PRS Talk Fixing PRS classes, New Class: Spec Class

[16 Gauge]

You lost me at Savage, no bag other than gamechanger, and Harris.

Savage rifles are garbage. You can't polish that turd enough to make it a good reliable rifle. I've tried.

A gamechanger is not a rear bag, and a TAB Gear or other proper rear bag is around $20-$30.

Let's face it, Harris bipods just suck. They are out of square, made from sheet metal, and break fairly often.

As far as scopes, the Diamondback is basically unusable as far as glass and consistent turrets, and the Athlon Ares BTR lists at $1000.

Barrels wear out. Telling someone to replace their rifle when the barrel burns out is stupid. I can rebarrel a Remington or Savage for less than $400. Limiting it to only 6.5 Creedmoor is also stupid. That barrel lasts roughly 2500 rounds, and some people shoot that in a year.

This is how our local matches are set up for scoring.

This is taken from wycoprl.com

1. All competitors will begin the season “unclassified”. The competitors’ first three scores of the season will be used to classify each competitor. These classifications will carry over to each new season. The class tiers are as follows:
   • “A” Class – Scores greater than 80% of match-winner
   • “B” Class – Scores greater than 55% but less than or equal to 80% of match-winner, two consecutive match results exceeding 80% will result in competitor moving to A-class
   • “C” Class – Scores less than or equal to 55% of match-winner, two consecutive match results exceeding 55% will result in competitor moving to B-class
     You can “class up” but you cannot “class down”. This means that if you initially classify as a “B” shooter based on your first three (3) scores and continue to improve throughout the year, resulting in two (2) consecutive match scores over 80%, you are now permanently an “A” shooter. Certain circumstances may allow a shooter to “class down” and will be handled on a case-by-case basis.
2. WYCO PRL points will be derived from the individual match scores. The top shooter for each match will receive 100 WYCO points, each shooter will receive WYCO points as a percentage of the match winners’ points.
   Example:
   • • Match winner gets 69 out of 81 possible points – Receives 100 WYCO points
     • The next highest shooter gets 67 points – 67 is 97.101% of 69 – 97.101 WYCO points
     • 13th place shooter gets 41 points – 41 is 59.420% of 69 – 59.420 WYCO points

Kind of similar to the guys shooting sporting clays. You level up based on score per match. Number of guys competing in each event and the number of events you shoot in a year.

 

[308pirate]

Sure, so for me my definition of "success" is that I would like to be able to complete the course of fire (or at least feel like I could have if I'd have been more practiced) with the equipment I came with and establish a time or a position among similarly equipped or skilled shooters so I have some sort of metric for improvement. I don't want to show up and be challenged so far beyond my means and feel like the skill ceiling is unobtainable or find the learning curve is just a straight vertical line

Those expectations can be reasonable or unreasonable depending on the pre-existing skill level of the new shooter. If the "new" shooter is your typical rifle owner, those are unreasonable expectations. If the "new" shooter already has an adequate baseline set of rifle marksmanship skills, those could be pretty reasonable and realistic expectations.

What are baseline rifle marksmanship skills in this context? That's debatable but in my opinion the rck bottom is

• Having at least a working knowledge of external ballistics/trajectory. Basically having a dope card and at least some level of confirmation at meaningful distances. I'd call 300 - 600 yards meaningful
• Being able to shoot inside a 1.5 MOA circle on demand from the prone position
• Understanding how one's scope works

Anyone who is lacking in any of those three is going to have that vertical learning curve you're talking about. They're just going to be fucking lost. Sorry to be crass, that's just how it is.

When I meet someone at their very first USPSA match my advice is real simple: your goal is to not shoot yourself, not shoot anyone else, and to not get disqualified. If after that you like it, we can work on everything else.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

The fun of shooting steel is shooting steel. Killing dirt is not fun whether it is killed with a $500 mass produced rifle or a $10,000 dollar custom, with a $5000.00 scope mounted on top.

Point, no matter how cheap you make entry level classes, if the targets are so small and the stages so difficult, and beginners are hampered by limiting the rifles they are allowed to shoot, new shooters will not be endeared of or want too continue the sport.

if the stages are not made workable for the new shooters, they won’t hang.

Bluntly, the old “you won’t hit much but you’ll have a ball” is plain B - - - - - -T! No one and I do mean no one, enjoys being made to look like a fool.

 

[Rob01]

That’s it! 5 min par times, 10 moa steel minimum size and everyone gets a trophy at the end! Eureka!!! The perfect match.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

That’s it! 5 min par times, 10 moa steel minimum size and everyone gets a trophy at the end! Eureka!!! The perfect match.

Not exactly. But half MOA at 1200 yards, might be just a bit beyond joe sixpack’s 6.5 Carcano

 

[Rob01]

Well if a guy is showing up with a Carcano then he didn’t do his homework and he will learn that at his first match.

 

[AManWearingAHat]

Those expectations can be reasonable or unreasonable depending on the pre-existing skill level of the new shooter. If the "new" shooter is your typical rifle owner, those are unreasonable expectations. If the "new" shooter already has an adequate baseline set of rifle marksmanship skills, those could be pretty reasonable and realistic expectations.

What are baseline rifle marksmanship skills in this context? That's debatable but in my opinion the rck bottom is

• Having at least a working knowledge of external ballistics/trajectory. Basically having a dope card and at least some level of confirmation at meaningful distances. I'd call 300 - 600 yards meaningful
• Being able to shoot inside a 1.5 MOA circle on demand from the prone position
• Understanding how one's scope works

Anyone who is lacking in any of those three is going to have that vertical learning curve you're talking about. They're just going to be fucking lost. Sorry to be crass, that's just how it is.

When I meet someone at their very first USPSA match my advice is real simple: your goal is to not shoot yourself, not shoot anyone else, and to not get disqualified. If after that you like it, we can work on everything else.

I think those are reasonable standards and expectations to have. I recognize there is a challenge in balancing something that is somewhat beginner friendly versus diluting the skill required beyond the point where it is meaningful / interesting. I think what you outlined though is a reasonable expectation that can be taught and learned in an afternoon which speaks to its veracity as a baseline level of skill for PRS. I don't think PRS is a good fit for anyone's first rifle game.

No need to apologize, I understand. I really appreciate the discussion, it's interesting to think about this from my own novice perspective on PRS and work through it from first principles.

An aside,

I wonder, what is your opinion on the decline in the more.... not sure what the right word is... technical(?) shooting disciplines among young / newer shooters like 3 Position Small Bore or even 10m air gun. I attribute my solid grip on shooting fundamentals to my time with both those disciplines and still practice them regularly. It seems once upon a time every small range had a league for either one or both at some point and a youth program to compliment it, and now those leagues are in rapid decline and the ones that do still exist are mostly old timers, unless you're lucky enough to have a good 4H program. It seems a lot more new shooters now enter the arena with 0 formal instruction and as a result operate at a generally lower level of competence unless they seek out instruction.

 

[kriller134]

@lowlight I listened to you last podcast and am curious if factory ammo is really that big of a deal vs hand loading? I mean factory match ammo is pretty damn good these days. For me I know it’s not the ammo holding me back.

 

[Lowlight]

I think so,

try it, and dont try to match them, make the best in class handload, pick the best bullet, then get a box off the shelf and look

factory ammo is good, but its not tuned to the shooter like a handload, that group size you adjusted fixed some of you the factory ammo would show.

 

[DUTCH84]

Maybe this has been mentioned before, maybe not. But instead of tactical, open class or whatever, go on shooter experience. First year participants in one class and everyone else in another. Even if you buy the most expensive sh*t, doesnt make you the best. Does it give you an advantage...yes. But you still need to learn how to use it. "Fear the man with one bag". Know your equipment. Learn it, get proficient, this only comes with time and experience.

 

[308pirate]

I wonder, what is your opinion on the decline in the more.... not sure what the right word is... technical(?) shooting disciplines among young / newer shooters like 3 Position Small Bore or even 10m air gun. I attribute my solid grip on shooting fundamentals to my time with both those disciplines and still practice them regularly. It seems once upon a time every small range had a league for either one or both at some point and a youth program to compliment it, and now those leagues are in rapid decline and the ones that do still exist are mostly old timers, unless you're lucky enough to have a good 4H program. It seems a lot more new shooters now enter the arena with 0 formal instruction and as a result operate at a generally lower level of competence unless they seek out instruction.

That's a very good question. I got my start in rifle marksmanship through NRA Highpower Rifle and CMP Service Rifle in the late 90s so I understand where you're coming from.

But I got my start in pistol shooting later on (2007 or so) and definitely not through the traditional bullseye route but through the lens of self defense. Competition came later as I gained understanding of what it takes to be competent with one.

We can take it to PM to not derail this thread

 

[SWFShooter]

Maybe this has been mentioned before, maybe not. But instead of tactical, open class or whatever, go on shooter experience. First year participants in one class and everyone else in another. Even if you buy the most expensive sh*t, doesnt make you the best. Does it give you an advantage...yes. But you still need to learn how to use it. "Fear the man with one bag". Know your equipment. Learn it, get proficient, this only comes with time and experience.

They are working on a classification system this year. I forget the details, but something similar to what you refer to. I like the current classifications they have, such as Junior, Senior, Lady, Mil/LEO, etc. These may or may not get recognized at local matches, and they typically require a minimum number of shooters entered into a national level match. That is what I like about the "new Production Division", which in my opinion is "Manufacturer's division" unlike the original intent of being an entry level division. This year there are numerous entries in "Production/Manufacturer's Division", which last year we were lucky to see a handful show up. Plus, it makes the division more competitive with the manufacturers onboard. Now they need a "Manufacturer's Trophy" for the end of year points total, maybe count the points of the top 5 shooters at each match toward the "5K Cup". I also have been lobbying to get rid of the bullet weight and velocity restrictions of Tactical and make it more competitive with Open, not equal to but more competitive than 77 grain bullets or 178s at 2800fps. Berger 185s or 200.20x bullets will make it closer to open, and a "recoil class", IF they would put in a weight restriction of 18 pounds or so for gun and scope. It could be renamed "Limited" or remain "Tactical" as everyone is getting used to names not being defining.

 

[DUTCH84]

I like the "limited" class idea. At the same time a few of the local shoots have been incorporating more traditional stages, IE kneeling, sitting and standing, which a 20lb gun (or even 16lb gun) is difficult and evens the playing field.

I was just throwing an idea of when I was a new shooter, most guys helped (thank you greatly!) with look through my spotter or try my bag or that gizmo is not going to help you. That first year (at least for me) was the biggest learning experience and the most frustrating.

I was brainstorming a different idea away from cost. I started by researching and buying "the best" equipment only to find experience and practice are the best "equipment"...just my 2cents.

 

[SWFShooter]

I like the "limited" class idea. At the same time a few of the local shoots have been incorporating more traditional stages, IE kneeling, sitting and standing, which a 20lb gun (or even 16lb gun) is difficult and evens the playing field.

I was just throwing an idea of when I was a new shooter, most guys helped (thank you greatly!) with look through my spotter or try my bag or that gizmo is not going to help you. That first year (at least for me) was the biggest learning experience and the most frustrating.

I was brainstorming a different idea away from cost. I started by researching and buying "the best" equipment only to find experience and practice are the best "equipment"...just my 2cents.

In local matches, we like to get new shooters on a squad with an experienced, patient shooter who will serve as "squad mom". Very common to have multiple people sharing a spotting scope and tripod. You might even feel compelled to help lug it around. A few of the experienced shooters will volunteer on range practice days to help new shooters with the basics. I feel the local matches should have courses of fire that do not benefit extra high end equipment, so that they give a newcomer "hope" that he can compete without dropping $1000 on range equipment and 4K to 8K for a rifle and scope. Local matches can have "non recognized classifications", they just don't count toward points. One local match was giving out "Top Gas Gun" trophies before the division existed nationally. They did it to encourage new shooters to try the PRS game with their current equipment. Those shooters were officially classed in their correct division, based on equipment, but entered into the second classification basically just for fun. On the other hand, I would NOT be in favor of a "Walmart Division" of a $700 rifle and $400 scope for a national level match. Typical cost of entering a single national match will be in that cost range, depending on distance traveled, accommodations selected, entry fee and ammo. This game is not cheap, people actually can't buy a better finish, but failing to use decent equipment might buy them a lower place finish. But if a local match wanted to have a "Top Budget Gun" or maybe even a "Hunting Rifle division" or whatever, to encourage new shooters, nothing says they can't do just that. Hell, if I ran a local match, I might give out a trophy/prize/gag gift for "Top Lever Gun" just to see if anyone would give it a try. The way reloading components are right now, maybe a muzzleloader division would gain traction. The national level matches are not normally hurting for entries, but some of the local matches struggle to attract enough shooters.

 

[DairyDictator]

I think so,

try it, and dont try to match them, make the best in class handload, pick the best bullet, then get a box off the shelf and look

factory ammo is good, but its not tuned to the shooter like a handload, that group size you adjusted fixed some of you the factory ammo would show.

Would you allow tuners in limited? If so, that factory ammo can get close. ES and SD's will be better for handloads however.

I like the idea of limited and open, but I don't think the factory ammo situation will limit caliber selection all that much given time. I think if a lot of guys ran limited boutique companies like Clay's or Copper Creek would start making whatever cartridges people want to shoot since it might not be profitable enough for a large company like Hornady to tool up for a somewhat niche cartridge like 6BR, BRA, GT, etc leaving enough of a market for them to step in.

It takes the tuning ability away from the shooter, but I don't think it would limit the caliber selection all that much given enough time.

Granted, I may be overestimating the desire to shoot limited for prizes and trophies. It could be that the guys who know enough and want to run something niche like a BRA will just run open and not worry about it.

 

[308pirate]

Cash prizes/prize table = drama generator

No way around that........

Get rid of them and you'll lose probably 75% of your problems with people who feel they "can't compete"

The other problem seems to be a society that has trouble grasping the fact that you won't excel at something immediately just because you bought the tools of the trade.

Over the last 10 years or so I've managed to convince 4 - 5 people to try USPSA or IDPA. Only one has ever stuck with it. The rest couldn't grasp the delta between what they thought they could do with a pistol and what they were actually capable of doing and never went back.

 

[n00g7]

I think this is the sort of set up that needs to be capable of your average stage, while still remaining a challenge so there is that desire to come back and be better. Where do draw the lines though is something I don't have a great opinion on because I don't know the discipline well enough. As I have learned from this thread there are some extremely capable "Production" rifles that are available to shooters now.

These MPA, GAP, etc. offerings for $2000-$2500 did not previously exist and are still much cheaper than just jumping into a $4000+ rifle. Yet, tons of people shoot $1000 Bergaras, Tikka, etc. in club matches and move them out of production class with various upgrades anyways.

Production seems more for the purpose of getting mainstream sponsor support and to advertise their gear. The $2000 and definitely the $2500 options break that, kinda, as the MPA and GAP “production” rifles are as capable as any open one. Then again, I see a lot of new shooters buy that stuff because it is production capable and they want to spend more than $1200 but less than $3000 on a rifle, so I dunno.

 

[kindabitey]

At the end of the day, it's not going to be "fixed" until there is a change of attitude at the very top of the sanctioning bodies.

 

[Jcrios014]

Just my 2cents,

Part of the problem involved is ego. Regardess of what limitations are put in place, $ cap, equipment cap, skill cap, etc. Ego will always be an issue especially within this sport for some reason. We all know that one (sometimes many) guy(s) that thinks they can out spend any percieved limitations and thus will allways look to push those boundries. Oh there's a $2500 cap on a rifle well I'll just buy the $2499.99 one and now watch me break into the top 5 of the "Production" class.

Making it so you can only use "this" or you're only allowed to have "that" would probably do more to turn people away from taking part in matches. Especially if they were implemented by those "bigger" organizations. Many have said and I agree, that the the growth of the sport is in the local matches/circuits and by middle of the pack shoothers. As long as these are organizaitons contiune to put on local matches and there are companies willing to support these local matches the issues shouldn't be felt by the majority. The reason why it seems like an "issue" is because of people perceptions of their limitations is tied to the rig/gear the use.

A wise instructor once said "you can have a $5000 rig and be a $50 shooter; or a $1000 rig and a $1000 shooter."

 

[Cjwise5]

I believe @Cjwise5 was already doing some of that and I believe at one point he was videoing matches for the PRS, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes sir, I was contracted by PRS to make videos and do social media content for the 2019 season.

Also, I have held off making very many training videos specifically, because guys like Frank and Caylen/Phil exist. They are excellent teachers and have the experience (military) to back it up. I'm a good teacher, but don't have the real world experience. Maybe that doesn't matter for the new and intermediate shooters that enjoy my channel? (guess I'll get back to work)

 

[DairyDictator]

Yes sir, I was contracted by PRS to make videos and do social media content for the 2019 season.

Also, I have held off making very many training videos specifically, because guys like Frank and Caylen/Phil exist. They are excellent teachers and have the experience to back it up. I'm a good teacher, but don't have the real world experience. Maybe that doesn't matter for the new and intermediate shooters that enjoy my channel? (guess I'll get back to work)

Just based on my limited experience (I took Frank and Marc's IA class you were at in 2020) I think the experience comes in during troubleshooting. All the fundamentals apply across the board, but Frank and Marc's experience really allowed them to watch a guy who's having trouble and tell him exactly what he's doing wrong, and how to fix it. Correct wind calls also take a huge variable out of the equation, so the shooter can focus on shooting. Whether or not they listen is a different discussion.

The information you put out is still very useful to new guys. A lot don't know what the fundamentals are or have a clue what it should look like when applied correctly. They're not just messing it up because they have bad habits. The stuff you put out definitely points people in the right direction, then guys like Frank really teach you how to hone your skills and fix yourself.

The tips and tricks are great for the intermediate guys who have decent fundamentals. I thought your wind reading video was probably one of the more helpful videos available on the topic for example.

 

[Deputy Dan]

New guy here - first post ---

But - you guys have almost talked me out of trying a local club PRS match. I thought I might try PRS for the same reason I got into USPSA: standing (sitting) at the range shooting at static targets gets boring pretty quickly.

USPSA changed that for me with my handgun - I had a LOT of fun and improved significantly over time. The scores were important only because they showed I was getting better. I started out shooting what I had, and as I got better I got some better gear.

I also competed in a couple of three-gun matches. Turns out two of my three guns were NOT the right weapons for the courses - but I didn't care. I had FUN!

For me it’s not a matter of wanting to compete in PRS, and then going out to get the equipment. I have some equipment and want to use it in a way that’s fun and helps me get better. I’m not going to invest in a gun that would be used purely for competition until I know I'm likely to keep at the game.

Not sure I’m your average Joe but for me I'm after

• A challenge where performance and competition at the game is directly related to your skill.
• An activity that doesn't require an enormous amount of physical talent, combined, in this case, with a lot of mental challenges.
• An element of inconquerability. I mean come on - the WIND can beat you in distance shooting!

Maybe I should give F-class a try . . .

 

[Rob01]

Dan don't let the jibber jabber of people bored on the internet during the winter stop you from trying out the sport. It's a very fun sport. Treat it like you did USPSA. Go have some fun.

 

[Newbie2020]

^^^listen to @Rob01 man this sport is a lot of fun. Having sat at a concrete bench punching paper for twenty years pales compared to The challenge of learning to build a stable position chasing steel out to 1,000 yds on the clock.

 

[Mojo0254]

O think one thing being forgotten here that the production class has done is drive rifle makers like GA precision to look at making a more affordable rifle option. Yes $2500 is still a lot for a lot of people but until this happened you couldn’t even touch a GA precision rifle with a shot out barrel for that. Now you can get a GA precision rifle that shoots one hole groups at that price.

Maybe production class should be an entry level class that has around a $13-1400 dollar limit around the RPR price and stuff like the PPR at $2500 be an amateur level class with no PROs allowed so you get people that are more serious but not as much money and keeping the $2500 price point. Now that GA has built a rifle at that price other companies will start doing it as well.

 

[Newbie2020]

Yes. I agree. The price point is a terrible metric but in truth $1300-1400 is way more “production” than $2500.

Tikka
Ruger
Savage
The artist formerly known as Remington
Bergara

Etc all have quality LR rifle offerings in this price range.

They called it “production” but I don’t think that was ever the real intent.

There have been a lot of good alternative ideas presented in this thread that are probably better than retail MSRP:

experience level
Limited equipment specs vs unlimited specs
Different Target size and time

 

[n00g7]

For me it’s not a matter of wanting to compete in PRS, and then going out to get the equipment. I have some equipment and want to use it in a way that’s fun and helps me get better. I’m not going to invest in a gun that would be used purely for competition until I know I'm likely to keep at the game.

Pay no attention to the complaints regarding classes here. Show up to a club match and run what you brung.

 

[Lowlight]

The more you think about the man off the street question, the more you realize it‘s not an easy fix, nor is it strictly a gear one

The only way a man off the street will work, is if you create specific events for that, the GAP Grind Style, but they even broke that event. You need to leverage all the locations not just one

The man off the street is really unrealistic in any other context without changing the entire structure. You’d need different targets, big and small its be a lot more involved

Man off the street events are the only way to solve that

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Being a touch to old to run and gun, much less build stable positions (My deer hunting suffered this year because of my loss of stability) I doubt I will ever shoot another match. Still, shooting long range targets is a blat. Even if a fellow or lady can’t or will never be able to shoot a reasonable match score, going to the range and setting up your own scenarios is a real kick. Bring a timer or just use your phone. Try sequences requiring different targets at different ranges. Set a time limit, if that becomes too easy, cut the time in half. Have fun. But remember

Never, let lack of ability cause lack of action. When you quit, you die.

A very wise medical professional once related to me.... There are those who keep pushing and those who sit on the couch and wait to die. Don’t be the latter.

 

[Newbie2020]

I like Scott’s approach in the Hunter class: factory only. Period. No new barrel, no modified stock, etc. I hate it, but I like it. He refuses to open the Pandora’s box of ya buts. It’s not popular, but it works for everyone. If you already rebarreled, great! That means you have an awesome rifle you’ve shot the crap out of. You’re welcome in open class.

 

[Mike p]

I've only participated in a couple of very early PRS matches, but have participated in a couple of Mammoths, 3-gun, and 2 different pistol disciplines and this ALWAYS seems to come up. How to make it more fair for the "new shooter", how to attract the "new shooter', etc, etc., etc.. Competition drives equipment innovation, and skill development at a minimum. These are good things, why shouldn't the better cartridges, better rifles, better gear and better shooters win? I'm going to guess that the ones at the top, near the top working your way down were at some point "new shooters". who stayed the course. I see nothing wrong with divisions, or systems of classifications if you want, but there will always be a way to game those too for those so inclined.
experience and practice are the best "equipment"
"the average shooter never had a chance"

 

[Lowlight]

the dirty little secret, and why the public display of the PRS email is to show, it;s being suppressed, not grown

You don;t grow the sport by having 400 new shooters at the GAP Grind, you grow the sport by replicating the success of the GAP Grind to other areas.

The grow the sport catch phrase is a lie, it’s not about growing the sport, it’s growing the individual

Sure you can say, we had 200 last year, 300 this year we grew the sport in the one location. But that is just one location you only grew that single locations bank account. The true advocate of grow the sport would have spread the wealth

Think about a Pro Am in multiple locations, to attract a variety of shooters. Why always have them show up in one place, open it up

If I have 10 Grinds around the country and 200 people at each, I think I grew the sport better... on top of that its a better experience than trying to run 400, what do you experience beside a Disney style ride if you are moved through like an assembly line. Great for the bank, bad to learn.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

New guy here - first post ---

But - you guys have almost talked me out of trying a local club PRS match. I thought I might try PRS for the same reason I got into USPSA: standing (sitting) at the range shooting at static targets gets boring pretty quickly.

USPSA changed that for me with my handgun - I had a LOT of fun and improved significantly over time. The scores were important only because they showed I was getting better. I started out shooting what I had, and as I got better I got some better gear.

I also competed in a couple of three-gun matches. Turns out two of my three guns were NOT the right weapons for the courses - but I didn't care. I had FUN!

For me it’s not a matter of wanting to compete in PRS, and then going out to get the equipment. I have some equipment and want to use it in a way that’s fun and helps me get better. I’m not going to invest in a gun that would be used purely for competition until I know I'm likely to keep at the game.

Not sure I’m your average Joe but for me I'm after

• A challenge where performance and competition at the game is directly related to your skill.
• An activity that doesn't require an enormous amount of physical talent, combined, in this case, with a lot of mental challenges.
• An element of inconquerability. I mean come on - the WIND can beat you in distance shooting!

Maybe I should give F-class a try . . .

Don't listen to people bitching on the internet. Local PRS really is great fun. I have met great people and become a better shooter over the years. Try it for yourself before judging it based off what you read here. You are really far away from me, but I'm sure there are others on here who would love to meet up with you, show you the ropes, share gear if necessary. Different venues or match directors will have their own unique style, some might have a little more physicality, some might focus more on the long range aspect. I say try a couple different ones in your area. Based off what you've written here, I highly doubt you'll regret it.

 

[MDof2]

New guy here - first post ---

But - you guys have almost talked me out of trying a local club PRS match. I thought I might try PRS for the same reason I got into USPSA: standing (sitting) at the range shooting at static targets gets boring pretty quickly.

USPSA changed that for me with my handgun - I had a LOT of fun and improved significantly over time. The scores were important only because they showed I was getting better. I started out shooting what I had, and as I got better I got some better gear.

I also competed in a couple of three-gun matches. Turns out two of my three guns were NOT the right weapons for the courses - but I didn't care. I had FUN!

For me it’s not a matter of wanting to compete in PRS, and then going out to get the equipment. I have some equipment and want to use it in a way that’s fun and helps me get better. I’m not going to invest in a gun that would be used purely for competition until I know I'm likely to keep at the game.

Not sure I’m your average Joe but for me I'm after

• A challenge where performance and competition at the game is directly related to your skill.
• An activity that doesn't require an enormous amount of physical talent, combined, in this case, with a lot of mental challenges.
• An element of inconquerability. I mean come on - the WIND can beat you in distance shooting!

Maybe I should give F-class a try . . .

Fvck that noise.
Forget about rifle classes / categories / jerseys and points and just go shoot. You'll have a great time, meet a bunch of decent folk, learn a new discipline of shooting, and enjoy a cold beer at the end of the day. Beats sitting at home getting yelled at by the wifey!

Seriously. Pick a patch, introduce yourself as a new shooter, get squadded with someone (most everyone) who will take help with equipment, tips, pointers, etc. and shoot.

 

[MDof2]

Food for thought / discussion: (at the top level, albeit a fair bit of minutia to digest/debate)

Regarding Classes/Divisions and breaking them into manageable layers for that attract new shooters for sport, and 'pro' (jersey) shooters to be competitive at the upper levels of the shooting discipline, type of equipment, etc.

From an equipment swag:
Production: Price cap: ~$3,000 Off the shelf, grab an optic, go shoot. This gives a guy roughly 1500 for a rifle, and optic respectively. Not a horrible bite to take jumping in or trying to get started. Pretty sure you can get an OK starter gun for something in this range, and it still be fun.
Custom: Price Cap: 6k? Maybe 7500? This would be the MPA, MDT Foundation chassis/stock with a custom barreled action. SAP, Defiance, AI, Curtis, Gunwerks, BAT, etc.
Open: No Cap. Do what you like.
Gas: Same $ cap as Production.

As far as classes / categorization of shooters, and diving them up, I'm a fan of simplicity here.
You are either Jerseyed (shared funding) or not (100% self funded).
Sub categories of course: Amateur (less than 5 matches?), LOE/MIL, Ladies, Senior, Everyone Else.

I *think* the above would hit most everyone, and give some levels of competition to each at individual levels and within their respective category or level of participation.

Again, just thinking out loud throwing out some food for thought.

 

[lte82]

the dirty little secret, and why the public display of the PRS email is to show, it;s being suppressed, not grown

You don;t grow the sport by having 400 new shooters at the GAP Grind, you grow the sport by replicating the success of the GAP Grind to other areas.

The grow the sport catch phrase is a lie, it’s not about growing the sport, it’s growing the individual

Sure you can say, we had 200 last year, 300 this year we grew the sport in the one location. But that is just one location you only grew that single locations bank account. The true advocate of grow the sport would have spread the wealth

Think about a Pro Am in multiple locations, to attract a variety of shooters. Why always have them show up in one place, open it up

If I have 10 Grinds around the country and 200 people at each, I think I grew the sport better... on top of that its a better experience than trying to run 400, what do you experience beside a Disney style ride if you are moved through like an assembly line. Great for the bank, bad to learn.

My local steel range charges $1000/yr and has 400 members, plus events. They gross $500k/yr.

My home “PRS” style range which is only 90 mins away, and charges $650/yr, but with events probably grosses even more than the other. Their club matches and 2-day matches sell out.

You’re exactly right. A smart person who wants to grow would simply take that model, find a part of the country where there isn’t a range like that, and copy/paste until there is nowhere left to build.

 

[jinxx4ever]

i thought they fixed the PRS when they did away with KYL targets

 

[308pirate]

the ones at the top, near the top working your way down were at some point "new shooters". who stayed the course.

100% right

And what's also true but left unsaid in your excellent post is that all those who stayed the course didn't need a "new shooter class" or "cost limited class" or a "class where the average man can win something". They just started with what they had and upgraded what really mattered.

You can't succeed in the shooting sports without intrinsic motivation. People who need to win some trinket/certificate/$ to keep at it never last.

 

[308pirate]

From an equipment swag:
Production: Price cap: ~$3,000 Off the shelf, grab an optic, go shoot. This gives a guy roughly 1500 for a rifle, and optic respectively. Not a horrible bite to take jumping in or trying to get started. Pretty sure you can get an OK starter gun for something in this range, and it still be fun.
Custom: Price Cap: 6k? Maybe 7500? This would be the MPA, MDT Foundation chassis/stock with a custom barreled action. SAP, Defiance, AI, Curtis, Gunwerks, BAT, etc.
Open: No Cap. Do what you like.
Gas: Same $ cap as Production.

As far as classes / categorization of shooters, and diving them up, I'm a fan of simplicity here.
You are either Jerseyed (shared funding) or not (100% self funded).
Sub categories of course: Amateur (less than 5 matches?), LOE/MIL, Ladies, Senior, Everyone Else.

Everyone is fixated on equipment cost as a way to segregate or create equipment divisions. There isn't a single shooting sport that I know of, including other mid/long range rifle sports, where cost is used as a determining factor in this segregation.

Every sport I've ever participated in and that has equipment divisions has always focused on intrinsic performance and/or design characteristics to segregate firearms into layers/tiers/divisions, and within each division focused on defining any allowable and/or prohibited modifications. Never on what anything costs. That model has been successful in NRA highpower, NRA highpower silhouette, NRA smallbore, NRA smallbore silhouette, NRA bullseye pistol and action pistol, IDPA, USPSA, and possibly some others I'm not aware of.

I'm not talking about imitating or copying another sport's ruleset. I'm talking about understanding conceptually why no one uses what the cost of gear/guns as a way to create equipment separation. Maybe there is something useful about the $ approach, but when no one does it, shouldn't the question "why" at least be considered?

I recognize just using arbitrary price caps is easy as fuck to do and that it's much harder to sit down, think, and hammer through some key firearm and equipment characteristics that separate good/better/best or that make shooting easier. But the effort put into defining equipment divisions based on those characteristics will produce a far more robust system.

A similar line of thought needs to be followed when thinking about separating shooters into performance/skill layers.

Every sport I've ever participated in uses some sort of skill indicator to classify shooters into different groups for the purpose of awards. Shooter classification based on demonstrated skill or performance also provides shooters a benchmark that they have at least some influence over by being tied to what they do in a match.

There are quite a few systems in use by other sports, including some that parallel the lack of course of fire standardization that PRS/NRL has. I get it. Lack of knowledge or familiarity with how other sports shooter classification systems work leads some to dismiss them with a "but that won't work here". But others know that's not the case and a system that is reasonably accurate, reasonably easy to be supported with existing scoring software, and accommodating of the freestyle nature of PRS/NRL courses of fire can be devised using elements of other existing shooter classification systems. The wheel doesn't need to be completely re-invented.

Shooter jerseys..…...hmmmm. They impress only those who don't realize that the majority of people wearing them paid for them and paid for the logos on them. At least that is true in USPSA and IDPA. At most some "jersey" shooters are getting discounted bullets or some other token in return for wearing one or two of the many logos on their shirt. I have zero reason to think PRS shooters wearing jerseys are any different. Probably the absolute worst metric to use to differentiate shooters from each other.

When talking about layers/segregation, need to keep equipment sophistication and shooter skill level separate. You cannot mix the two.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

A couple of thoughts regarding Jersey/sponsorships and classifications/prize tables.

I long thought one of the serious issues that IHMSA felt was total amateur. No professionals, no sponsorships. My worry was that since the people making the firearms and other products, could not depend on those using those firearms were capable or professional in their abilities or actions. So the sponsors would not advertise or sponsor said organizations or the events put on by those organizations. Exceptions to be sure, Freedom Arms was and continues to support IHMSA in a way that the only firearms that one can go to the store and purchase and be competitive in are the Freedom Arms Revolvers in revolver classes. However, expect to pay a price that is equal to the cost of an MPA or GAP Production rifle. Not much else is competitive and jsut about every other competitive firearm has to be built by a gunsmith or is semi-custom by boutique firearm builders.

Point, sponsorship would seem to have a benefit in that the sponsored shooters have a responsibility to represent their employers in a respectful and capable manner.

Prize tables. In reality, prize tables would seem to really segregate the average shooter from the sport. However, It is wrong to penalize the super talented who have worked to develope that talent by giving out participation trophies to all. Perhaps the best I have seen is After Event Raffles. Everyone who participates and completes the course of fire gets their name thrown in a pot and drawings are held.

Point, give the pros money. That’s what they want. Give the items to the shooters in a fair raffle or other method of random distribution.

its a thought but of course in raffles, I always win a stupid potted plant.

and if forgot, this is a about shooting classes. Forget classes, You have pros and you have a Non-pros. And keep the production class so the pros can have two classes. (It gets us folks some pretty nice rifles to shoot)

 

[308pirate]

A couple of thoughts regarding Jersey/sponsorships and classifications/prize tables.

I long thought one of the serious issues that IHMSA felt was total amateur. No professionals, no sponsorships. My worry was that since the people making the firearms and other products, could not depend on those using those firearms were capable or professional in their abilities or actions. So the sponsors would not advertise or sponsor said organizations or the events put on by those organizations. Exceptions to be sure, Freedom Arms was and continues to support IHMSA in a way that the only firearms that one can go to the store and purchase and be competitive in are the Freedom Arms Revolvers in revolver classes. However, expect to pay a price that is equal to the cost of an MPA or GAP Production rifle. Not much else is competitive and jsut about every other competitive firearm has to be built by a gunsmith or is semi-custom by boutique firearm builders.

Point, sponsorship would seem to have a benefit in that the sponsored shooters have a responsibility to represent their employers in a respectful and capable manner.

Prize tables. In reality, prize tables would seem to really segregate the average shooter from the sport. However, It is wrong to penalize the super talented who have worked to develope that talent by giving out participation trophies to all. Perhaps the best I have seen is After Event Raffles. Everyone who participates and completes the course of fire gets their name thrown in a pot and drawings are held.

Point, give the pros money. That’s what they want. Give the items to the shooters in a fair raffle or other method of random distribution.

its a thought but of course in raffles, I always win a stupid potted plant.

and if forgot, this is a about shooting classes. Forget classes, You have pros and you have a Non-pros. And keep the production class so the pros can have two classes. (It gets us folks some pretty nice rifles to shoot)

How many people are there in the PRS world that are professional shooters? By that I mean people who make their livelihood from competing? Not by making rifles, or making steel targets, or giving instruction. By being a professional competitive shooter.

If PRS is like any the rest of the shooting sports, that number is zero.

The way professionalize a shooting sport isn't to have "professional" shooters. It's to have a professional organization providing a stable ruleset, seamless administration of scores, classifications, memberships, etc, and to provide a structure for organizing and running higher tier events that culminate in a national championship. Bonus points if the national organization is affiliated with a world wide governing body so that a national team can be fielded. None of that, BTW, detracts from grassroots competition. It actually enhances it if done correctly.

 

[lte82]

Lots of people bumping their gums, but very few buying property, building ranges, and hosting clinics and matches how they think it should be done. Just saying...

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

How many people are there in the PRS world that are professional shooters? By that I mean people who make their livelihood from competing? Not by making rifles, or making steel targets, or giving instruction. By being a professional competitive shooter.

If PRS is like any the rest of the shooting sports, that number is zero.

The way professionalize a shooting sport isn't to have "professional" shooters. It's to have a professional organization providing a stable ruleset, seamless administration of scores, classifications, memberships, etc, and to provide a structure for organizing and running higher tier events that culminate in a national championship. Bonus points if the national organization is affiliated with a world wide governing body so that a national team can be fielded. None of that, BTW, detracts from grassroots competition. It actually enhances it if done correctly.

Good point. Perhaps my terminology was not accurate. Professionals typically earn their all or part of their living inside or by the sport they are participating. I was thinking more in line with those who either are true professionals (such as those building firearms) or those who receive part or all of their income from sponsors of the sport.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that it makes more sense to give a sponsored competitor cash instead of a prize that he/she may not need or want..

If you or anyone else finds this as nonsense, please ignore. (The musings of a 72 year old who has seen too much and lost much more)

 

[Swoodhouse19]

I am a match director in Cali. We hold monthly matches and a few special events also. Our matches have rifles in all spectrums. I see many Bergara's, RPR, Savages, Remington PCR, Remington 700's, etc.... and of course the customs and "Custom" production rifles. With shooters of all levels who come out and are challenging themselves. I have watched a close friend of mine take my Rem700 SPS .223 and shoot factory 69's and beat half the field.....There are several options for all budgets, skill set and goals. I think the addition of the different levels in the scoring (PRO, Semi-Pro, Marksmen, etc) which is something that has been around a long time in other shooting sports, is going to be a great change for those competing. You now are shooting against someone with similar skill, and as you improve you can move up.

 

[308pirate]

I suppose what I was trying to say is that it makes more sense to give a sponsored competitor cash instead of a prize that he/she may not need or want..

I think it makes more sense to give cash and/or prizes to no one. A lot of problems are eliminated or significantly reduced.

BTW, how can you know who is a sponsored shooter? Is a 10% discount on bullets enough for someone to be "sponsored"? Anyone can buy a jersey full of "sponsor" logos: https://techwearusa.com/productdesigner/index/index/id/2479/stype/delta_crew_short_sleeve/ They don't mean anything