Hey guys half way through my custom build. Rifle is going to be a .260 Remington with a Bartlien M40 contour. I was thinking of having medium heavy straight fluting done to the barrel. Will this effect anything or should I not have it fluted? Thanks guys !
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Do you like the look of flutes? Get them. They will reduce some weight but don't fall into the hype trap
I like how they look. A barrel done properly by the barrel maker himself or Kampfeld won't lose accuracy.
However, I see it as a big waste of money, considering the barrel only lasts a year(ish) for me.
Also, if at any time the rifle isn't shooting how you think it oughtta, you'll be second guessing those flutes.
However, I see it as a big waste of money, considering the barrel only lasts a year(ish) for me.
Also, if at any time the rifle isn't shooting how you think it oughtta, you'll be second guessing those flutes.
That's it. Look at it as purely cosmetic with a tiny bit of saved weight as a bonus. If you like the look of flutes then treat yourself. Karl Kampfeld and Boltfluter (Hide name) will do a great job. If you want the flutes just get them done before any chambering work is done.
Hey guys,
I have the capability to flute the barrel with the action attached. Just thought you might like to know.
Thanks, Paul
I have the capability to flute the barrel with the action attached. Just thought you might like to know.
Thanks, Paul
only way flutes are worth it is if you A)have a caliber with decent barrel life and B) have em cut deep as fuck to actually have some weight trimmed
Theoretically, you could also get a heavier contour and flute it to get the same weight as a lighter contour. Interested in reading more about the AI research. Anyone have a link to the original article?
It's about what you want and in some cases if you need it.
I like the way flutes look but also I carry my rifle on long hunts over hilly and uneven terrain so the weight saving is worth it. It's your choice.
I like the way flutes look but also I carry my rifle on long hunts over hilly and uneven terrain so the weight saving is worth it. It's your choice.
If you want an ultralight hunting rig, maybe. If you like the way it looks OK. Otherwise just get the appropriate contour on the barrel to start with. Shaving a little weight on a 15lb rifle, priceless.
when you toss that barrel, the flutes go with it, waste of money. Flute the bolt instead.
cheers.
cheers.
I have two barrels that are deep fluted and a bunch more that aren't. If weight savings is critical, it does help. My fluted barrels unquestionably stay cooler than my unfluted barrels during extended strings.
Kampfeld just fluted an M40 profile barrel and two bolts. Awesome work and fast turn around. They look bad ass and he states fluting does t effect accuracy.
I have read article after article from this expert and that expert. I have decided that I get flutes purely for the weight savings. If you just lay in the prone, depending on whose kool aid you drink you may or may not need them. I carry my rifle a lot and a few ounces to a lb of of weight savings may not seem like a lot but when you walk for more than a few miles every little bit helps. That's just my opinion.
I wouldn't waste my money on fluting a barrel. The cost isn't worth "looking cool" or the 3 or 4 oz. of weight savings. If that 4 oz makes a difference to me, I'll cut the barrel shorter, or save weight somewhere else. I'll put that $150 toward the next barrel that will be worn out in about one to two years' time.
Tyler, although I fully agree with your opinion, deep fluting on a 26"+ barrel is at least 1 lb. I know this as we compared two exact barrels, one fluted one not, at GAP.
I didn't realize anybody offered that deep a fluting. Guess it would have to be a very thick contour to be able to remove that much.
Most of the fluting I'd seen was a few ounces. I hadn't seen any that reduced it that much. That would make me avoid it more! Haha
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This is true of lower quality barrels that may not have not been properly de-stressed during the manufacturing process. Premium barrels don't usually have this problem. I just got a 26" Bartlein in 260 Rem for my DTA from SAC. It's a pretty heavy profile and it was deep fluted by Kempfield Customs. This took nearly a pound off the barrel and if it diminished accuracy, I sure can't tell. It's more accurate than I am.
Some others on this thread have expressed the opinion that even if you can shed a pound off the weight, it still isn't worth $150 to them. Well, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. But remember this... It's not JUST a pound. It's specifically a pound off the barrel which has a very noticeable and positive affect on the rifles balance. If you're always shooting prone or off a bench and don't need to carry the rifle in the field, then you are probably right about fluting being a waste of money. But if you use your rifle for hunting, matches or genuine tactical use, $150 is not a lot of money for the benefits gained.
A recent discussion on the topic,
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/183467-barrel-fluting-%3D-poi-shift.html
Per that discussion:
- testing has shown that fluting can negatively impact the accuracy of a barrel. There is no guarantee that it will, but it has been shown without a doubt that it can have impacts on the barrels performance.
- most worst case scenarios are fluting a button rifled barrel, especially if the barrel was not properly stress managed/relieved.
- barrels that are run hard and go through full thermal cycles are most likely to exhibit problems, versus barrels that are shot at a slow/measured pace and do not have a lot of heating & cooling cycles.
If you have a properly made barrel with cut rifling and the fluting is done properly with stress being managed throughout the process, chances are you will end up with a good barrel. On the other hand if you have a barrel with stress in it, then fluting can cause issues.
Personally, I am going to use the barrel profile that works for what I need, if I do that, there is no need or benefit to the fluting. Sorry, I shoot my rifles for performance/results, so the "looks thing" is not on my radar screen.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/183467-barrel-fluting-%3D-poi-shift.html
Per that discussion:
- testing has shown that fluting can negatively impact the accuracy of a barrel. There is no guarantee that it will, but it has been shown without a doubt that it can have impacts on the barrels performance.
- most worst case scenarios are fluting a button rifled barrel, especially if the barrel was not properly stress managed/relieved.
- barrels that are run hard and go through full thermal cycles are most likely to exhibit problems, versus barrels that are shot at a slow/measured pace and do not have a lot of heating & cooling cycles.
If you have a properly made barrel with cut rifling and the fluting is done properly with stress being managed throughout the process, chances are you will end up with a good barrel. On the other hand if you have a barrel with stress in it, then fluting can cause issues.
Personally, I am going to use the barrel profile that works for what I need, if I do that, there is no need or benefit to the fluting. Sorry, I shoot my rifles for performance/results, so the "looks thing" is not on my radar screen.
LRShooter, that's pretty much the way I see it. Go with a manageable profile from the onset.
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To the Moderators: Take a look at the other posts "decider" here has graced us with. They're all pretty much the same disgusting crap he is spewing here. This guy brings no value to this forum what so ever. Most of us are here to learn and share knowledge. Decider is here for no other reason than to be a nuisance.
How about banning this troll?
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I love the look of fluted barrels and try not to buy into the loss of accuracy hype, but of my five custom R700s, the two I have had fluted don't shoot as well as the others. Coincidence maybe, but I won't flute another.
Flutes don't make a huge difference on weight but with a fat barrel like an M40 and depending on the stock it may make or break a well balanced rifle. Deeps flutes certainly can reduce enough weight to make a rifle balance right with lighter stocks. The added surface area (while reducing mass does make it heat quick) does help the barrel cool faster too.
If I need to to help balance the rifle I will pay for fluting. If it's a heavy barrel chambered in a round with good barrel life I'll typically do it anyway. On a barrel burner that's well balanced anyway I think it's a waste.
If I need to to help balance the rifle I will pay for fluting. If it's a heavy barrel chambered in a round with good barrel life I'll typically do it anyway. On a barrel burner that's well balanced anyway I think it's a waste.
They found that fluting them to deep effected the harmonics and the barrel getting hot etc... Doesn't help anything as well.
I would never flute a button rifled barrel.
You flute our barrel to deep we will not warranty it. We have no control over how deep guys take the flutes.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Instead of retyping everything check out this thread.......
Thanks to LRShooter101 for bumping it and bringing it back to life.......
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...rifles/183467-barrel-fluting-=-poi-shift.html
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Thanks to LRShooter101 for bumping it and bringing it back to life.......
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...rifles/183467-barrel-fluting-=-poi-shift.html
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
To add onto this -- I remember reading, very recently, that fluting is never 100% because of material variation within the barrel...I don't recall if it was AI or, whom did the testing but, the last time we had this discussion, that study came to light.
Densities within the barrel CAN vary so, it makes sense but, as to if that flute is going to cause that big of an impact OVER that variation, enough to effect accuracy? I don't think you'll ever get that answer.
I imagine they continue to sell old stock...But, this is from a 2013 sniper magazine (SavageStag found this):
“ ….. One design change that resulted from AI’s exhaustive accuracy testing and development for the PSR is the removal of flutes from the barrel. Engineers at AI decided to isolate the barrel flutes to see what impact they had on accuracy. The Engineers attached a laser to the rifle’s receiver, another to the barrel, and a third laser to the scope. All three dots were zeroed to the same point, then they started shooting the rifle. They discovered that, no matter which fluted barrel they used the dots would diverge as the barrel heated. The dots from the lasers mounted to the scope and receiver would stay in place, but the barrels laser would manifest a POI shift. The POI shift from the warming barrel greatly diminished when they used barrels without flutes. Engineers determined that the flutes never heated evenly causing the POI shift. I hope that the results of this test gain wide circulation through the Sniper and Long Range Shooting Communities to help eliminate some of the ignorance that surrounds the perceived advantages of barrel flutes. …..”
I know that you guys are the experts, so I will not attempt to argue. All I know is that I have done my share of shooting over the last 50 years with many different weapon systems and my Desert Tactical is more accurate than I can possibly shoot.
My 16" .308 factory barrel is non fluted and sub 1/2 moa
My 26" .338L factory barrel is fluted and sub 1/2 moa
My 22.5" .338L Bartlein SAC is deep spiral fluted and sub 1/2 moa
My 22.5" .6.5x47L Bartlein SAC is deep spiral fluted and sub 1/2 moa
I had Mark spin up the short barrels deep fluted for packing my rifle in 7-11000' elevations for miles of mountain hunting on foot and can say it was worth every penny for me...very handy, especially suppressed and for sure lighter. They are just as accurate or more so than any non-fluted barrels I have now or in the past.
I know this is a small sample and just my experience - but they are my favorite practical barrels...I did not do the flutes for looks.
My 16" .308 factory barrel is non fluted and sub 1/2 moa
My 26" .338L factory barrel is fluted and sub 1/2 moa
My 22.5" .338L Bartlein SAC is deep spiral fluted and sub 1/2 moa
My 22.5" .6.5x47L Bartlein SAC is deep spiral fluted and sub 1/2 moa
I had Mark spin up the short barrels deep fluted for packing my rifle in 7-11000' elevations for miles of mountain hunting on foot and can say it was worth every penny for me...very handy, especially suppressed and for sure lighter. They are just as accurate or more so than any non-fluted barrels I have now or in the past.
I know this is a small sample and just my experience - but they are my favorite practical barrels...I did not do the flutes for looks.
Per ABOVE,
A properly constructed fluted barrel may be as accurate as a non-fluted barrel. It is not an all or nothing argument, not all fluted barrels are garbage, not all fluted barrels are sub moa shooters. While it seems to come off as some kind of "black magic", the magic ultimately comes down to the quality of the manufacturing process, both the initial construction of the barrel, and the fluting process. Stress, inconsistent thickness, measurement errors, machining errors, off-center bore, can all lead to issues in a fluted barrel.
Rifle / Barrel Performance can be measure under a number of criteria/metrics. Per above, the greatest issues with fluted barrels were noted when then barrels were going through full cycles of heating and cooling. If your rifle/barrel does not see these extremes, then you may not see any performance issues.
Simple Answer - spec/build your barrel with the right contour from the start, and none of this will be an issue.
Complicated / Long Answer - if you do decide to flute your barrel, per everything above, there are a number of factors that can impact what the outcome may be. It may be great, it may suck, and there may be no simple or easy way to know what the answer will be.
Frank, thanks as always for taking the time to share your knowledge.
As already mentioned,tool geometry, sharpness ,speeds,feeds,indeed will all effect induced stress...
There are people out there trying to get the last amount of life out of their cutters, in the least amount of time...these people should not be fluting barrels,or machining anything else for that matter...But if propperly done,a barrel can be fluted with minimal stress...I would think the amount of stress between a quality, fluted barrel and a non fluted barrel would overlap by sample size...
Getting beyond that,I'd like to touch on the myth about a larger diameter,fluted barrel being stronger than a smaller diameter, non fluted barrel of the same weight...
Though this may be true in the diagonal lines parallel to the bore,it is not in axially or radially applied forces...
In that a fluted barrel is less able to resist the "twisting" forces imparted on the bullet...
This would also seem to be more pronounced with an increase in both bullet weight and with an increase in twist...
And yet,if the resistance and recovery of a fluted barrel to these forces were consistent and predictable,it would be a non issue in terms of accuracy...
I would very much like to see an FEA on this...surely someone has done it...
But after all that,the bottom line is that it is possible to make an accurate, fluted barrel...
We have craftsman on here that do it everyday...
There are people out there trying to get the last amount of life out of their cutters, in the least amount of time...these people should not be fluting barrels,or machining anything else for that matter...But if propperly done,a barrel can be fluted with minimal stress...I would think the amount of stress between a quality, fluted barrel and a non fluted barrel would overlap by sample size...
Getting beyond that,I'd like to touch on the myth about a larger diameter,fluted barrel being stronger than a smaller diameter, non fluted barrel of the same weight...
Though this may be true in the diagonal lines parallel to the bore,it is not in axially or radially applied forces...
In that a fluted barrel is less able to resist the "twisting" forces imparted on the bullet...
This would also seem to be more pronounced with an increase in both bullet weight and with an increase in twist...
And yet,if the resistance and recovery of a fluted barrel to these forces were consistent and predictable,it would be a non issue in terms of accuracy...
I would very much like to see an FEA on this...surely someone has done it...
But after all that,the bottom line is that it is possible to make an accurate, fluted barrel...
We have craftsman on here that do it everyday...
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Well,fluting a barrel must not affect accuracy if it is done correctly.Bartlein barrels are in the top 5 for quality barrels and they offer fluted barrels for sale.I don't think they would offer this as an option if they thought it could or would affect the accuracy of there product.
Their page says they won't warranty deep fluted barrels for what it's worth. Read what Frank has already posted here.
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Some good reading here as I will be checking my new barrel out for accuracy. I asked the Smith to go as deep as possible and why it may be hard to tell from the pics, the flutes are deep, trust me. Wish I would have checked the weight before and after as there was a lot of material taken off. The rifle is a Savage with a 24" CBI Varmit profile(.840" at the muzzle), the barreled action weighs 5.5lbs, with the Manners EH1, it comes in a little under 9lbs.
I hope it shoots as good as it looks, lol.
I hope it shoots as good as it looks, lol.
Attachments
this is from a 2013 sniper magazine (SavageStag found this):
“ ….. One design change that resulted from AI’s exhaustive accuracy testing and development for the PSR is the removal of flutes from the barrel. Engineers at AI decided to isolate the barrel flutes to see what impact they had on accuracy. The Engineers attached a laser to the rifle’s receiver, another to the barrel, and a third laser to the scope. All three dots were zeroed to the same point, then they started shooting the rifle. They discovered that, no matter which fluted barrel they used the dots would diverge as the barrel heated. The dots from the lasers mounted to the scope and receiver would stay in place, but the barrels laser would manifest a POI shift. The POI shift from the warming barrel greatly diminished when they used barrels without flutes. Engineers determined that the flutes never heated evenly causing the POI shift. I hope that the results of this test gain wide circulation through the Sniper and Long Range Shooting Communities to help eliminate some of the ignorance that surrounds the perceived advantages of barrel flutes. …..”
I know what there web site say's and I read Frank's post on this thread.So read my post correctly.I said quote [If It Is Done Correctly] meaning all aspect's of the fluting process.[Depth.Stress Relief after fluting,lapping after fluting]and anything else I am missing.
Sorry, but do people actually bother to read this stuff, or do they just read the post title and comment? 
The same exact quote about the AI Barrel Testing from the Sniper Magazine Article is posted on here twice, not to mention it is also posted in the original topic on barrel fluting with the link posted to it in this topic?
Someone is talking about what Bartlein Barrels will or will not do, with Frank providing direct feedback here?
Someone is trying to make it an all or nothing argument, when that is not really the case?
I kind of honestly wonder sometimes if there is any real point?
The same exact quote about the AI Barrel Testing from the Sniper Magazine Article is posted on here twice, not to mention it is also posted in the original topic on barrel fluting with the link posted to it in this topic?
Someone is talking about what Bartlein Barrels will or will not do, with Frank providing direct feedback here?
Someone is trying to make it an all or nothing argument, when that is not really the case?
I kind of honestly wonder sometimes if there is any real point?
There is a point.
Most of us do not have your experience. Some of us may and do not care to publish it.
I can only speak for myself and my equipment. I do read everything I can get my hands on, including these links and threads. Good stuff.
Just give some folks a little time, that's all.
Many just find it difficult to accept documentation such as presented when they have already spent their hard earned cash on something that may or may not be the best.
Patience...much is learned here by many.
Thanks for your insight, input and providing real world validation for everyone here on the Forum.
Most of us do not have your experience. Some of us may and do not care to publish it.
I can only speak for myself and my equipment. I do read everything I can get my hands on, including these links and threads. Good stuff.
Just give some folks a little time, that's all.
Many just find it difficult to accept documentation such as presented when they have already spent their hard earned cash on something that may or may not be the best.
Patience...much is learned here by many.
Thanks for your insight, input and providing real world validation for everyone here on the Forum.
