point the curve flattens out and then goes up again. The flat spot is probably an accuracy node.

Are you weighing each charge? It may be worth your while doing this until you have a load worked up. I would first figure out charge weight and then play with seating depth. You should also be able to find an acceptable load for that bullet without trying another one first. It may not win any BR competitions, but should shoot accurately. My first handloads were just like yours. I was just happy that they went bang. But factory accuracy was much better. Now it's the other way around. It takes some time and tinkering. There are so many variables that can affect accuracy and in the beginning it can be a bit overwhelming. Keep at it. You'll get there.
 
#15
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

Stan,
One of the things that has affected accuracy in a lot of my handloads is also the most simple.
After you try a little more powder, put together batches with .010 variations in the overall
length. I have had loads go from 7 inch groups at 200 yds to 1 inch with the same weight powder,
same bullet, case and primer. Just different lengths. I know that is not typical as it was with
a Barnes TSX but it does show what it can do. A favorite of mine in 308 which was 45.5 gr Varget
behind 155 Scenar at 2.820 would shoot under .5 out of 4 guns here at the shop. My friends
would only do fair with it. He had some freebore, so I stretched it to 2.920 for his gun and it
shot .5 at 200. Tried to buy it from him.
wink.gif
 
#16
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

Stan,

Not unusual at all. There are a lot of combinations to try using the same powder, primers, brass and bullets, let alone all the other great bullets, powders, primers, etc.

I don't own a chronograph and am a pretty lazy bastid. I typically look for a bunch of sources for a given bullet or powder and start at the middle with 15-20 cases each up or down in .5 gr increments: enough to get an idea of accuracy/pressure sign, and so on; without being too many to pull if they are crap or dangerously high pressure.

If I hit paydirt, then I'll putz around with .3 gr increments around a good load.

So far in my Savage .223 with a 1:10" barrel, I have found joy with 69 gr SMKs over Varget as well as 52 gr Hornady HPBT over W748, or BLC2.

You'll get there.
 
#17
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

my SOP is to seat the bullets to the lands or mag length, whichever is shorter, and load up from 10% reduced until i see pressure signs i'm comfortable with. you can compare the fired primers to the factory load's primers and get a general idea of your pressures. my .22 centerfires seem to thrive on speed.

the COAL in the manual means less than your rifles magbox/chamber.

the main thing is to pay attention to what your rifle is telling you every time you change something.
 
#19
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Must go faster.

BH V-MAX is rated at 3300fps. The loads you listed are not even to 3000fps.

Since there is a "gold standard" attempt to duplicate it at a minimum.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

This! You stopped about a 1/2 grain shy of were your groups will start to tighten up.
Were your case necks pretty dirty? </div></div>


Hi gang.
Thanks for all the input and support. I will bump up the powder charge a bit. And yes...I measure each charge (I am using a RCBS electronic scale/dispenser).

Doc...yes...case necks are pretty dirty. And when I got home and cleaned the barrel it was pretty dirty too (lots of powder fouling).

I wish it was easy to just run to town and grab different powder and bullets to try. But it is slim pick'ens around here.
I did order some 55gr.,60gr.,and 69gr.,bullets and some RamShot TAC powder. I notice a couple of cans of N133 on the shelf so I will grab a pound of that also (I have heard good things from the benchrest guys about N133).

I will try and load up some more preped cases tonight and get to the range tomorrow and see how it goes. Will post results and see what you all say to try next.

Take care,Stan
 
#20
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This! You stopped about a 1/2 grain shy of were your groups will start to tighten up.
Were your case necks pretty dirty? </div></div>

I agree.

You should have a pretty full case with Benchmark with a 50 gr bullet to get it to tighten up. I think it is about 1 grain faster than Varget.

Yes... I just looked. You should be right at 26.5 for max. that is basically a full case about 1/8" down the neck.
 
#22
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my SOP is to seat the bullets to the lands or mag length, whichever is shorter, and load up from 10% reduced until i see pressure signs i'm comfortable with. you can compare the fired primers to the factory load's primers and get a general idea of your pressures. my .22 centerfires seem to thrive on speed.
</div></div>

I'd put a caliper to them too. Primer isn't the only way to see excessive pressure
 
#23
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Citysmasher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does it man if your case necks are dirty? Never heard that one.. </div></div>

Insufficient pressure to obdurate the case neck enough to seal against the chamber wall, preventing gas and burning powder from backing into the chamber, leaving combustion residue on the outside of the neck.

That was a little unclear: with insufficient pressure, the case doesn't expand enough to be sealed against the chamber wall, allowing gas to slip backward!
 
#24
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Citysmasher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does it man if your case necks are dirty? Never heard that one.. </div></div>

Insufficient pressure to obdurate the case neck enough to seal against the chamber wall, preventing gas and burning powder from backing into the chamber, leaving combustion residue on the outside of the neck. </div></div>


Also, if your trim case length is a bit shorter than it should be, then you don't get a good seal
 
#25
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

Thanks guys for all the input. HK...I just saw your PM...was not ignoring you...thank you.

Well I ordered some different bullets and some more reloading manuals.
I will bump up the charge per the the above replies and try and get to the range and will let you all know how it turns out.

Take care,Stan
 
#26
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

So can I extrapolate from that that if I see a lot of powder residue on the outside of the case neck after firing that I don't have enough pressure?

I am in the same boat as Bgbamboo. I just started loading for my .223 Tikka. I have some 75 gr( I think) SMk's that I have not loaded yet. I also have a ton of Mil Spec 55gr that loaded just to get started and I ran them through my Tikka and saw disappointing results. I had the rifle hitting dead on at 650 yards and suddenly my new loads were hitting about 6 feet low.

This is
21.9 Gr of H332 (the max shown for this bullet in the Hornady manual)
Federal primers
Mil Surp brass, cleaned, trimmed, swaged, cleaned again and loaded.
I measured each charge on the first batch, and checked the length on each one as well, the book calls for 2.20 even.

I am also seeing very dirty necks on my spent brass.
 
#27
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hill billy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So can I extrapolate from that that if I see a lot of powder residue on the outside of the case neck after firing that I don't have enough pressure?</div></div>

If the powder residue goes down past the neck and over the sholder, you definately do not have sufficient pressure.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am in the same boat as Bgbamboo. I just started loading for my .223 Tikka. I have some 75 gr( I think) SMk's that I have not loaded yet. I also have a ton of Mil Spec 55gr that loaded just to get started and I ran them through my Tikka and saw disappointing results. I had the rifle hitting dead on at 650 yards and suddenly my new loads were hitting about 6 feet low. </div></div>

I have had good luck wth the 69 SMKs.
 
#28
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If the powder residue goes down past the neck and over the sholder, you definately do not have sufficient pressure.

</div></div>

How about just the neck itself? Insufficient pressure?

I will bump the load up and see where it gets me. Thanks for the advice.
 
#29
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

I use 26.5gr of W748 with Nosler 50gr Ballistic Tips. Also 27.5gr of W748 and 52SMK's. Also 25.4gr W748 and Nosler 55gr Ballistic tips. These are my bolt gun loads for the 700 VLS .223.

AR with 26.0gr of Varget and 52SMK.

With new brass, soot means low pressure. With hardened necks, it just means the necks aren't expanding because of work hardening, so don't assume soot mans you need more powder. With hard necks, you also need to be watching other pressure signs.

Greg
 
#30
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

I've been fairly unhappy as a whole with the H332 for the 55g. It doesn't meter all that well for starters. BUt I got three pounds free so I'd like to make some of it work. I have some 748 waiting in the wings.
 
#31
Re: First time out with reloads....crappy results

If the powder burn is not uniform around the neck is also an indication not hot enough,If theres aline of burn on one side and not all the way around to the shoulder your not sealing.check pressure signs and bump up the powder.Have a 300RSAUM that took 6 months of tinkering to get .5 out of it. Its worth every penny of time to squeek out every bit of accuracy.just my 2cnts
 
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