Flinching

[Awag1000]

I recently picked up a Savage 110 chambered for 300 Winchester Magnum. I took it to the range at 100 yards to get a general zero and my group sizes are like 6" in diameter (this is after 100 rounds through the barrel). I sometimes catch myself flinching before I take the shot. I automatically assume I'm the problem with the system. What is a good way to get comfortable with the recoil and concussion of these magnum rifles? I sadly cant own a suppressor because I live in New Jersey.

Rifle Specs:
Savage 110 Tactical 300WM (Accu-stock Accu-Trigger)
SWFA SS 10x42 (MOA/MOA)
Vortex Low Height 30mm Rings
20MOA base (came with the rifle)

Ammo Used:
120 rds Remington Core-Lokt 150g SP (the only stuff I can find in my area at the time)

 

[pmclaine]

Get a trainer in .22 of the same rifle. Use it to "warm" up.

Limit the amount of rounds you shoot at a setting.

Im not shooting .300 WM but in 30-06 or .308 I find twenty rounds is a good session to work on something and get my best concentration/value of training. Classes are different I want to shoot lots and expect to be exhausted at the end of the day.

 

[Newbie2020]

A muzzle brake will help.

Shorter shooting sessions w fewer rounds per session.

Dial down the trigger pull weight to a light but safe number you feel good about; I like 2 lbs for a hunting rifle, but lighter for a bench rifle that you won’t be humping through the woods with a round in the chamber.

Ryan Cleckner has a good video on shooting technique. But the main takeaway for me was you ALWAYS need to let yourself be “surprised” by the trigger break. If you find yourself anticipating the break, don’t shoot. Interrupt your process and start over.

 

[DukeGSP]

I would also try some 165's or 190's.... 6 inches is a lot IMO at 100. get it online if needed.

 

[brianf]

flinching is a byproduct of:

natural point of aim/position not being correct

as suggested, to many rounds in one session

plugs and muffs, glasses some guys just dont like the sound and recoil pulse in their face

trigger weight doesnt have much to do with flinching but it will screw your "groups" if its inconsistent or real gritty/crappy

also as suggested get some FGMM 190 gr...it that wont shoot under 1 1/2" at 100 yards in any rifle there is a serious problem

we can get into recoil control, grip, trigger finger placement etc...but that is what this whole website is about...lol this would be a loooooong thread

look for Lowlight's videos they are really good especially if your getting started

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Don't get a brake.

 

[Jevaughn0823]

When I had a .300wm I had to really focus on fundamentals. But like others said you can only do this with fewer shots in your shooting session. When you try to go for more rounds most of the time your focus is not their and you start implementing bad habits and get more and more frustrated. That's when you need to put the gun aside and come back another day. Also one thing to mention, you might want to try adding a heavier stock or barrel profile to add some weight inless it is a mountain gun. This can offset a little of the recoil.

 

[Mike Casselton]

It kicks you exactly the same amount whether you yank on the trigger or use good fundamentals.

Might as well make the shot count.

In fact, the more you tense up, the more it hurts.


I know, easier said than done.


What the guys said above.
Start with something smaller to work on fundamentals.
Learn to shoot it properly and it'll help a lot.

Don't resort to lead sleds and other stuff like that.

If the 300 is too much, get something smaller for every day shooting.

Also, if you must keep shooting the 300, shoot the lighter weight bullets for less overall recoil. They still kick, but not like 180 and heavier bullets do.

 

[Nafta]

I'm following @Culpeper to never miss his anti-brake posts!!! I think he's the only guy in the entire world who hates brakes more than me. It makes me feel less alone...

Maybe @Awag1000 you already have a brake on this rifle? About removing it? You can tame recoil by working on your position. Muzzle brake concussion is a shitty thing. Shoot prone if you can. On a bench, get off your butt, stand behing the bench with a forward position. Accept the wobble and press the trigger gradually.

Don't give up.

 

[Mike Casselton]

BTW,
I've never found the Core locks to be very accurate.
Maybe that's why they are on the shelf in your area.

 

[Steel head]

Suppress you inner vagina.

I’ve had good luck beating flinch problems with dry firing.

Glasses, muffs and plugs. Also help

 

[Fig]

I hate brakes too (maybe not as much as you guys), but that doesn't mean they don't work. It's not called a Little Bastard because it isn't a little bastard. I think that they're more of a loudner on low recoil cartridges, but they're very effective on bigger magnums with a lot of recoil and a cheap solution.

Stop being such snobs. The Poors can't afford cans and still buy reloading components and match fees.

 

[Nafta]

Suppress you inner vagina.

I’ve had good luck beating flinch problems with dry firing.

Glasses, muffs and plugs. Also help

That's the best advice so far. Dry firing is mandatory. Not just at home, at the range too. Dry fire 3-4 times between live shots.

 

[brianf]

maybe try some if these reduced loads to help tame recoil

just a idea

Remington Managed Recoil 300 Win Magnum Ammo 150 Gr Core-Lokt PSP - Ammo Deals

Remington Managed Recoil 300 Win Magnum Ammo 150 Gr Core-Lokt PSP at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 300 Win Mag ammo o

www.targetsportsusa.com

 

[Alabusa]

I developed a flinch after crawling the scope and getting scope eye. I used my 22lr to train myself not to flinch.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Jesus Christ it is a .30 caliber rifle. The WM is good for a 50 round session at the range. More if somebody is shooting at you. Shoot 190s for the fuck of it.

 

[candyx]

I recently picked up a Savage 110 chambered for 300 Winchester Magnum. I took it to the range at 100 yards to get a general zero and my group sizes are like 6" in diameter (this is after 100 rounds through the barrel). I sometimes catch myself flinching before I take the shot. I automatically assume I'm the problem with the system. What is a good way to get comfortable with the recoil and concussion of these magnum rifles? I sadly cant own a suppressor because I live in New Jersey.

Rifle Specs:
Savage 110 Tactical 300WM (Accu-stock Accu-Trigger)
SWFA SS 10x42 (MOA/MOA)
Vortex Low Height 30mm Rings
20MOA base (came with the rifle)

Ammo Used:
120 rds Remington Core-Lokt 150g SP (the only stuff I can find in my area at the time)

We don't call them suppressors in Jersey , there solvent traps that sometimes leak from the hole created by the accidental misfire that must be repair when I get the new part for it.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

A brake. Anyone within 50' will hate you but it tames the recoil nicely.

A limbsaver recoil pad.

Double up on ear protection.

A sturdy bipod and shooting bags. Get the rifle nested.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Lots of good, and some not so good, advice here. I use to have a bad flinch problem. I'm not 100% cured but am much better than I was.
1. Do a lot of dry fire practice. Go through the fundamentals of making a shot over and over. You can do this at home.
2. When you shoot at the range, dry fire several, or many, times and then load a round a fire the shot as if you were dry firing.
3. If you have a friend that could help you, do the same sort of thing as described in #2 but have the friend load a round. But in this case the round could be a live round or a dummy round.

Be aware that this could take a thousand rounds or more to get fixed. When I first worked on fixing my flinch problem I used pistol shooting to work through it. I was shooting mainly pistol then.

Some practice with a .22 rimfire helps too. But you need to purposefully go through the shot cycle to hard wire this activity so the anticipation leading up to a flinch can be reduced and eliminated.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Lots of good, and some not so good, advice here. I use to have a bad flinch problem. I'm not 100% cured but am much better than I was.
1. Do a lot of dry fire practice. Go through the fundamentals of making a shot over and over. You can do this at home.
2. When you shoot at the range, dry fire several, or many, times and then load a round a fire the shot as if you were dry firing.
3. If you have a friend that could help you, do the same sort of thing as described in #2 but have the friend load a round. But in this case the round could be a live round or a dummy round.

Be aware that this could take a thousand rounds or more to get fixed. When I first worked on fixing my flinch problem I used pistol shooting to work through it. I was shooting mainly pistol then.

Some practice with a .22 rimfire helps too. But you need to purposefully go through the shot cycle to hard wire this activity so the anticipation leading up to a flinch can be reduced and eliminated.

^^^ Good info here.
If you've ever played golf, you can compare the dry firing to the practice swing.

I've got a great practice swing, but when there's an actual ball there on the tee, my swing is different.
Same with dry firing and firing a live round.

That's why having a friend load the rifle with live and dummy rounds actually works.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The absolute best training to eliminate flinch is random dummy rounds that you have zero idea where they are.

Dryfiring alone is largely ineffective with flinch because you know there will be no recoil.

I’ve done it to myself and countless people with a flinch, be it rifle or pistol. You will dryfire all day, everyday, perfectly. Zero movement picture perfect.

I’d then load a random dummy round during live fire practice and bam, there’s the flinch.

You have two options:

Load your own mags, weeks or months ahead of time with random dummy rounds. So that you forget where the duds are.

Have your friends load your rounds. Be it the mags at home or at the range.

The key is to have zero knowledge of when that particular round is gonna go “click” and you can see your flinch.

Dryfire ain’t the best answer for fixing flinch, generally speaking.

 

[Sheldon N]

Dryfiring alone is largely ineffective with flinch because you know there will be no recoil.

I’ve done it to myself and countless people with a flinch, be it rifle or pistol. You will dryfire all day, everyday, perfectly. Zero movement picture perfect.

I’d then load a random dummy round during live fire practice and bam, there’s the flinch.

Yep.

I have a single dummy round I made, just seating a bullet in a primerless empty case.

Most practice days I'll run 5 shots per mag on whatever drill I'm working on. I grab 5 live rounds, the one dummy round, then move them around in my hands or put them in a pile so I cant tell which one is the dummy round. Load all 6 rounds without looking and then shoot the drill. You never know which one is going to go "click".

I do it mag after mag after mag, trying for both a perfect clean on hitting the targets and also for a clean brake on the dummy round.

That plus a ton of dry fire, plus plugs/muffs, plus a less blasty (or no) brake.

 

[Xander3Zero]

Maybe too soon for this but...

Instead of loading dummy rounds into your mags, you could just get an early generation Nucleus action and the light strikes will replicate dummy rounds in your mags!

Haha, just joking before the "haven't had any light strikes with #85 pound spring yet" comments start falling.

 

[acudaowner]

you can do it . just takes time and lots of practice 6'' group will turn into 1'' with enough practice then 5 shots in one hole at 100 yards then start all over and try 200 - what ever range you get to . good luck and have fun . I love taking a break from shooting and watching other people watching there shots how they shoot and even seeing successes and failures .

 

[ShtrRdy]

Something else to consider doing at the range. Take 4 dummy rounds and one live round. Put them all in a bag and move them around. Then put your hands and magazine in the bag and load the mag. When you put it in the gun you'll have 4 duds and 1 live round.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Something else to consider doing at the range. Take 4 dummy rounds and one live round. Put them all in a bag and move them around. Then put your hands and magazine in the bag and load the mag. When you put it in the gun you'll have 4 duds and 1 live round.

Issue I had with something similar when I was working on my own flinch with pistol.

I would turn my back and my buddy would turn his back. He either loaded a single round in the gun or no round without me knowing.

Worked at first. After a while though, I could feel the weight difference in a single round and no round.

So we changed it to a full mag of live rounds. Either round in chamber or none in chamber. I couldn’t distinguish that weight difference in 12 or 13 rounds total.

After a while of the bag trick, you’ll be able to feel the weight difference in dummy vs live (unless you can mimic the weight).

The subconscious knowing absolutely whether there is recoil or not cannot be understated.

 

[Awag1000]

all Excellent information here. thank you all. I broke out my savage MKII today (slightly different optic) and ran a few rounds through it today. shot 5 rounds from the 110 and saw a good improvement from the group before it.

^^^this was the group that promted me to ask this question.

^^^This was the group I printed today. Definitely good Improvement.

 

[CanSniper]

This is good advice.

 

[Healy]

I’ll take a 338 lapua with a great trigger over a 6.5 with a 6# trigger and tons of creep any day

 

[phlegethon]

Check your rail screws. They are often loose in Savage rifles. Might need to be tightened and get some loctite.

 

[Precision Underground]

Positions aside, not flinching/anticipating starts with dry firing. You need to train your brain to get out of the rifle and have zero anticipation/reaction to the trigger. If your mind is on the rifle and the trigger it’s really hard to do. Get your mind on watching the round hit the target. THAT is your focus and the trigger pull and recoil are just part of the road to get there.

When your focus is pulling the trigger you are inviting your brain to ramp up to that and you have no further instruction for your subconscious. With no instructions your subconscious will revert to survival mode and flinch/cringe at the noise and recoil. Make your goal to watch it all happen. Dry fire and then dry fire some more. Once you go to the range you need to dry fire 10 times and then load 1 round and repeat. This takes discipline. Most people will do it once and then start blasting away and flinching again. The thing about flinching is you really won’t know you are doing it until you are expecting a boom and get a click. Random dummy rounds are good training once you think you are getting it

 

[Awag1000]

Check your rail screws. They are often loose in Savage rifles. Might need to be tightened and get some loctite.

i've done this already I've had the rail come completely off on my Savage 10 FCPSR. I clean all of the threaded surfaces with rubbing alcohol then use blue loctite.

 

[Matches Malone]

My dad told me not to be a bitch, I guess it worked. I’m not recoil sensitive.

I agree that dry fire isn’t a good solution. We use dry fire to train better trigger discipline. Past that it doesn’t help with the flinch because the flinch is a psychological obstacle.

As to not repeat what was pointed out, having someone else but you put a snapcap in for you randomly is the best method. It trains the brain to catch what you are doing, and forces you to be honest with yourself. In time you will get control of what you are doing, and to help speed up the process, and I’m not joking, if there’s a consequence to the flinch, you tend to be more worried about the consequence then the rifle, this also helps.

This is all assuming that some form of recoil management is all sorted and just the flinch exist.

 

[Cuzz]

I got this to shoot a light weight 444 marlin and it works. I’m an old man, sorta wimpy and have a motorcycle wrecked shoulder.

 

[Nafta]

I agree that dry fire isn’t a good solution.

With all due respect, that's a misleading statement. Dry firing is a practice of the correct way to execute the firing task. The more you do it, the more you integrate the correct way. I'm not saying dummy rounds are not good. They will show instantly if there's any progress. That dosen't make dry firing useless!!!

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Shoot more.

 

[Dthomas3523]

With all due respect, that's a misleading statement. Dry firing is a practice of the correct way to execute the firing task. The more you do it, the more you integrate the correct way. I'm not saying dummy rounds are not good. They will show instantly if there's any progress. That dosen't make dry firing useless!!!

Its the correct statement for this issue.

He didn’t say dryfire is useless.

It is however, absolutely not the solution for flinching.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If this link works, this is a perfect example.

 

[Nafta]

Good video, really. It's not like we disagree. The guy could flinch every single dummy with no improvement at all if didn't have a reference point. He concentrate to replicate the dry firing sequence, the correct sequence, when he knows it COULD go bang. Eventually he will be able to replicate the good sequence when he knows it WILL go bang. That's a process, you need a reference point. By the way, I hope it's his first time holding a pistol. It's not like it will explode or something ?.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Good video, really. It's not like we disagree. The guy could flinch every single dummy with no improvement at all if didn't have a reference point. He concentrate to replicate the dry firing sequence, the correct sequence, when he knows it COULD go bang. Eventually he will be able to replicate the good sequence when he knows it WILL go bang. That's a process, you need a reference point. By the way, I hope it's his first time holding a pistol. It's not like it will explode or something ?.

Dry fire is a tool that should be used at all times. It is not a specific solution to this issue.

Most every time any issue arises with fundamentals, “dryfire” is given as the solution with no context.

Beginner and intermediate shooters everywhere lose their minds because they perform perfect dryfire day in and day out and still don’t see the results at the range. This is one of the reasons why.

Dryfire needs to be accompanied by an actual explanation of what it does. And what it does not do.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I'm already seeing signs of encephalopathy in young people on these shooting boards.

 

[Steel head]

Dryfire needs to be accompanied by an actual explanation of what it does. And what it does not do.

This is common in all kind of learning environments.
I see it a lot in fly casting
Someone will make 100 casts with no mission or focus and think they’re accomplishing something when all they’re really doing Is impeding progress.

I absolutely think dry firing can help with flinching If it’s done with a mission and focus.
Is it the only way? No.

 

[spife7980]

I'm already seeing signs of encephalopathy in young people on these shooting boards.

 

[MeasureOnceCutTwice]

Something my archery guru teaches, while using seer activated releases, see how long you can apply/build pressure before the shot goes off. When you’re focused on that it’s generally easier to not anticipate the shot

 

[Dthomas3523]

Something my archery guru teaches, while using seer activated releases, see how long you can apply/build pressure before the shot goes off. When you’re focused on that it’s generally easier to not anticipate the shot

Wouldn’t that start reinforcing being surprised by the shot going off?

 

[MeasureOnceCutTwice]

Wouldn’t that start reinforcing being surprised by the shot going off?

unanticipated is what he says. With a gun, if you’re trying to shoot within the respiratory pause, you’ve got to time it somewhat, but still.... with the bow you’re just letting the sight pin float in its natural pattern and you’re slowly building pressure for the release. I don’t know, I’m a hack figuring things out but it’s helped me.

 

[Dthomas3523]

unanticipated is what he says. With a gun, if you’re trying to shoot within the respiratory pause, you’ve got to time it somewhat, but still.... with the bow you’re just letting the sight pin float in its natural pattern and you’re slowly building pressure for the release. I don’t know, I’m a hack figuring things out but it’s helped me.

Makes sense with a bow.

 

[FreQRiDeR]

I have Savage 116 in .300wm and it kicked like a mule until I replaced the tupperware stock with a laminate, (heavy) thumbhole stock with a limbsaver pad. That really helped mitigate the recoil since the thumbhole grip transfers some of it to yhe palm of your hand and off your shoulder. I would put a muzzle brake, since I don’t go to public ranges with it, but the thin contour prohibits cutting threads for a standard brake without shortening the barrel significantly, which I don’t recommend. Custom options are available but at a high price. Truth is, the .300wm is not for everyone. Getting a proper fitting stock/chasis is crucial though, assuming yours is plastic.

 

[ubettcha]

Bring a 22 or 223 to the range! Take the 300 and shoot 1 shot each trip for 5 trips. Check your group size at the house over those 5 trips. If your training with the 22/223 you are shooting alot for fundamental reinforcement! If your buying ammo order some match ammo pick a flavor. If you can't order online call Creedmoor sports.
I would also stop group shooting and start shooting dot drills. You will see how consistent you are and for me it's easier to make every shot count vs gaffing a shot in a group. This is an example of what I'm talking about. This is a 300yd target a few weeks ago. Last shot I didn't wait for my respiratory pause and my heartbeat as I broke the shot. My crosshair moves about 3 inches per beat. The one out is just about 3 inches. The other 4 are about .800.
The trainer will do a bunch of good things a few things not so good. It should help get your shot sequence and protocol correct. Again a dot drill or change of point of aim for each shot will make for more emphasis on the protocol. The thing it does not so well is teaching recoil management. The best way for me is to get less than 1/2moa movement throughout the shot process with my 22. I'm using a model 60 and it's difficult to do when it returns to battery. If you get bored start shooting that 22 to 200 or 300yds.
Stay off the 300 mag for extended periods till your dot drills show 1moa or less deviation.
Dry firing. When I shot sporting clays I would dryfire into a mirror. My protocol was for when the gun hit my mount the trigger broke. slow is smooth smooth is fast. To prove the point I would walk up to the high hoouse put my left arm on the house for distance then with a low gun call for the bird and break it at a 99% clip. It would not have happened without the constant dry firing practice. I was shooting over 100k rounds a year back then so that was on top of that.
Lastly goto any trap shoot and ask the guys that are good what they did are doing to control flinch. They all had to come up with a strategy at some point. Your not alone

 

[HMRamateur]

FOCUS!

Practice dry fire at home. Warm up at the range with a .22. Those all helped, but the main thing that cured my flinch with my magnum hunting rifle, was focusing very hard on staying absolutely relaxed, breathing properly in order to stay calm, and blocking out everything else around you except your sight picture and your trigger squeeze.