First venture into LR shooting help

[RancidSumo]

I've never done any long range shooting but I'm looking to get into it this summer. The problem is that I'm on a limited budget as most of my money goes towards college. What I am looking for is what the best option would be for a complete set up that would still come in under $1500. I know that isn't much but its just about all I will probably be able to scrape up for it.


I've been doing a lot of reading these last few days and it definitely seems like the .308 is the way to go and I'm thinking on a Remington 700 action. Thats about as far as I've got since from then on, everything seems to get fuzzy.

First, barrel length. Should I got with twenty or twenty six inches? Why?

Second, is there anything on the 700 SPS rifle that you feel HAS to be replaced right away? Is this even a good starting rifle?

As to the scope rings and base, it seems like there is a huge range in price on these items but at what point am I wasting my money? Which ones would you recommend?


Finally, and what is turning out to be the most confusing and flat our irritating, the scope. I know a few things I want. I know I want mil dots and .1 mil turrets. I know I want a scope with a FFP. What I don't know is how much magnification I need or want to reach out to 1000yds. Also, how cheap is it possible to go and still get glass that doesn't suck. I've shot with shitty glass before and I know it is no fun.

If I count on $600 for the rifle and assuming I don't need to upgrade anything on it, that leaves just under $1000 for the scope. That isn't anywhere near what I would like but it is all I can manage. I've looked at the Bushnell 4200 series as well as the Viper PST which both meet those requirements within my budget but will those be good enough or will I just be throwing away money? What would you buy in this price range?


I know that is a lot of issues to sort through but I'd appreciate any help you can offer with any of it.
Thanks.

Edit: I'm not sure where this should go as it has both rifle questions as well as scope questions but if the staff/mods/experience members would prefer me to split it up into two threads, I will.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RancidSumo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never done any long range shooting but I'm looking to get into it this summer. The problem is that I'm on a limited budget as most of my money goes towards college. What I am looking for is what the best option would be for a complete set up that would still come in under $1500. I know that isn't much but its just about all I will probably be able to scrape up for it.

<span style="color: #CC0000">Plenty of people have gotten started for less. </span>

I've been doing a lot of reading these last few days and it definitely seems like the .308 is the way to go and I'm thinking on a Remington 700 action. Thats about as far as I've got since from then on, everything seems to get fuzzy.

<span style="color: #CC0000">If you're on a budget, look at a 223 instead. Cheaper ammo = more trigger time and they are capable of going to a thousand. It's just very difficult is all

</span>

First, barrel length. Should I got with twenty or twenty six inches? Why?

<span style="color: #CC0000">Barrel length really doesn't matter much with a 308, but if you want to try the 223 I suggested, the 26" is king because you will want and NEED every bit of velocity you can squeeze out of your equipment for those super long range shots. With a 308, you could have an 18" barrel and still hit farther than 1K if you, the shooter, are capable of pulling it off. I know Lowlight is. </span>

Second, is there anything on the 700 SPS rifle that you feel HAS to be replaced right away? Is this even a good starting rifle?

<span style="color: #CC0000">The stocks on the Remington series are terrible. The Hogue one on the 20" bbl models is the best of the factory stocks because of it's pillar bedding but it is stil flimsy as heck. It is doable though, and for a budget minded shooter, it will do for a while.</span>

As to the scope rings and base, it seems like there is a huge range in price on these items but at what point am I wasting my money? Which ones would you recommend?

<span style="color: #CC0000">Get the EGW 20 MOA base for 40 dollars and a set of the appropriate height rings from Burris. Get their Extreme Tactical (six screws) and you will be very hapy you did. They are tough and won't fail you. The cost $60 but are very well spent money, even though te name is very corny sounding. These two items total 100. </span>

Finally, and what is turning out to be the most confusing and flat our irritating, the scope. I know a few things I want. I know I want mil dots and .1 mil turrets. I know I want a scope with a FFP. What I don't know is how much magnification I need or want to reach out to 1000yds. Also, how cheap is it possible to go and still get glass that doesn't suck. I've shot with shitty glass before and I know it is no fun.

<span style="color: #CC0000">You ask alot of a scope for such a low budget, but lucky for you, it can be done! 700 dollars get's you this:
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16x50-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44565.aspx and they are wonderful optics. I do not know if it is an FFP scope though, that is something you will have to research. Another great item is the SWFA brand SuperSniper scopes. They really are great products and at an awesome price. You might consider changing your wants to save some money for something like this that will certaily get you by for a while. </span>

If I count on $600 for the rifle and assuming I don't need to upgrade anything on it, that leaves just under $1000 for the scope. That isn't anywhere near what I would like but it is all I can manage. I've looked at the Bushnell 4200 series as well as the Viper PST which both meet those requirements within my budget but will those be good enough or will I just be throwing away money? What would you buy in this price range?

<span style="color: #CC0000">So if you count on 600 for the rifle, and 100 dollars for the rings/base you're right at 700. 1500 minus 700 equals 800. That will easily get you the Vortex scope I linked you to. And the last 100 will probably be consumed by shipping costs and taxes on all this stuff. Which is really nothing you can do to change this but now you are at a very rough point because you have really no funds for ammo to shoot this wonderful starter rifle you have built up and put so much money time and effort into. The one most overlooked thing when someone budget minded builds a rifle, is ammo cost. That stupid stuff is really friggin' expensive!

Which is another reason why I suggest the SWFA scope as a compromise. It wil get you about $400 extra in your pocket to spend on ammo. Which, for a 308, isn't very much at all. So there comes in the 223 suggestion I made earlier. But, here is a solution to both of these problems that lets you keep the 308 as an option, you buy reloading supplies with that 400 dollars. It would take you roughly 150 to get your press and dies if you go a cheap rout like the Lee single stage press, which is a fine press to start with. And the other 50 will be for your dies for the caliber you choose. Now you need brass. Buy a couple bags of 50 shells of Winchester brass and call it good for the time being. Also, pick up whatever isn't used at the range, but ask people first as a common curtousy(sp?) before just taking it. And then you will need powder, primers, and bullets. For a box of 100 of 175SMK you should expect to pay like 40 dollars. And the primers/powder will have a haz mat fee if you have it shipped to you so find a dealer near yo that carries what you need. My numbers are just ballpark estimates so you will need to find out exactly what it's going to cost you by shopping around. MidwayUSA is pretty good on prices. That should give you a great estimate.

Read up on reloading, buy a 12 dollar book on it, read the reloading forum here and then figure out exactly what you need to start off with from there. And the best part about it, eah bullet will cost a TON less than if you were to buy them from the factory. It pays for itself very quickly and many many times over. You won't be dissapointed.</span>

I know that is a lot of issues to sort through but I'd appreciate any help you can offer with any of it.
Thanks.

<span style="color: #CC0000">I hope this helps you out or I just wasted like 20 minuts of my night

I gurantee there will have been 5 other people posting short answers before I click the post button

</span>

Edit: I'm not sure where this should go as it has both rifle questions as well as scope questions but if the staff/mods/experience members would prefer me to split it up into two threads, I will.

<span style="color: #CC0000">This forum is fine, I doubt anyone will move this thread honestly. You're good to go! </span>
</div></div>

<span style="color: #6600CC">And just because I love purple,
-Dylan </span>

 

[califflash]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Since you're in school still I will repeat some advice I have seen here time and time again. By decent equipment that you won't be constantly wanting to replace and save as much money as you can to spend on ammo. I graduated in the not too distant past and know how tight money is, especially now a days.

Get a used 700 or savage or tikka. The 700's are more hit and miss out of the box as far as accuracy goes and the tikka's are known for out of the box accuracy. This scope is an excellent value. There are better ones out there but it is what I use on my tikka scout and is sufficient for shooting 500-750 yards. I can do 1000 but that's pushing it between the scope and my abilities.

If you absolutely want new stuff. Get a Tikka T3 Scout/Super Varmint/Varmint or Remy 700 SPS SD-AAC. You should find these for between 800-1000. Then, based on reviews not my personal experience, get a SS 10x or 17x fixed power with mil/mil or moa/moa. Finally get some $60 rings, sock full of rice, ammo and go shooting.

 

[JJ1234567]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Very helpful reply!

Although, I did want to ask one question, when your talking about factory ammo costs, what brands were you refering too? From the looking Ive done for match grade ammo (in this case federal gold medal) the prices were within 50 cents to being 6$ a box MORE for .223 (cheaper than dirt). Just wondered if you were talking general ammo prices etc.

 

[RancidSumo]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Thanks for the help so far everyone. I've still got a little while before I buy to read up here and try not to screw everything up when I do.

One thing I should add is I am already set up for reloading. I already reload .223 and numerous handgun calibers so all it would take to get into .308 is a set of dies.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeremiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very helpful reply!

Although, I did want to ask one question, when your talking about factory ammo costs, what brands were you refering too? From the looking Ive done for match grade ammo (in this case federal gold medal) the prices were within 50 cents to being 6$ a box MORE for .223 (cheaper than dirt). Just wondered if you were talking general ammo prices etc.</div></div>

<span style="color: #CC0000">***Go to the last section (underlined at bottom of post) if you dgf about all the technicalities and just want the straight end product*** </span>

Black Hills 223 Remington 77grn SMK Match Ammo = $52 for 50 rounds which equals $1.04 per shot. Over the course of 4000 rounds (my personal yearly amount fired total in all firearms) this equates to $4160

Black Hills 308 Winchester 175grn HPBT Match Ammo = $31 for 20 rounds which equals $1.55 per shot. Over the course of 4000 rounds fired, you spend $6200

That's a difference of 2040 dollars. This is alot to fire but you can easily see how big of an effect ammo costs have over the long run. You may be thinking, I won't shoot that much in a year, so this doesn't apply to me. Well, it still does, because eventually you will reach the point where you've fired 4000 rounds of 308 and wondered if you could've had that fancy NighForce scope you wanted or not.

Now for reloaded numbers.

223 Remington Requires:
-Brass: Let's just use the Winchester brass as an example and say we buy 500 shells for reloading. Since each case can take multiple reloadings, and you don't have to load them all at once, the initial investment will pay off in the long run. SO that's $115 for 500 shells. Or .23 cents per shell.
-Primers: Small Rifle, already sounds better than Large Rifle. These are cheap anyways, but lets just get all 4K at once here, that's $124 for 4000. Whis is 0.031 cents per pop.
-Powder: Here's a debatable topic because the powder charge will vary depending on the shooter, rifle, and reload maxs. I'll use 24 grains of Varget, that's $23.50 per pound of the stuff. Considering there's 7000 grains in a pound, you will spend 0.081 cents per powder charge.
-Bullets: keeping it with the 77 bthp that Black Hills use, this will cost $110 per 500 bullets. That's .22 cents per bullet.

So, overall we have: 0.23 cents per shell, 0.031 cents per primer, 0.081 cents per powder charge, and 0.22 cents per bullet. that's 0.562 cents per round for a shot you can PERFECTLY TAYLOR for your rifle and conditions. You can't do that with factory stuff, but anyways, that's 2248 dollars for the 4000k rounds. And keep in mind, that <span style="text-decoration: underline">DOESN'T FACTOR IN THE FACT YOU RE-USE YOUR BRASS!</span>

Okay, so what do we do about that little fact? Well, since we can re-use that brass like 4 times (at the very least, our lots lasted us 6 firings on average and we load them very hot) so we will devide the cost per shell by four. Now we have 0.0575 per shell. So new equation, 0.0575+0.031+0.081+0.22=0.3895 cents per round. So we're saving obviously over factory loaded ammo. Now, over the course of 4k rounds, this means a total of 1558. Thats a ton less than factory loaded. 4160 minus 1558 equals 2602 dollars saved over the course of 4k rounds. That's huge.

Now 308 Winchestersame theories as above apply, I won't re-type them though)
-Brass: 346/1000=0.34699 ---> round to .347 per shell, devide by four for re-use equation = 0.08675 ---> round to 0.0868 per shell.
-Primer: (LARGE RIFLE PRIMERS) = 0.031 per primer (yes the cost stays the same; CCI primers used in these models btw..)
-Powder: (Same powder as above, but larger charge quantity) 45grn of varget per charge, 0.151 cents per charge.
-Bullets: 175grn SMK = 0.378 cents per pill.

Totaling 0.6468 per pop. And at 4000 rounds, that equals 2587.2 dollars.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">So Overall:</span>
Factory Match 308 = 1.55 per shot (6200 per 4k rounds)
Similar Home-Made 308 Match ammo = 0.6468 per shot (2587.2 per 4k rounds)

Factory Match 223 = 1.04 per shot (4160 per 4k rounds)
Similar Home-Made 223 Match ammo = 0.3895 per shot (1558 per 4k rounds)

So It's clearly visible how much you can save in the long run by chosing the 223 remington over the 308 winchester. And when you look at the prices of reloading compared to buying factory ammo, well, the numbers should speak for themselves.

 

[RancidSumo]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Is a 10x scope good enough or do I need more (I'd say 1000yds is the top end of what I'm looking at)? I'm thinking about a NF NSX 2.5-1010x32 and this is how I'm considering getting it-

I've got an idea floating around right now that I could just buy a scope for now (NF or Leupold) and put it on a rifle I have (maybe my AR) and then later buy the rifle. The reason I'm thinking the scope first is 1) I could still use it where as a rifle with no scope is worthless and 2) That way I wouldn't be tempted to buy a less than ideal scope.

The thought is I could continue to work on marksmanship skills and using the scope etc. with a rifle I have currently and don't need the .5MOA capability of a new rifle to do that.

 

[scotharr]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

college kid huh? Plenty of good comments above, my suggestion:

Get a Savage .223REM with 26" barrel...best bang for the buck, extremely accurate, and the 223REM is a cheap/very accurate cartridge out to 600.

A Weaver 3-9x40 Tactical scope would be a good moderately priced mil/mil scope.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Here is what I'm doing right now:

I don't have any constant source of income, I baby-sit on occasion, sometimes get jobs from family members, and otherwise gain all my money through birthdays, good grades per report card, and Christmas. So pretty much four times a year I get paid. This means that I save up for many years before making a purchase.

About 5 (or six maybe now) years ago I wanted a hunting rifle. I bought a sporter in 300 WSM and LOVED it. I shot a whole 200 rounds the entire time I owned it (one year lol) and then sold it at a gun show to pay for something new. At this time I had also recently sold a mountain bike I was no longer riding. So these two items combined were roughly 800 dollars. I had some extra money though from saving up so probably closer to 900 dollars. I don't remember honestly.

But anyways, I wanted a 700 SPS-T in 308. I took some stellar advice from another member to buy a 22lr and practice my fundamentals with it. I was hesitant but researched it and took the advice. I bought a Savage MkII-TR for like 420 total ro something like that through my FFL. Then I ordered rings and bases and, after a ton of research, a Super Sniper 10x from SWFA. I was going to buy a cheap Vortex but decided the 10x would be better for my "plans" so I bolted it up to the savage and know what? Couldn't love what I'm doing any more than I do.

I get out to the range every weekend and shoot about a hundred rounds and it's very cheap and very effective trigger time. In fact, I already broke the thousand mark after only owning the gun for two months

That "plan" was to spend what I was comfortable with on the scope now, and then switch it over to the 308 whenever I get it. That's still probably what I'll do, but I'm also contemplating putting the centerfire off for a while because I have fallen in love with rimfire

My overll scope goal is the exact one I lnked you to in my first post here because it offers eveything I want and is much cheaper than most other scope I've seen. FFP and matching the turrets with the reticle are nice features to have but they aren't really worth the expense to me right now. I am smart, and not very lazy when it comes to shooting, so a little multiplication and a fixed power scope aren't too big of a deal for me. You might be different than me, in fact you probably are, but I would say either take my advice and do what I outlined, or buy the NF like you said, and keep saving. I did what you mentioned (kind of, similar but slighly different), and am very happy I did.

 

[tacshooter223]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

16 year old in high school working at target. With $1500 you can get a savage 12. .223 (or .308) a vortex viper and a choate stock.
Will do something like this, with even a new shooter such as myself.

~.4 MOA

Also bought some reloading stuff and lots of ammo.

Although for you buying the nice scope and putting it on the AR for now would work extremely well.
You can still get pretty damn good accuracy out of ARs with a decent upper.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Rem tactical
Egw 20 moa base
Bushnell elite 4200
Xtreme 30mm low rings.


Get all that for about 1,000 off the classifieds here. That leaves you with enough for a case of ammo

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Before becoming a long range precision marksman, it could pay to develop the precision side of the equation. Most shooters who are approaching precision marksmanship for the first time will soon discover that most factory rifles in decent operating condition are capable of shooting to a higher standard than their drivers can drive them.

With this in mind, I'm going to make a very common recommendation. I think you should get a reliable, inexpensive .22LR bolt action repeater. I suggest the Savage MKIIF.

Start testing it with many brands/models of .22LR ammunition to find which it likes best (starting from the least expensive end, price has no bearing of a rifle's preferences). Keep the equipment simple and economical at this stage. To become a shooter, you need to shoot lots, and at about 5 cents a shot, you simply can't beat the .22lr, especially on a college student's budget. Good centerfire ammo would be costing ten, maybe twenty times per shot. Shooting cheapo centerfire ammo is slightly less beneficial than not shooting at all; it becomes impossible to figure what caused the miss: ammo or shooter.

When you can cover ten shots at 50ft with a quarter, you have qualified for the BSA Rifle Marksmanship merit badge. Now move the target to 50yd and do it again, ten covered by a quarter. At that point you have become truly competitive as a match shooter. Not world championship grade, but competitive.

Mark this well, nobody gets good on their own. Find a good coach.

You are now shooting your .22 at a range that corresponds to similar performance with a centerfire at maybe 100yd, maybe a little further. The neat part about all this is you can accomplish significant distance performance without requiring a facility that stretches on and on forever.

Keep stretching the distance with the .22LR, and you'll begin developing the skills that correspond to LR precision shooting. By the time you're proficient (hitting all shots inside an 8" circle) at 200yd-250yd, your LR skills are adequate to take it to 1000yd with a centerfire rifle. Until you can, your best bet is to stick with the .22.

Once you're shooting beyond 50yd, you'll soon recognize that marksmanship is marksmanship, whatever the distance; but precision and reliable accuracy at significant distance is an accomplishment that builds in the area of wind shooting skills atop that indispensably solid foundation of basic precision marksmanship.

The way I learn wind skills is by shooting at first without any effort to accommodate the wind. Allowing the wind to do its deed provides first hand knowledge of the magnitude of the problem. We see the natural environmental indicators of wind direction and velocity, and that wind's direct consequence becomes clearly associated with those indicators. From there, it's becomes easier to see how accommodation and compensation needs to be applied.

Greg

 

[sinister]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

You already have a rifle and scope suitable for 1,000-yard competition.

You live within easy driving distance of the Ben Avery ranges.

Enroll and shoot in Arizona Rifle and Pistol Association 1,000-yard matches. Ask Mid Tompkins (a long time US Palma Team shooter and coach, a Phoenix native) for help.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

One of the truly great.

 

[RancidSumo]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Ok I've finally got some time over my last few days of spring break to answer address a few comments.

First, I already have an excellent .22. It is a .22WMR but close enough and I've put a ton of rounds through it. It is an open sight CZ 452FS and I routinely hit prairie dogs with it well over 100yds. At 50yds with my dads Savage .17 and a 9x scope I can put five under a dime (never shot it at 100 on paper, only prairie dogs). I've also had some basic marksmanship training by attending an Appleseed shoot and scoring 215 so I've got lots of tools to work on the fundamentals which I agree is the most important and was the first step I took.

Secondly, I don't live close to Phoenix at all. I'm in northern Colorado.

Finally, I've put some more thought into the AR idea. I'm pretty sure I'm going to sell my M1 Garand to a friend and I can sell my current standard AR upper (BCM 16" government profile). Using those two to offset the cost, I can get a BCM SS410 free float upper (either 16" or 18"). Then I can get the NF 2.5-10 NSX and a LaRue mount (or any other mounting system, it doesn't really matter at this point) to throw on there. I've seen groups that people have been putting up with these uppers and hand loads tailored to them well under 1MOA. With that and some 75gr bullets, or 77/80 since I can just load it single shot, I should be able to push it to at least 600 but I don't think 800-1000 is out of the range of possibility (feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong).

All that would come out to only about $1200 out of pocket and I think would work well for starting out. What do you think?

 

[rrflyer]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Not a bad plan but remember semi auto guns are harder to shoot acurately and its easy to just start sending bullets downrAnge without making sure your really hitting the fundamentAls.

If you've got 300 left over then a membership to the online training here would be a good investment.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Why do you want the 2.5-10x NXS? Just curious

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Alright, I stand corrected. I still believe a .22LR is called for, but you have already stated other preferences. I respect that.

Shooting a rimfire at or near its distance limits is still a good way to gain LR wind experience without needing to shoot into the next county. The WMR simply means you need to shoot further to obtain the same benefit, and there's also the issue of copper in the barrel. What you have chosen will also work, and the choices have always been yours to make.

The .308 you own, as others have suggested, is clearly adequate for your needs, assuming it's in proper working order. Give the bore a good soak with copper solvent, verify the crown is good, and that the bedding and optical mounts are secure. Assuming the barrel is floated, periodically sweep the barrel channel to ensure no foreign matter has crept in and placed the barrel into unintentional contact with the stock.

Optics may involve trade-offs; cost being the key factor. While there is little substitute for good optics, a prohibitive cost may keep you from getting started. In that light, cost can be counterproductive.

Whatever you get, magnification, light gathering, and light transmission are key issues. I believe that a variable with an upward magnification limit of 24x or so is reasonable. At 1000yd, mirage can limit the the usefulness of magnification to about 18x, but clear days do happen, and higher mags can be used with greater clarity at less distance. Objective diameters bear on light gathering, with larger ones allowing use under less light. I make do with 40-42mm objectives, but I also tend to avoid low light conditions. Optical quality bears on light transmission. More money is supposed to mean less light losses and sharper images.

Many favor a shorter barrel and make it work. IMHO, shooting LR with a short barrel is akin to tying an arm behind your back, and samesame for semi's. The true LR crowd has always favored bolt guns, and their reasoning behind that has been long proven sound.

Finally, with economics being an issue, investigate hand reloading. It allows tuning loads for accuracy as well as ammunition cost benefits. The cost of the equipment is not insubstantial, and maybe this is a bad time to be considering such expenditures. Perhaps the proverb about buying the cow and drinking the milk may have some consequence here.

To my ancient mind, selling off a Garand is akin to sacrificing one's firstborn..., unless it's a basket case to begin with. The only reason I might consider selling off a Garand would be to afford a better one.

First, there are Garands; and then there are other rifles.

...And if a man hath no Garand; let him therefore go forth and sell his cloak, that he may obtain one...

Greg

 

[RancidSumo]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

I like the idea of shooting the .22 I have out to 200yds to get used to wind and I'll start that as soon as I have access to a rifle range again.

I don't have a .308 already though. The AR I have is a 5.56.

I like the NSX because with the zero-stop and mil turrets it has pretty much everything I want in a scope and it is very high quality. Plus, if it does go on my AR I don't really want a massive scope. If 10x isn't good enough to get out to those longer ranges though let me know that so I can reconsider.

 

[scotharr]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

A 20" AR out to 600 is great fun and my family regularly use one for F-Class. But, here are some things to consider:

1. 5.56/223REM at 800-1000 yards: you'll be all over the target, barely supersonic and a general nuisance to others.

Oh, and that's with a 26" barrel.
2. An AR gas system mandates lighter loads (less pressure & velocity) than a bolt gun: not exactly the direction you want to go for a cartridge that is already under-powered. Likewise, a 16" barrel is the wrong direction.
2. My experience is that the 223REM is more affected by the wind than 308WIN: contrary to what some ballistics tables may indicate. That's not necessarily a bad thing: great way to learn to read the wind.
3. A bolt action is a better long-range platform: including for 223REM. While ARs can shoot very accurately, a bolt action is the hands-down choice if "best-accuracy" is the goal.

What I'd suggest:

-Sell the AR & Garand
-Get a Savagee 223REM Varmint or match bolt action.
-Get one of the nice $300-$400 scopes: Weaver or Super Sniper for example.
-Spend more money on ammunition: not the rifle. You will need to reload if you starting shooting much.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

Dang, I keep getting it wrong. Tacsniper223 got it right, though.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: First venture into LR shooting help

I don't personally believe that th 10x scopes are much good to the shooter much past maybe 6-700 yards... But many people do it and have done it and also are doing it at 1000 with a simple 10x. It is doable, but not very "luxurious" if you're the one behind the scope. I have no hands on experiance of this, but I have looked at targets at 1k through mine and I can't understand how others do it. Which is why I ask why just the 2.5-10x NXS. Because I would suggest something with more zoom but with a decent sized objective. The 56mm is beast, but not unbearable IMHO