FLSizing 308 problem

[1jonathan1994]

I'm using one shot as my lubricant. This is 308 zqi brass from a semi and going to another semi. Bulk ammo not precision.
spraying the one shot on with the brass laid flat in a plastic pan letting it dry. Then shake it up and give another shot or two. I'm not actually standing the shells up in a loading block to spray the one shot. Letting it all dry at least 5 minutes after spraying. About 1 in 10 looking like the picture. Bases start about .472 and the successful cases finish about .470".
Bad cases are way over .480" and about 0.005" long to the datum
What's going on here?
Too much lube?
Not enough lube?
Cheap brass?
Taking too much in one bite?
Dillon 750 with case feeder.
In the past I used a Forster will lanolin lube but... slow. And have to clean it off.

Also, are these cases scrap?

 

[Gustav7]

"And thats how belted magnums are made kids" lol.... j/k

Can you confirm they were all fired from the same semi-auto?

If its range brass, could have been put through a machine gun.

 

[Mr Tibbs]

In my experience to little lub will likely cause a stuck case In the die ,to much lub cause’s dent’s up in the neck area.

 

[bcrich]

That doesn’t look like excessive lube ,I’ve never seen a belt get created by over applying lube something else is going on with those cases ....shit can them & use another head stamp brass .

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I am shocked you sized multiples like that and didn't stick a case. Not even mad, just impressed.

Are you using a small base die, by chance? What are your unsized cases starting at? It looks like a loose chamber resized with a die that's too small, pushing a bunch of material to the case head.

I'd def shitcan the deformed brass. The ones that sized properly are probably ok if they pass a visual inspection, they just probably wont last very long repeatedly sizing them like that.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Cases are scrap.
If you are correctly measuring the base and getting .480+ something is very wrong.

EDIT:
Measuring .200 from the bolt face the maximum chamber dimension is .4714 +.002 so it seems the rifle has a bad chamber.

 

[oneshot onekill]

I don't recall a sharp edge at the bottom of a re-sizing die. Could it be a problem with the die?

 

[Tokay444]

How much are you pushing the shoulder back to completely crush the case like that?

 

[Snuby642]

If your die resizes other brass the solution is simple.

Toss it.

 

[bax]

That is very impressive. I probably would not shoot that case. I would section it and a good case and start measuring - maybe something to learn there.

The SAAMI drawing says that the max chamber diameter is .4738 + 0.002. As noted above, +0.200 from the bolt fact, the max is .4174 + 0.002. If you have brass that is .480, then it is 0.005 larger than "max chamber plus the tolerance".

If you want to save the brass, you might try lubing with Imperial sizing wax. I have never dented a shoulder with it. Yes, you have to tumble it off later.

I do not own a sizing die that can do that and I own well over two sizing dies - RCBS, Redding, Dillon, Lee, and Forster. The mouth of all of my dies is chamfered and could not cut the brass like that. Did it take a lot of force to do that?

 

[pmclaine]

Id consider going to a lanolin/alcohol based lube....

Not that your lube is what caused that but because its often found "One Shot" will stick a rifle case.

Ive used "One Shot" for pistol but for rifle I use Dillon case lube.

Good luck with this problem. Almost would suggest die is out of spec.

Is this a Dillon die? They chamfer their opening to help with the progressive operation.

My usual concern is that the bottom of the case does not size enough where the chamfer of the die does not touch the brass.

 

[Shootnwrench]

That’s not a lube problem. Brass is over expanded at .480, junk it, looks like Glock belly brass.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Not that your lube is what caused that but because its often found "One Shot" will stick a rifle case.

I would say this is good proof that one shot will lubricate cases sufficiently...

 

[pmclaine]

I would say this is good proof that one shot will lubricate cases sufficiently...

Thats intuitive thinking.

This is my first experience with sizer forming belted magnum though.

My anecdotal experience is of regular dies, sizing as expected using "One Shot" and having a case bind......it has a nickname even "One Stuck".

With everything operator adherence to directions is key.

 

[Doom]

Just a comment on One Shot. I tried using it with once fired LC that was probably machine gun brass and it was not sufficient to lubricate the case for that degree of sizing. Had to go to Unique to avoid stuck cases.

 

[Winningdog]

I'm really surprised you could do that to a piece of brass and not get it stuck. Is this nato brass, I stopped using one shot on anything other than 5.56 brass. In truth the price drove me away all together. Been using Unique case lube the last few years. I have stuck a couple of .308 cases with one shot.

 

[oneshot onekill]

That’s not a lube problem. Brass is over expanded at .480, junk it, looks like Glock belly brass.

I thought tat too at first. But I had a rifle that really stretched the brass at the web because of a bad chamber and the die would always squish (technical term) it back to shape with a shiny rub area there.

 

[Shootnwrench]

I thought tat too at first. But I had a rifle that really stretched the brass at the web because of a bad chamber and the die would always squish (technical term) it back to shape with a shiny rub area there.

Agreed fired in an oversized chamber. Metal fatigue is real thing and not something to mess with. I’d scrap it but I’m also not going through my first components shortage.

 

[Wannashootit]

Been using One-Shot for ten years. If you don't angle the nozzle correctly, and spray from both sides to be sure you're getting it into the necks, it'll stick. Clearly, the OP's issue has nothing to do with case lube tho.

 

[1jonathan1994]

OP here
OP here

Thanks for the responses and help. I trashed the “belted cases”. A lot of my problem is trying to short cut things to one brass prep pass on the RL750 vs multi passes through a Forster single stage.

I am using the same honed Forster die for both presses (decap/ball removed) and the bottom of it is beveled. The picture looks like a flat belt but I promise it’s a 45 degree taper on the brass goof up and die. The die has worked well over about 500 brass/1500+ handle pulls in a Forster press.

I have 2 rifles and 4 brass sources.

Factory IMI MATCH brass measured with my tools
CBTDL = 1.618-1.620
Base diameter = .46? going by memory.
Hornady case gage has max length of 1.620 (bolt), min of 1.616 (semi) with my tools.

Rifle A (bullet hose) is a hot rod 3 gun rifle with a massively shot out chamber. NOTE: factory ammo with slow burning powder is a bad fit for an AR10 with an aluminum bolt carrier (ULMOS). The brass is extracted while chamber pressure is still high and it eats the chamber walls and the bolt/barrel extension lugs.
Rifle A brass
CBTDL = 1.627-1.631 with my reloads using fast powder and minimum charges.
Gas off is 1.627 -1.628
CBTDL freedom munition (A-MERC brass) with slow powder and gas turned on = 1.633-1.637....yeah...
Base diameter = .475-.476 pretty consistent whether gas is on or off
I have been using the same batch of ZQI 308 (MKE 14 headstamp) military brass for this gun and stopped firing factory ammo in it. I consider my brass “fireformed” to the headspace lol.
The typical process has been set up on the forster single stage with Imperial Die Wax. Set the die to touch and back off 2 or 3 turns. Run all brass. Tighten a turn or two and repeat. Then finally 3rd or 4th pass size CBTDL = 1.625 or less. Some come out shorter. Others slightly long but I measure them all and hit again…ugh.. Then trim, mandrel, prime, powder, bullet seat on a progressive. Never an issue beyond future arthritis.

Rifle B (new JP barrel) I’m only using my reloads in this one so I can pick fast powders. Steel LMOS is better on the brass anyway.
Rifle B Brass
CBTDL = 1.621 gas off, 1.621 - 1.622 gas on.
Base diameter = .471-.472?
I have only used new IMI MATCH brass in this gun, but I plan to size some of its previously fired brass back 0.002 to factory specs to fit the hornady case gage this weekend. Perhaps this will actually work in one hit on the 750 with One Shot. I REALLY don’t want to keep cranking bulk ammo on the Forster. If this does not work on the 750 in one brass prep pass, then none of my 308 brass will work on a progressive.

Brass C – Also ZQI military, but MKE 15 headstamp. Bought from a member here - fired from an M1A. THIS IS THE STUFF IN THE OPENING PICTURE.
CBTDL = 1.622-1.623 so only barely longer than my JP chamber
Base Diameter .471-.472? Same as my JP.
I tried to get this stuff down to 1.620 or less to fit the hornady case gage (in one hit) on the RL750 and ONE SHOT.
Some GREW LONGER by a few thousandths on the first pass, but a second pass generally put them in spec. Some were 1.618-1.620 and fit the gage first hit. A few were in the 1.615 range first hit….hmph..
And 1 out of 10 or so was 1.625-1.633 with ballooned bases or full blown belts per the picture above. None of these would shorten on a second pass no matter what I tried. A few had visible damaged bases after resizing, but would still fit in Rifle A’s chamber.

I should have just put ALL THIS BRASS in the single stage and used the FLS die as a neck die and dedicated it all to Rifle A (bullet hose) but too late now. It fit in Rifle A chamber with NO resizing LOL. HORRIBLE I KNOW.

I have an extended roller handle on the 750 and if I went slow the press would pop and scream and try to stick. Not sure how long I can get lucky doing that aggressive quick pull and return stroke. Definitely, the forster is an order of magnitude smoother AND more accurate than the 750 for sizing 308 sized military brass. I sold my 550, but I was able to shoulder bump Dasher on it. I fear the 550 design was better for such because the shells all sat on the bed. On the 750, the shells sit on top of the shell plate which may not be the same thickness in each station.

Now I still have other brass from the M1A/snipers hide member of various headstamps and manufacture. If I cant get some Rifle B’s IMI brass to size to fit the case gage on one pass in the RL750, I’ll just have to run EVERYTHING on the single stage…

 

[bax]

Well that's complicated. Greatly simplifying your post, I think you are trying to make bulk 308 ammo that fits all your guns. But you have all sorts of chamber sizes and brass in various conditions and you are trying lots of approaches in order to reach your goal. If I understand the requirement, I have a suggestion. There is a nice man in Oregon, JGS, buy a 308 reamer and a headspace gauge. Buy new barrels for everything (or, failing that, as you retire barrels or set them back) rechamber using that reamer and gauge. If you do it right, chambers and headspace will all be the same. If the chamber is standard size, most decent brass (that is, non-machine gun stuff) will fit - the brass that doesn't fit probably shouldn't be used. I suppose that I am wasting electrons here but that's the solution.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I have an extended roller handle on the 750 and if I went slow the press would pop and scream and try to stick.

Red Flag. It should be just as smooth sizing on the 750 as anything else, there should not be any popping and jerking. That usually indicates a lube issue.

Also, not sure how taking three passes on the forster didn't tip you off that something was out of spec, or thinking that somehow the 750 would be able to muscle four passes worth of work in one shot. You need to stop sizing like this and figure out what is going on and either load differently for your blown out chamber or just stop picking up brass out of that gun.

EDIT: I don't read good.

 

[1jonathan1994]

OP here

Major update.

First item
I found that my #1 shell plate was out of kilter somewhere. Brand new it dragged in one location and I had to set shell plate tension based on that spot. That problem never went away. I was getting 0.015 variation in final sizing (with good brass) and noticed about 1 out of 5 was shorter than the rest by at least 0.005”. changed to the #1 shell plate from my 45 conversion kit and all was good with no tight spot either.

Second item
I tried the IMI brass from the JP gun with Dillon spray lube and 90% came in measurement the first time with no headaches – smooth running. The rest I put back in the hopper and a second pass fixed most with only a few needing a final finesse. SWEEET!!!

So that had me thinking it was just the ZQI (MKE 14) brass and/or One Shot and the rest should be a breeze with Dillon spray lube.

NOPE!!!!
I throw everything else in the hopper and break pins, hearts, spirits, etc…IT WAS HORRIBLE. Even a stuck case. I got about a third through my 308 brass collection and then I just backed the die out 1/4 turn and run them all…eventually…painfully…

Some would slide in and were obviously barely touched. Others nearly stuck and I had to work the handle a bit. Of course nothing was usable and 1/4 turn out, just hit once to get the bodies and necks close.

Then I spent HOURS sorting by headstamp. Unfortunately this seems key to bulk and range sourced 308 even though most of it was from the same gun.

Finally, I turned the die to the desired height and started with the commercial Hornady and Federal brass. Both these went pretty good. I ended up pulling everything from station 4 and measuring it. If it passed, I put it back in 4 so the .306 turning mandrels could finish them in station 5. If not, put them aside. Then turned the die down and bit and re-ran the rest. Not bad. The Federal brass actually measured out more consistent than Hornady.

Much of the other headstamps were massive headaches. DEFINITELY, different brands needed the die set to different heights. So each headstamp was like a new set up. LC was pretty hard. Some Range pick up MEN 16 was very easy. Measuring every case sucks. Measuring the trouble cases 2 or 3 or even 5 times sucks.

End result I have about:
300 cases ready for bulk bullets and minimum charges.

just over 100 each of Hornady and Federal cases for some full pressure hunting ammo (125 Nosler Accubonds for deer and 125 Speer TNT for coyotes/piggys).

300 ZQI cases that will ONLY fit my 308 with headspace issues.

The IMI I have 100 resized and another 900 new in box. Might just save them and try to extinct the bulk brass first.

I ended up throwing away about 50 berden primed cases.

Also trashed about 20 cases that ballooned out at the very back of the case to where they would not fit in a hornady case gage. This is what the ZQI brass did, but the ZQI was worse.

I just put the cases into a towel on the floor and rubbed the lube off. I’m sure the necks still have some lube and the bodies don’t feel bone dry, but good enough for 3 gun ammo. Still better than having to clean corn cob media from flash holes and primer pockets.

Now I have another late night in front of the Frankford Arsenal prep station trimming brass to length before I can get the powder out.

Third item
I have done 2000+ 6.5 Creedmoor and 6 Dasher on both a 550 and Hornady Ammo Plant with great and easy results….often using one shot. The only real differences I can see is LAPUA BRASS, ANNEALING, and BOLT GUNS. I don’t really want to take my bulk brass to my buddies house and spend hours on his annealing machine, but before I spend 2 weekends fighting brass CBTDL issues I’ll buy him a steak and take a vacation day to anneal.

 

[spife7980]

Just quit buying shit pretrashed brass and buy one lot of something new and reputable.

 

[Snuby642]

Just got through loading federall brass with 168 smk and cfe223.

No problems on a cheap lee die and lee single stage.

Several hundred since last die adjustments and still running within 0.0005 on shoulders I measured.

Now to hit the 2500 node for this gun and see if there is one at 2700 because there is nothing in the middle. Lol

 

[1jonathan1994]

Just quit buying shit pretrashed brass and buy one lot of something new and reputable.

Yeah.,.. wish I would have bought about 3000 of the IMI match before everything went extinct.