First Time Rifle Owner Questions / Feedback

[Louie12]

Hello all,

I finally found a place where I could ask questions regarding long range rifles. I seen other sites but they really don't get into new rifle owner looking to buy one. I'm in the process of buying my first long range rifle. For the last month I been reading what is good , and what is bad. Below is the break down what I need.

My Goal.
I would like to get into long range shooting at some point. Be able to hit metal at 1000+ .
I would like a rifle I could buy out of the box and fairly be good, but also down the road upgrade the parts to perform better or shoot longer distance once I think it's the right time.
Something that won't break the bank since I'm on a budget ($1000) out the door . Currently paying for school, family, house...

My Current Status
I started about 1 yr 1/2 shooting shooting hand gun, then started to purchase other hand gun. I move up to a AR before it got banned (CA) . I had some basic training how to shot and stuff but I sign up for more training next month. Going to the range once a month trying to go twice a month. Taking my kids, and wife out so they could learn.
The rifle will be my first one so I'm excited and nervous about getting the right one for me.

When I first started doing research i was really going for the .308.. One of my co-works was telling me to get the 6.5 since he own's one. I did shot his Ruger Precision rifle he bought couple months back. The trigger was very light and nice looking. Plus the cost it a little bit to much for me. I'm not buying a rifle for looks I'm buying for what it could do.

The rifles I been considering are below.

1. Remington 700 ADL .308 24' . The price on that rifle is about $450 - $550 . Comes with a scope already. Here are the key features

3-9x40MM Scope mounted
Legendary Model 700 bolt action
Improved, ergonomically designed synthetic stock
24" clean barrel without sights
Blind box magazine
Specifications:
Caliber: .308 Winchester
Barrel: 24"


2. Savage 10BA Stealth Chassis 6.5 Creedmoor 24" Barrel. Shopping around the lowest I found is $979.00

MODEL: 10BA Stealth
TYPE: Rifle
ACTION: Bolt Action
STOCK/FRAME: Synthetic Stock
STOCK/GRIPS: Adj. Stock w/Adj. Cheek Riser
SPC FEATURE: Threaded Barrel Model
CALIBER/GAUGE: 6.5 Creedmoor
CAPACITY: 10 rd.
BARREL: 24"
Picatinny Rail
M-LOK Forend
Monolithic Chassis

Here's my issues I'm having.

1. Since I live out in CA there's not a lot of places down south where I could shoot more then 600 yards. The only place I could think of is in the desert but that means I would have to drive about 45 mins and find a safe spot to shot. That's kind of hard to find around here since they are closing BLM section.

2. I notice the 6.5 is more expensive to shot then the .308 . I plan on reloading since I just received my Lee reloading Kit. Buying the ammo at first will cost me but plan on reloading either way. The .308 is easier to find and cheaper.

3. Remington already comes with a scope / rings and the Savage I would have to both scope / rings / picatinny rail. That would mean I would have to save up just to buy those part and that could take me a month or 2 depending on bills and WIFE lol... Don't feel like having Savage just sit a home doing nothing until I get all the stuff. But once I do get the parts I believe it will be awesome to shot.


Over all I hear that the Remington is a very good rifle but the Savage is better for long distance. The gun shop i went to told me why buy the 6.5 if you can't shot long distance around here plus ammo is expensive . The 308 cheaper and easier to find.

Thank you guys for taking the time on reading my post and hopefully it's not long and make sense. Just nervous buying something I might out grow down the road or regret I not buying the right one for me. it's a big decision starting this hobby but like always I find ways to pay for things down the road. ( Working Over Time! ) hahah

If I'm missing anything please let me know, any feedback would be awesome.

Thank you,

 

[spife7980]

Sounds like 308 wont hold you back too much then. With those budget constraints I might suggest looking around for something used?

The 700 adl will be fairly accurate, if you reload I would expect to be able to get less than 1moa out of it. The stock stinks and the scope isnt great and neither is the trigger/rings/base. But it will get you out shooting the quickest and if it would take you a year to save up enough for the savage and a scope I would probably go for the 700. If it would be an additional month to get the savage I would def go that route.

The rem will also allow you an easy way to upgrade in the future, huge market for aftermarket parts.

Really is just how much you are willing to spend. Dont go broke just because us people on the internet say that there something better for just a bit more. Because that never stops once it starts and the kids college fund is more important.

A tikka will be the best out of the box though judging by current trends at a given price point.

 

[TheGerman]

Barrett MRAD

 

[domdoc]

I'd go with the Savage, but get a less expensive model. 260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor are good choices. Make sure the twist is 1 in 8 inches. Otherwise, it might not stabilize the heavier bullets when you get around to shooting 1,000 yards. With a 24" barrel, they will reach out to at least 1,200 yards. However, start with 200-300, and work up. With the Savage, barrel changes are super easy later on, assuming you ever need to, which you might not. I would recommend one of the models with a heavier barrel, and I prefer stainless steel, but it's not that big a deal. Also, get one with a decent stock, that can be bedded to the action. Don't get a flimsy plastic stock that can be bent against the barrel. A 20 MOA picatinny rail, and whatever scope suits your budget and wishes. If the Remington is a 1:12 twist, you will not be able to shoot bullets better than about the Berger 168, although that works fine to 1,000 yards. .308 just has more recoil. 6.5 is plenty good for hunting medium-sized game, like deer. The preferred twist for .308 is 1:10. The Remington trigger is OK, and the Savage trigger is A-OK.

 

[JMcBurn]

You looked at all at the ruger american predator in 6.5 or 308? They are cheap, good shooters, and for <$1000 you can put an ok scope and bipod on. Be a gun that will have no issues getting out to 1000+ yards

I'd spec a 6.5mm Creedmoor Ruger American Predator, probably a Athlon Argos BTR 6-24, a set of quality rings, a EGW scope base in 20 MOA cant and probably a caldwell brand harris style bipod. That setup will run you sub $900 if you shop around on the rifle and buy everything else off amazon.

 

[Beneviolence]

Savage 10T-SR from Cabelas. $649 -$100 mail in rebate. They have the 24" 6.5CM in stock, that's absolutely the one you want. Spend $230 or $300 on a Primary Arms 4-14x44 FFP Mildot (I don't like the R-grid, personally) or SWFA SS 10x, respectively. You're at about $850-900 there. Put the rest into a Caldwell or Harris bipod. I would recommend getting into reloading as you're going to be spending ~$1.10/shot on ammo that's worthwhile and you can bring it down to $0.45 or so by getting some RL-16, Lapua/Hornady brass (keep headstamps consistent), CCI 450 or BR-4 primers, and ELD-M or RDF 140gr projectiles.

Edit: Your comment about 308 being cheaper is a bit off based. You see cheap 308 because it's generic ammo that's not used for precision work. It'll get you ~3MOA but you probably don't want to be struggling to practice shooting MOA or better if your ammo won't even let you. Match quality factory 6.5CM is actually often times cheaper than match quality 308. The same applies for reloading for each; the 6.5CM projectiles are cheaper than 308.

 

[Sig Marine]

Louie12, you sir have a PM

 

[Greg Langelius *]

If you are least likely not to need a rifle capable of more than 600yd, I'd say the .223 is already enough chambering for excellent training.

I suggest the Savage 11VT from Dick's Sporting Goods. It comes with a boresighted Bushnell 4-12x40 scope, and has about everything a rifle needs to get you going for $549 (and Savage gave me a $50 additional rebate) without any big deal mods. A bipod would complete the picture.

Better optics down the road, I replaced my two scopes with the Mueller 8-32x44 Target Scopes (or MilDot), a really good scope for a really smaller price. Medium rings. 20MOA Scope Base. You don't see the Muellers in magazines because they don't do media advertising; they depend on word-of-mouth (like this post) to get the word out. The word is good. The Bushnells went onto my Axis II .30-'06, and my Model 10FCM (the Scout mount was replaced with a conventional one).

Further down the road, a good tactical stock can be had reasonably, the Choate Tactical Stock. Mine has a full-length bedding block and is a rock-solid implement. If you read the reviews, mine is signed JarheadAZ.

I own a pair of these rifles, a .223 and a .308, and solidly recommend them. I shot my .223 in the Berger SW LR Nationals this past February in F T/R at 600yd. It's absolutely capable of meeting that challenge. There are folks here who shoot the .223 all the way out to 1000yd, but I have better chamberings for that (.260, .308, .30-'06, .280).

The Hornady 75gr HPBT-Match bullet/ammunition (Hornady, Black Hills) is perfect for the .223 11VT (the 75gr A-Max/ELD-Match probably won't stabilize in its 1:9" twist). My handload performs essentially the same as these two offerings. Hornady 75gr Steel Match ammunition offers essentially identical performance more cheaply, but is not reloadable. If you do not handload, it's a very good choice.

The .308 is also available if you need something for 1000yd, same rifle, same price, same everything. I'm actually planning on getting a third 11VT (another .308) to serve as a foundation for a barrel swap to .260.

The Savage 10BA is offered for folks who feel that they absolutely must shoot a chassis rifle. They are accurate, and they work, but IMHO, the real improvement is largely cosmetic. For a good shooter with good ammo, the performance differences, if any, are minimal.

Greg

 

[SRPowah]

I have to agree with Greg, .223 might be the way to go if you simply want to get trigger time and rarely go past 600 yards. Shooting any further is probably a moot exercise if you don't have your fundamentals at closer ranges down perfect. Buy used here, or grab a savage, slap a decent enough optic on it (Athlon or SWFA as mentioned), and find a used harris bipod and chassis. Should be able to keep it around $1000 and it will outshoot you as long as the barrel isn't junk from the factory. Down the road, you can rebarrel it yourself.

In this game, you want to have good enough quality all the way around. You can have a great barrel and S&B optic, but find yourself chasing shots because the stock is flexing against the barrel.. (Thanks Remington!)

 

[Louie12]

Just want to say thank you all for the good advice, and pointer. After reading more online, and watching videos I'm thinking of going with the .308. The Remington 700 ADL .308 out the door will cost me a little over $550 out the door. I need to focus first on how to shoot long distance. I really thought about why buy an expensive rifle without a scope have it sit in my office while trying to get a good scope for it. It's not fun having a gun sit at home while you're at the gun range. What's fun about that. Once I reach the 600 yards and get good at it I believe I will have enough money saved if I need to upgrade the gun to a 6.5.

I have a AR 5.56 that I been trying to zero in at 600. it's getting easy but takes time and being patient. Soon I will be able to get there.

Thanks once again you guys for all the advice, and hits on what I should do.

 

[spife7980]

550 means 508 before tax around here. That's pretty steep for an adl, I'd expect it more in the lower 400 range. Wait a month and see if they don't go on a July 4th sale

 

[spife7980]

Louie12 Just as an FYI, cabelas shows the 308 adl varmint for 429 right now

 

[Louie12]

Louie12 Just as an FYI, cabelas shows the 308 adl varmint for 429 right now

thanks for letting me know. I'm heading out to the gun shot to see if I could get it at that price or close to it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm going to get specific, and also try to do it without getting pricey. There is a lot of conflicted thinking about what one needs in order to get up and running at distances longer than varmint distances, and about how much is needed for doing it effectively.

First, the grand majority of the basic rifle product offerings are capable of providing more accuracy than a great proportion of shooters can effectively utilize. In other words, the shooter is very often the key limiting factor. The rifle isn't even the second limiting factor. Good ammo is; with effective load development and good basic handloading technique resolving this issue quite satisfactorily.

The Remington 700 is (assuming there's no manufacturing defect) quite adequate for your needs. The issues develop when one wants to upgrade the rifle, like changing the chambering.

For that, the Savage is a better platform, with barrel and bolt replacements coming under the heading of user-capable upgrades; taking advantage of the barrel nut and replaceable bolt head. The barrel nut allows the barrel to be accurately headspaced without requiring the barrel tenon to be cut to fit by a gunsmith. The hardest part of the process is overcoming the original torque placed on the barrel nut at the Savage factory

The replaceable bolt head allows the user to change the bolt face diameter to accommodate a different cartridge base diameter. Although a vise, barrel blocks, and a barrel nut wrench are needed for barrel replacement, it can be accomplished without the need for any machining; moving this upgrade into the area of a user's capabilities. The bolt head replacement is a relatively simple task involving disassembling the bolt and reassembling the original bolt head with an aftermarket bolt head part.

Handloading can be better learned on the .223, and then, the barrel and bolt head replacement to a .260 Remington will be simple enough The .223 is cheap enough, more than accurate enough, and available enough that I have switched to that chambering in place of the .22LR for practice and learning. Even when the .22LR is available, its performance varies significantly from one factory lot to the next in many cases; which is a lot less likely with handloaded .223.

The .260 is a chambering that offers .30-'06 trajectories with less recoil than the .308 while offering an additional 50-100fps of muzzle velocity over the 6.5CM, something that will help out at the far end of that trajectory. After shooting the 260 in 1000yd F Open competition for several years, I can confidently attest to its 1000yd performance. As 6.5mm velocities go, it falls somewhere in between the 6.5CM and the 6.5-284, providing staunch LR performance without the barrel degrading ferocity of the 6.5-284.

The .308 is also a 1000yd capable chambering, witness the Palma shooters unswerving commitment. But where mandatory chambering restrictions do not apply, the .260 and 6.5CM have become more dominant. A rifle chambered in .308 can be switched to .260 with nothing more than a barrel swap. Same thing with the 6.5CM, but remember, the .260 carries that inherent velocity bonus. If one allows for the additional bolt head replacement, that same .308 can be swapped to .223, although I'm unclear about whether a different detachable box magazine or magazine follower might need replacing too. But the Remington 700 does not allow that user provided bolt head replacement.

Savage makes very capable economy-priced rifle that fits your needs, but it can only be obtained from Dick' Sporting Goods as a proprietary 'special' built to Dick's specifications. It's the Savage 11VT, and it's offered in four chamberings, two of which are .223 and .308. It comes with a Bushnell 4-12x40 scope mounted and boresighted. I got my two for $550 each, a .223 and a .308, and also received a $50 rebate on each from Savage. The .223 will get you to 600yd for sure, and the .308 will get you to 1000yd, also for sure.

Cabelas offers a similar rifle in .308, the Cabelas Savage 10T.

First upgrades, start with a stock and a scope; although the original components will not prevent you from getting out to the range and getting started at distance shooting immediately. They work well enough that I used my .223 in short and middle range competition for several years, including in the Berger SW LR Nationals 600yd MR (Medium Range) Matches this past February. For the Nationals, I replaced the scope with a Mueller 8-32x44 Target Scope, an economy optic that performs a lot more like a premium scope.The 11VT's Bushnell can very adequately serve on a hunting rifle when it is swapped out. The Mueller will resolve 22 caliber bullet holes at 300yd.

Since the Nationals, I also sprang for the Choate Tactical Rifle Stock (Savage 4.4" bolt spacing). This stock is pretty substantial, and may be a bit much for a shooter of decidedly smaller stature (I am 6 1/2ft tall). Adding a Harris style folding bipod completes the ensemble, which can be added piecemeal at your convenience, as budgetary considerations allow.

Such an ensemble will serve you well for quite some time. I use my .223 in this guise, and would only upgrade it further when the time came to replace a worn out barrel, which may never happen at my age, (71). The .308 is for longer than 600yd, and I would actually get another (third) 11VT for an immediate barrel replacement as a conversion to .260, as I like the .308 so much as it is. This trio would very adequately serve any and all of my own particular long range shooting needs; so much so that I am not tempted to go any further with custom rifle construction.

I already have one, a 2001 Savage 10FP that has been rather extensively modified as a .260 F Open 1000yd competitor. It was assembled as one of the Snipers' Hide Ghost Dancer Project Rifles back in 2001. The combination of the .260 chambering and judicious care to preserve the bore have allowed me to enjoy this rifle for the past 16 years.

Where a replacement barrel is needed, I go to Lothar-Walther. These are top quality barrels with SAAMI chambers (no factory ammunition issues, while good barrel making preserves accuracy, and they are the perfect drop-in barrels my KISS philosophy supports. Not cheap, their prices are still very reasonable given their high quality. When handloading and feeding ammunition into a .223 labelled chamber, .223 brass and loads should be adhered to. 5.56 brass and chambers can pose pressure issues in .223 labelled chambers.

The performance of all of my rifles has borne out the viewpoint that my rifles can shoot better than I can, and I've been shooting seriously since 1993.

Greg

 

[Texas10]

Greg has some good advice for you. Shooting long range is not something just anyone can do, especially with an off the shelf package gun, unless you're dropping a lot more coin than your budget allows. That being said, I'd like to point you towards a Savage sold by Cablelas exclusively. It's the model 12FV and comes in four calipers and IS ON SALE NOW FOR $369.00

I have bought a half dozen of these and turned them into great shooters, and for about $800 you can do it with the 12FV.

You can start this project with the Savage 12FV in 223 and it won't be too hard on the wife and kids. It's a 26 inch, 9 twist barrel and can shoot quite accurately to 750 yds with a 69gr SMK tipped Australian Outback ammo at about $9 per 20. For 100 to 200 yds the American Eagle 50 gr Tipped Varmint is phenomenal out of this gun although I have shot it at 500 yds with good consistency, and again costs about $9 per box.

Add a $200 thumbhole stock from EABrown, a 20 moa scope base and a Vortex Crossfield II or a Athlon scope and you will be ringing steel at 600 yds quite easily and still be under budget.

When you've burned out that barrel, spin it off and replace it with a good CBI or Shilen in a different caliper, and simply change the bolt head. I just built two 6mmBR's based on the 12FV action and they are remarkably accurate to 800 yds. The 6mmBR is very efficient at turning powder into FPS, 30 grains will push a 105 grain bullet at 2800 FPS and be absolutely deadly at 800 yds.