First time shooting my own loaded ammo/Report... more advice needed

[michiman]

I recently posted regarding load development for sako trg 6.5cm. I started at the lowest recommended 36.7 gr and loaded up to 42.4 in 0.3 increments (20 rounds). I finally got out to the range today and had some interesting/surprising results:
1. The velocities ranged from 2385-2747 fps and overall group size was less than an inch and probably closer to 0.75 ( this was a huge shocker since the difference in velocity was about 350 fps. Each shot was on its own separate target so I cant give an accurate measurement with my calipers.
2. I did not see any signs of pressure with any of the loads. I was not expecting to shoot all 20 rounds. I've included pictures of my 20th casing as well as my 1st. There were no appreciable differences. Overall the Lapua brass from the loaded ammo had slightly more resistance when extracting vs the hornady factory ammo, not sure why (or if it was all in my head lol). This was noticed immediately even with the lightest load. However, there was no difference between any of the loaded rounds. (see pics below)
3. I measured each shot with my chronograph and did not really see any that were close enough in velocity to call a node.

On to the data
Round number/ Charge (gr)/ Velocity(fps)
1. 36.7, 2389
2. 37.0, 2385
3. 37.3, 2403
4. 37.6, 2415
5. 37.9, 2427
6. 38.2, 2462
7. 38.5, 2477
8. 38.8, 2489
9. 39.1, 2514
10. 39.4, 2533
11. 39.7 2564
12. 40.0, 2565
13. 40.3, 2588
14. 40.6, 2612
15. 40.9, 2631
16. 41.2, 2662
17. 41.5, 2685
18. 41.8, 2704
19. 42.1, 2734
20. 42.4, 2747

Top left target was factory ammo, I was having a hard time getting my chrono to read, it was my first time using my labradar with a muzzle brake, but once i figured it out it performed flawlessly. Round 1 was shot at the large green and orange target, to be honest i was not sure what to expect with my first ever loaded round so i wanted to make sure I hit the target. I then started on then started my string of shots beginning on the 2nd row. However i realized i only had 15 targets remaining on that specific sheet. I ended up shooting 18-20 on the green and orange target as well. All shots are marked with the corresponding number.

Now for the advice portion... Should continue to increase my charge to figure out what max load is? Or should load in 0.1 gr from 41.8-42.4. 3 rounds of each? This should give me more information on SD and ES. Or is there something i am missing?

Thanks for reading this long post!

The first 2 pictures of brass are the lowest load, the 3rd and 4th picture is the hottest load.

And lastly the targets.

 

[BIRDHUNTER]

What powder

 

[michiman]

What powder

Sorry forgot to mention that. It’s H4350. Hornady ELD-m 147 gr, Lapua brass , CCI BR2 primers

Rifle is a Sako trg 22 6.5 cm. 26” barrel.

 

[michiman]

Anyone???

 

[pabrousseau]

I would increase charge weight . find what is max for these components. test with loads you are comfortable with. most consistent ignition and accuracy is close to max charge weight a lot of times in my experience.

 

[pabrousseau]

I don't know what book max is with your components but from the looks of your primers you are not there yet.

 

[clcustom1911]

My personal load with the 147 ELDm and H4350 is 41.5 loaded at 2.83" COAL. 2700 FPS, sub half MOA, and holds 1 MOA as long as I don't fuck up at 800 and beyond.

Prime Brass, Federal 210 Match primers, .003" neck tension.

 

[camotoe]

Just run it at 42.0 until your comfortable reloading.


It's rare for guns to shoot their best at Max anyway. Primers are not a very good way to check pressure

 

[michiman]

According to Hornady reloading manual, 40.3 of H4350 is max, according to Hodgdon online calculator is 42.4.

also, my neck tension is .001"

 

[pabrousseau]

primers are not a good way to check pressure but if their edges are round I doubt you are at max pressure for your cases. you can also experiment with neck tension and federal primers.

 

[army11b1980]

I'm by no means an expert.. but how can you get a SD/ES or find a node by firing one round per charge weight?

I've always loaded 5 rounds per charge weight. I've heard of others doing 3, but I think the more rounds per charge weight would equal more data to give an accurate spread and deviation, which would then show where your nodes are.

You could continue doing 1 round and keep going up to find your max pressure. I personally wouldn't go to MAX pressure. I'd stop at first signs of high pressure, but that's just me.

 

[michiman]

I am new to this so forgive me if I use the wrong verbiage. But, I’ve read about methods of shooting a single shot with varying charges to try to identify nodes by looking for similar velocities between different charges. For example, my 1st and 2nd shot were about 5 FPS apart, my 11th and 12th were only 1 FPS apart despite a charge difference of 0.3 gr. Unfortunately these charge weights gave me very low velocities.

Feel free to chime in, again I am very new to this and am still trying to learn as much as possible.

 

[BIRDHUNTER]

Where I would look is between 41.5 and 42.4. Load them up in .1 increments. Ex. 41,5, 41.6, 41.7 and so on. Scott Satterlee has a good video on how to use this method. Might have been a 6.5 Guys interview? In short, look at your speeds, you should find a flat spot among 3 speeds or so. Choose the middle one. From there you can fiddle with your seating depth to fine tune. One note, I would increase your neck tension to 2 or 3 thou. You might find some increases in Consistency and accuracy. For my son’s rifle in 6.5CM, Lapua SRP brass, I use a .289 bushing with a loaded round @ .292, 142 SMK, 20 thou off, with 41.9gr H4350 = 2780fps. Very accurate!

You may or may not know this but I’ll mention it anyway, any time you crack open a new lot of powder, check you speed! Same brand and different lot can very +/- 5% in burn rate. So if you are running up against the max this becomes very important! Pressure = speed. So if you see a big jump in speed, from a new lot of powder, you can bet you running a lot more pressure and will want to back you load off! If it slow you might want to work up a little but always checking for sings of pressure, ejector swipes, primer creators and flatting.

As mentioned above, Primer craters can be subjective as far as measuring pressure due to the tolerances between the firing pin and firing pin hole. Also the difference between large and small firing pins. There is plenty to read and learn about that subject with a simple search. In any case, looking for swipes, sticky bolt lift, and primer cratering is a much better way to evaluate pressure. I will say this, the most important sign to abide bye is ejector swipes. If you are seeing ejector swipes then you need to back down your load. In any case, look around for more info on that subject. The more you read, learn and ask questions, the safer and more proficient you’ll become at reloading!

 

[army11b1980]

I am new to this so forgive me if I use the wrong verbiage. But, I’ve read about methods of shooting a single shot with varying charges to try to identify nodes by looking for similar velocities between different charges. For example, my 1st and 2nd shot were about 5 FPS apart, my 11th and 12th were only 1 FPS apart despite a charge difference of 0.3 gr. Unfortunately these charge weights gave me very low velocities.

Feel free to chime in, again I am very new to this and am still trying to learn as much as possible.

Well I guess we never stop learning. I hadn't heard of a method like that before. After a little bit of research I can see how it makes sense.
I hope I didn't offend ya. None was meant.

Keep asking questions. There's a lot of really knowledgeable folks in here!

 

[Snuby642]

I may get kicked around a bit but here goes.

1 shot per load on different targets?
There is some software that can compose that I don't have it would be usefull.

I thought the way to do the 1 shot was to put them on 1 target, label each shot and look for a group.

Or 5 of each load per target and measure group size.

Finding a spot where the barrel is not in full swing at time of departure?

Where am I going wrong.

 

[michiman]

I may get kicked around a bit but here goes.

1 shot per load on different targets?
There is some software that can compose that I don't have it would be usefull.

I thought the way to do the 1 shot was to put them on 1 target, label each shot and look for a group.

Or 5 of each load per target and measure group size.

Finding a spot where the barrel is not in full swing at time of departure?

Where am I going wrong.

My goal was to find a max charge. So I started at the lowest recommended charge and worked my way up 1 shot at a time. This was my first time loading any ammo, so admittedly I was a bit nervous pulling the trigger the first time haha.

I could have done 3 shot groups, but I felt like I would just be wasting components by doing so. Also the range I shoot at does a range check every 30 minutes. So it would have been difficult to keep track of each shot, so I used multiple small targets.

 

[michiman]

Where I would look is between 41.5 and 42.4. Load them up in .1 increments. Ex. 41,5, 41.6, 41.7 and so on. Scott Satterlee has a good video on how to use this method. Might have been a 6.5 Guys interview? In short, look at your speeds, you should find a flat spot among 3 speeds or so. Choose the middle one. From there you can fiddle with your seating depth to fine tune. One note, I would increase your neck tension to 2 or 3 thou. You might find some increases in Consistency and accuracy. For my son’s rifle in 6.5CM, Lapua SRP brass, I use a .289 bushing with a loaded round @ .292, 142 SMK, 20 thou off, with 41.9gr H4350 = 2780fps. Very accurate!

You may or may not know this but I’ll mention it anyway, any time you crack open a new lot of powder, check you speed! Same brand and different lot can very +/- 5% in burn rate. So if you are running up against the max this becomes very important! Pressure = speed. So if you see a big jump in speed, from a new lot of powder, you can bet you running a lot more pressure and will want to back you load off! If it slow you might want to work up a little but always checking for sings of pressure, ejector swipes, primer creators and flatting.

As mentioned above, Primer craters can be subjective as far as measuring pressure due to the tolerances between the firing pin and firing pin hole. Also the difference between large and small firing pins. There is plenty to read and learn about that subject with a simple search. In any case, looking for swipes, sticky bolt lift, and primer cratering is a much better way to evaluate pressure. I will say this, the most important sign to abide bye is ejector swipes. If you are seeing ejector swipes then you need to back down your load. In any case, look around for more info on that subject. The more you read, learn and ask questions, the safer and more proficient you’ll become at reloading!

41.5-42.4 seems reasonable.

Also, I used a 0.263 expander mandral on the new brass to give me the .001 neck tension. I have a Redding 0.289 bushing that I have not used yet.

Thoughts on finding a load in that range. Then comparing with 0.001 vs 0.003 neck tension?

 

[Precision Underground]

Hard to gain anything from the target itself but if it were me I would load 5 each of 41.5, 41.7, 41.9, 42.1. Shoot them round robin on 4 different targets all lined up as horizontally as close together as possible. That should tell you most of what you need to know. If you have a 1# jug of powder you are working with I would get an 8# and develop with that. I have seen HUGE variation in 4350 from lot to lot. You may spend a lot of time getting a load and then need a new jug and will be back to square 1.

 

[michiman]

Hard to gain anything from the target itself but if it were me I would load 5 each of 41.5, 41.7, 41.9, 42.1. Shoot them round robin on 4 different targets all lined up as horizontally as close together as possible. That should tell you most of what you need to know. If you have a 1# jug of powder you are working with I would get an 8# and develop with that. I have seen HUGE variation in 4350 from lot to lot. You may spend a lot of time getting a load and then need a new jug and will be back to square 1.

Hmm, I didn’t think of that. I am using a 1# jug. I guess I’ll order an 8# jug too. Also I only bought 100 pieces of Lapua brass. Would you recommend getting another 100? Or does the brass lot vary too?

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Precision Underground]

Hmm, I didn’t think of that. I am using a 1# jug. I guess I’ll order an 8# jug too. Also I only bought 100 pieces of Lapua brass. Would you recommend getting another 100? Or does the brass lot vary too?

Thanks for the advice.

I would think with Lapua you are fine as long as you aren’t trying to shoot bench rest. I don’t obsess over 1/8th of a moa. I don’t do any special tricks or or sort brass or worry about hundredths or a grain of powder. As long as my ammo shoots 3/8-1/2 moa I’m fine with it. Just use good components and be consistent and that’s easily achievable. I do use #450 magnum primers with the Lapua SRP brass. I feel like that large of a case with a SRP needs it. I use them in 5.56 and Valkyrie as well just by default and have always been happy with them.

 

[domdoc]

From this target, I would look at the loads for target #3 and target #12. They are both higher than all the other targets; this might indicate a node, since one indication of a node is that the barrel is at the top of the vibration wave, sending that bullet higher than others which are not loaded at the node. You might shoot 5-shot groups with the loads for those two targets, and look for the one that has the least vertical spread. Minimal vertical spread is another indication of a node. If the horizontal spread is still too much, pick the load you like, and change the seating depth in 0.005" or 0.010" increments, and see if that eliminates the horizontal variation. Do not be hesitant to switch powder, maybe Varget or H4895. Some rifles simply shoot better with different components. It's not predictable.

 

[Precision Underground]

Side note- measure the fired brass headspace and see how much it grew on the first firing. If it grew a lot you may see more velocity/pressure on the second firing. The energy used to stretch the brass on the first firing will have to go somewhere on the second.

 

[michiman]

From this target, I would look at the loads for target #3 and target #12. They are both higher than all the other targets; this might indicate a node, since one indication of a node is that the barrel is at the top of the vibration wave, sending that bullet higher than others which are not loaded at the node. You might shoot 5-shot groups with the loads for those two targets, and look for the one that has the least vertical spread. Minimal vertical spread is another indication of a node. If the horizontal spread is still too much, pick the load you like, and change the seating depth in 0.005" or 0.010" increments, and see if that eliminates the horizontal variation. Do not be hesitant to switch powder, maybe Varget or H4895. Some rifles simply shoot better with different components. It's not predictable.

3 and 12 were light loads. Roughly 2400 and 2500 FPS respectively. However 18 and 20 are also a bit higher than the rest and are in the 2700’s.

 

[Precision Underground]

3 and 12 were light loads. Roughly 2400 and 2500 FPS respectively. However 18 and 20 are also a bit higher than the rest and are in the 2700’s.

I’m not sure you would want to choose the 2 prints that were out of the norm. I would say do the opposite. Most of the others printed in about the same spot. That likely means it will be an easy barrel to load for.

 

[stello1001]

While I think the 1 shot per charge weight might give you some useful info, I think maybe it is best to load 3 or 5 of each charge weight. You'll want to look at the average MV, ES, SD, & group size. This will provide you with much more info to make a better decision.

I think that shots 8-11, 13-16, & 19-20 all had a very similar POI which at least is something you want to look for.

 

[b6graham]

i would go 41.8-43.2. 5 shot groups. hopefully labradar or MSV3 not attached to barrel because of harmonics

guessing somewhere between 42.1 and 42.4 you find a nice spot. and with a 22" barrel that makes sense speed wise

 

[michiman]

i would go 41.8-43.2. 5 shot groups. hopefully labradar or MSV3 not attached to barrel because of harmonics

guessing somewhere between 42.1 and 42.4 you find a nice spot. and with a 22" barrel that makes sense speed wise

The Labrador is not attached. Also it’s a 26” barrel not 22”. I figured 2700-2800 is where I can expect the velocity to be for a 26” barrel. Does that sound right?

 

[camotoe]

2850 ish. Every barrel is different.

 

[camotoe]

You in Michigan

 

[BIRDHUNTER]

41.5-42.4 seems reasonable.

Also, I used a 0.263 expander mandral on the new brass to give me the .001 neck tension. I have a Redding 0.289 bushing that I have not used yet.

Thoughts on finding a load in that range. Then comparing with 0.001 vs 0.003 neck tension?

You already got the .001 data, load up some with the .289 bushing and compare. If that was the first time shooting that brass the second round might print a little differently now that the brass is fireformed to your chamber. Don’t forget to measure a couple of pieces of brass after resizing for headspace. 1 to 2 thou is all you want to set it back.

 

[michiman]

You in Michigan

Yes I am. Are you?

You already got the .001 data, load up some with the .289 bushing and compare. If that was the first time shooting that brass the second round might print a little differently now that the brass is fireformed to your chamber. Don’t forget to measure a couple of pieces of brass after resizing for headspace. 1 to 2 thou is all you want to set it back.

I will probably load up 41.5-43.0 with both neck tensions to compare. 3 of each neck tension at each charge.

 

[BIRDHUNTER]

Yes I am. Are you?



I will probably load up 41.5-43.0 with both neck tensions to compare. 3 of each neck tension at each charge.

That will work. Should get some good data.

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

Michiman, I have not seen it where you’ve said, but how many rounds does this barrel have through it.
I’m also new to long range shooting and reloading. Guys on here (Spife and others) told me that the velocity will increase as the barrel gets more rounds through it. I wasn’t sure if my rookie self would be able to detect and notice minor changes like that. But, just as they said, as the round count increased, the velocity increased, and the rifle shot better and better. I now have around 400 rounds through my John Hancock, and I’ve seen the bullet speed increase by about 35-40 FPS in just be last 100 rounds. It’s now shooting 2865 with 42.4 gr. of H4350 behind a 140 gr ELD-M. And if I do my part, it’s dead nuts on every shot.
My point is, if it’s a new barrel, your numbers may change, hopefully like mine, for the better.
Keep working on it, and keep letting these guys help you. You’ll get there. Then it’s nothing but smiles and giggles every time you pull the trigger.

 

[michiman]

Michiman, I have not seen it where you’ve said, but how many rounds does this barrel have through it.
I’m also new to long range shooting and reloading. Guys on here (Spife and others) told me that the velocity will increase as the barrel gets more rounds through it. I wasn’t sure if my rookie self would be able to detect and notice minor changes like that. But, just as they said, as the round count increased, the velocity increased, and the rifle shot better and better. I now have around 400 rounds through my John Hancock, and I’ve seen the bullet speed increase by about 35-40 FPS in just be last 100 rounds. It’s now shooting 2865 with 42.4 gr. of H4350 behind a 140 gr ELD-M. And if I do my part, it’s dead nuts on every shot.
My point is, if it’s a new barrel, your numbers may change, hopefully like mine, for the better.
Keep working on it, and keep letting these guys help you. You’ll get there. Then it’s nothing but smiles and giggles every time you pull the trigger.

I am currently at 240 rounds. (200 prior to my last range session, I had a box of Hornady ammo for some friends to shoot).

The rifle is very accurate. I will push it a little hotter the next time I go out.