Flyer's
- Thread starter Brux
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Bullet grip http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-more-to-neck-tension-than-just-bushing-size/
Bullet consistency in its construction
Bullet consistency in its construction
You'll have to define a little more how bad the flyers are. You may have to live with it unless your really have OCD reloading syndrome. Then
You could get a 21st century hydro seater press that measure seating pressure. Better scales,just depends on how much money you want to spend on the one flier.
You could get a 21st century hydro seater press that measure seating pressure. Better scales,just depends on how much money you want to spend on the one flier.
Flyers can be human, bullet construction/imperfections, poor barrel node, uneven neck thickness (round is concentric but neck isn't so it chambers inconsistently), wrong seating depth window, bedding, mechanical issues with scope and more.
Need more details about what your loading and doing to assist with ideas.
Bullet?
Avg group?
Avg flyer from group center?
How many per 10 shot group?
What distance?
I could go on... But you get the idea; post some extra detail and examples if possible.
Need more details about what your loading and doing to assist with ideas.
Bullet?
Avg group?
Avg flyer from group center?
How many per 10 shot group?
What distance?
I could go on... But you get the idea; post some extra detail and examples if possible.
Rifle is bedded.
175 GR SMK
Avg Group 1/2 inch or better
Flyer 1/2 inch from group
100YDS
Sinclair expander mandrel
Seating depth seems to be consistent within a couple thou of each other. 2270 base to ogive 20 thou off lands
2 Scopes have been on rifle. A nightforce and a bushnell with nightforce rings and nightforce pic rail
175 GR SMK
Avg Group 1/2 inch or better
Flyer 1/2 inch from group
100YDS
Sinclair expander mandrel
Seating depth seems to be consistent within a couple thou of each other. 2270 base to ogive 20 thou off lands
2 Scopes have been on rifle. A nightforce and a bushnell with nightforce rings and nightforce pic rail
Seating depth needs to be within 0.001 as measured with a comparator just like Team Lapua sets up there ammo.
The outliers can be used for hunting plinking and fouling after you clean the barrel.
At 100 yards neck tension can cause a flyer but only if it is really bad as in a normal closing of the bolt versus Palma the bolt closed like on a fitted neck round.
After that bad bullets will do this all day long.
When Hornady came out with there best heavy 6mm bullet about 7-9 years ago we where all getting 3-2 groups unless we sorted each box of bullets.
The outliers can be used for hunting plinking and fouling after you clean the barrel.
At 100 yards neck tension can cause a flyer but only if it is really bad as in a normal closing of the bolt versus Palma the bolt closed like on a fitted neck round.
After that bad bullets will do this all day long.
When Hornady came out with there best heavy 6mm bullet about 7-9 years ago we where all getting 3-2 groups unless we sorted each box of bullets.
You don't have to anneal after each firing...every 4 or 5 firings. Also are using an expander mandrel in your FL sizer?
I am still using the expander mandrel in the die but mainly because it has the decapping pin on it. It measures 306 and my Sinclair mandrel measures 307 so I use the Sinclair mandrel as my final sizing process.
And if I seat my 1st bullet to measure 2270 ogive and the next one comes out 2269 or 2271 going to make that much of a difference?
And if I seat my 1st bullet to measure 2270 ogive and the next one comes out 2269 or 2271 going to make that much of a difference?
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You might try taking out the expander mandrel and decapping separately. I think it is worth trying.
It's pretty unlikely unless you are at a bad seating depth node. I'd try a different lot of bullets before going too far down the rabbit hole.
I had a lot of 300 Hornady 140 ELDs that shot amazing. Ran out and opened new lot #, loaded them and they suddenly shot 1 MOAish. Usually one bullet landing way out of group. Called Hornady and that lot shot exactly double the average group that the first lot did, mirroring my results.
If flyers are always in similar situations relative to main group, try +-.1 GR from current charge and see if flyers dissappear. You might be right on the edge of stable accuracy node and decreasing/increasing charge will fix issue.
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No if your best accuracy is at 2.270 inches 0.001 on either side won't throw a wide flyer just a minor increase in group size.
If you have two comparators mount them to a set of calipers and measure your bullets bearing surface.
It doesn't matter what length you use as long as they are all batched in like groups.
So what is the best way to find out if your neck tension is all the same on the brass your using? I'm missing something that I can't figure out. I have been reloading for a long time and load for several different rifles and calibers and I shouldn't be having a problem loading for a 308. I know its not the rifle or the optic's or me because it shoots factory ammo great.
If you can determine that the flyer is load related, not rifle related you can make adjustments to your load to pull it in. I've fixed random flyers several different ways. If it's 2 together and one kicked out, often times a +/- .010" seating depth adjustment pulls it in. If it's a four or five shot group with a flyer, I've pulled it in by adjusting the load by a .1 to .2 of powder. I've also seen different primers pull flyers in.
A couple things, I'm taking that you are shooting 3 shot groups, if so, after the flier, fire the 4th and fifth shot and see where they land. If you have one good group with another satellite 2 shot group that is tight, I would say pressure, bedding, or something loose. Are you building some pressure from not cleaning properly?
Try not expanding with the mandrel, see what just a tad more tension gives you.
You asked how can you measure seating force, an arbor press with an indicator is about all you can do. I tried this myself, not for me, my bullets were just starting to touch powder in the case, and my readings looked like nothing that I had saw on vids of the process. Seating into empty cases, it was fine, but in reality, I had the same feeling seating with my coax so it revealed nothing I did not know.
You can run a seat depth test, I myself seat bullets long, and take my press, die, measuring tools to the range, seating random crap at home and shooting it has never worked for me.
Try not expanding with the mandrel, see what just a tad more tension gives you.
You asked how can you measure seating force, an arbor press with an indicator is about all you can do. I tried this myself, not for me, my bullets were just starting to touch powder in the case, and my readings looked like nothing that I had saw on vids of the process. Seating into empty cases, it was fine, but in reality, I had the same feeling seating with my coax so it revealed nothing I did not know.
You can run a seat depth test, I myself seat bullets long, and take my press, die, measuring tools to the range, seating random crap at home and shooting it has never worked for me.
I took my expander mandrel out of my FL die, sized some cases and then ran my Sinclair expander mandrel in the neck to finish my sizing process. That's one change I made to case prep. I rechecked stock torque,scope etc. Its a custom John Whidden stock with a chassis that has been bedded also. Everything checked out good.I had a chance to shoot some groups today and did not have any flyers but I won't know for sure until I try the same thing again as far as with the change that I made with my sizing process. No pressure signs, the load that I'm shooting is 4064/41.5 grains/2623FPS/20 thou off.
Dam mirage was terrible when I was at the range but here are some groups I shot.
Dam mirage was terrible when I was at the range but here are some groups I shot.
Attachments
I shoot almost the identical load. It works with Lake City LR cases and Lapua cases - identical settings. It shoots well in several different guns - I have to dork around with the shoulder bump to match different chambers but my cases, primer, charge, bullets, and seating depth are the same because it fits in all of my magazines. I have less jump than you - about 15 thou - I make mine 2.825 for a max-length of 2.840 with that bullet. Since the bullets aren't perfect, the COL varies about plus or minus 3 or 4, never mind. I just bought a new seater plug for my Wilson seater, I plan to fit it to the bullet shape.
Could it be you or conditions? Shouldering? Clenching weak hand at moment of firing? Lifting your head? Different loading on the bipod? Less than ideal NPA? Reticle not centered in scope image? Switchy head wind? I want to shoot them but I usually suck
Gusts? Light changes? Trigger push, pull, or snatch? All of those plus loose stuff has given me flyers - usually it is me forcing a shot. I have gotten really anal about torque and loctite so much fewer loose things lately. I can disassemble a gun right down to individual pieces of metal, reassemble and torque and first round is within 3 inches. In order to get that, I have to leave the rings on the scope and bed the scope base. It is not that good every time but often enough.
Shoot 5-shot or 10-shot groups. That will tell you want the system is doing - gun, conditions, ammo, and shooter.
In the dark ages I shot benchrest. After each match, they post all the targets for all to see. Targets are scored by group size. Many targets showed a weather report - nice not-quite horizontal line, light wind lower, stronger wind higher. Other targets showed 4 in a bughole and a flyer. Most BR guns can shoot bugholes all day if the nut behind the wheel does his or her part and doesn't miss a condition. The flyers were almost always one or the other. In this context a bughole is a .150 or better group. At that time, there was an NBRSA patch you got if you shot an "official screamer" - a group that measured less than a tenth of an inch out of round at 100 yards or less than two tenths of an inch out of round at 200 - in an official match. I think my best was a .117 at 100 and .293 inches at 200. Times change.
Could it be you or conditions? Shouldering? Clenching weak hand at moment of firing? Lifting your head? Different loading on the bipod? Less than ideal NPA? Reticle not centered in scope image? Switchy head wind? I want to shoot them but I usually suck
Gusts? Light changes? Trigger push, pull, or snatch? All of those plus loose stuff has given me flyers - usually it is me forcing a shot. I have gotten really anal about torque and loctite so much fewer loose things lately. I can disassemble a gun right down to individual pieces of metal, reassemble and torque and first round is within 3 inches. In order to get that, I have to leave the rings on the scope and bed the scope base. It is not that good every time but often enough. Shoot 5-shot or 10-shot groups. That will tell you want the system is doing - gun, conditions, ammo, and shooter.
In the dark ages I shot benchrest. After each match, they post all the targets for all to see. Targets are scored by group size. Many targets showed a weather report - nice not-quite horizontal line, light wind lower, stronger wind higher. Other targets showed 4 in a bughole and a flyer. Most BR guns can shoot bugholes all day if the nut behind the wheel does his or her part and doesn't miss a condition. The flyers were almost always one or the other. In this context a bughole is a .150 or better group. At that time, there was an NBRSA patch you got if you shot an "official screamer" - a group that measured less than a tenth of an inch out of round at 100 yards or less than two tenths of an inch out of round at 200 - in an official match. I think my best was a .117 at 100 and .293 inches at 200. Times change.
