FNG having problems loading for AR15 **FIXED**

[dlxcupid]

I just started getting into reloading, I mean literally started last week. I needed some much needed advice here. I can't seem to chamber the rounds I reload. My BCG hangs about 1/4 from chamber on about 50% of the rounds I load. Some rounds also get stuck in the chamber when I'm trying to cycle through rounds I loaded(ie: can't seem to get the BCG pulled back trying to cycle.)

Let's start out with equipment:

Redding Big Boss 2
Redding regular FL die set(not competition or bushing type)
FC brass
Hornady 55gr FMJ w/ cannelure
CCI No.41 primers with AA2230

Homebrew AR15 with LaRue Stealth upper. 1-8 twist, 16" barrel with Wylde chamber

1 - Keep on collapsing shoulders when I try to crimp the bullet. I have no clue what I'm doing wrong here. As per instructions, move ram all the way up and screw seating die down until it just barely kisses the shellholder. 1 full turn counterclockwise to remove crimp. Tried seating bullet without crimp and still having same problems with chambering.

2 - Appears that the shoulder is contacting the feedramps. When I finally free the round from the chamber, I can see carbon residue on the lip of the shoulder.

3 - I'm comparing sizes between the rounds I load and XM193. At the top of the case just below the shoulder, I'm measuring 0.355 - 0.357. With XM193, I'm getting 0.349 - 0.352. I also dick around with the FL die, not getting any changes going counter clockwise or clockwise.

Cases are trimmed down to book spec (1.746-1.751), chamfered, etc on a Hornady case prep center. COL 2.20" as per Hornady manual.

I have read ABCs or reloading 9th edition twice and it doesn't really go into detail on troubleshooting, seems like everything is in a perfect world scenario, Murphy's law does not apply in that book. I have a Hornady 8th edition reloading and Sierra's 5th edition reloading manual.

Am I one of the unlucky few thas has to go with small base dies? Is there any other tools I'm missing? Do I need to get one of those headspace/comparator gauges? I've been dicking around with this bs for half a day now and it's driving me nuts! Thanks in advance guys!


A little before and after! Excuse the mess on the shelf, still in the process of trying to reload and organizing stuff at the same time.

 

[Topgunner526]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

PM sent

 

[JuniperEyes]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Are you using brass that was fired in another rifle or this rifle only?

 

[stranded]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

first off, Nice set up. next pictures of problem rounds needed. I'm leaning toward your seating die screwed in waaay to far. If I try to crimp,I put the empty trimmed case in ram. No die inplace then extend ram then screw in seating die until I can just feel it touch case mouth. Next make sure cannelure of bullet is centered in case mouth using seating stem not hole die. If this does not apply to you see second sentence.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Redding dies are cut on the large size but it's in the .0001's not .001's in die
size differences. Wylde chambers are not tight at all, only the freebore is tighter
than other chambers. Maybe you are not bumping the shoulder back enough with
your sizing die. But sticking a 1/4" out sounds more like diameter not shoulder.
If they are full auto once fired you may need a small base die for those cases. I never have and I have the same chamber. I use forester dies and they are cut on
the small end of die specs. Do yourself a big favor, buy a separate crimp die and
a wilson case gauge. Drop every case in it after sizing them.
Also check your chamber for a carbon ring at the neck/throat junction. Oven
cleaner will take it out if you're not stocked up on bore cleaners.
Not getting any change in the full length die is not good. If you are bumping
the shoulders at all you would wrinkle the shoulders bad screwing it another
turn down.

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Left to right:

1x fired from my rifle/tumbled only, FL sized, obviously collapsed shoulder, next 2 are rounds that hang up in the chamber (carbon marks on base of shoulder).

Like I said, I just followed instructions from the Redding die set saying to screw all the way down until the die barely touches the shellholder and back off 1 revolution to take off crimp.

The cannelure is pretty much dead center in the neck. Yes these and roughly 600 other cases I saved up are fired from this AR.

 

[bricktop]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dlxcupid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, I just followed instructions from the Redding die set saying to screw all the way down until the die barely touches the shellholder and back off 1 revolution to take off crimp.</div></div>

Are you doing that with the sizing die or the seater die?

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dlxcupid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, I just followed instructions from the Redding die set saying to screw all the way down until the die barely touches the shellholder and back off 1 revolution to take off crimp.</div></div>

Are you doing that with the sizing die or the seater die?</div></div>

That's with the seating die.

With the FL sizing die, Redding says to move ram all the way up and screw sizing die down until it touches the shellholder firmly.

 

[bricktop]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dlxcupid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dlxcupid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, I just followed instructions from the Redding die set saying to screw all the way down until the die barely touches the shellholder and back off 1 revolution to take off crimp.</div></div>

Are you doing that with the sizing die or the seater die?</div></div>

That's with the seating die.

With the FL sizing die, Redding says to move ram all the way up and screw sizing die down until it touches the shellholder firmly. </div></div>

Does the sized shell go in all the way (giggity)? Make sure there is no gap in between the shellholder and the bottom of the die, otherwise the shoulder is not getting bumped back like it should. Even when it touches when screwing in the size, when the forces involved with sizing a case are applied, things may move a bit.

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Hmmm...never thought about measuring the base. Mine all measured out to 0.373 at the base. XM193 measures at 0.370. I will check for carbon ring at the chamber. I did shoot 500rds without cleaning. I normally don't clean until after 1k. XM193 feeds fine right now.

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Does the sized shell go in all the way (giggity)? Make sure there is no gap in between the shellholder and the bottom of the die, otherwise the shoulder is not getting bumped back like it should. Even when it touches when screwing in the size, when the forces involved with sizing a case are applied, things may move a bit.</div></div>

Yes it does go all the way in and there is no gap between the shellholder and die when the ram is all the way up.

 

[bricktop]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Hmm, well I would at least suggest getting one of these (liek bigwheeler mentioned) to help diagnose the problem, and any future problems you might have:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-223-remington

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Screw the die down until it cams your press over a bit and size a case that won't
chamber. See if that cures it. You are not bumping the shoulders from the looks
of things.
For your seater... back it off until there is no crimp. Seat a bullet. Back the seater
stem off. Now With the ram up screw the die down until it touches. Then a 1/32
of a turn at a time screw it down until you have the crimp you desire.. Lock it down
and reset your seater stem to seat your desired depth.
Let me add, when you get all straightened out still get a case gauge or you always run the risk of one not sizing down do to being too large and too hard
so it'll spring back. Stuck cases are not tolerable to most shooters.

 

[WldWldWest]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

What case lube are you using and are you wiping down your brass good after sizing?

You say small base dies like its a bad thing? I use SB dies for all of my gas guns... I doubt most can tell a difference in how it shoots.

Btw, Cool lil reloading area.

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

bigwheeler - I'll try that tomorrow. I've about had it with the reloading bench tonight. I'm gonna call it quits before it gets to my head. I will also pick up a case gage after work tomorrow.

DougW - Not saying a small base die is a bad thing. I knew the existance of small base dies but didn't think I'd need it. Just that now I have to go and buy one. It's the whole waiting process that's a pain in the butt. I haven't heard too many people say that they need a small base die so I assumed I didn't need it. Of course things never work out that way you want when you assume.

I'm using Hornady OneShot and RCBS case lube. I used Hornady oneshot for this batch. I did wipe off the case lube as soon as I'm done with brass prep.

 

[WldWldWest]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dlxcupid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bigwheeler - I'll try that tomorrow. I've about had it with the reloading bench tonight. I'm gonna call it quits before it gets to my head. I will also pick up a case gage after work tomorrow.

DougW - Not saying a small base die is a bad thing. I knew the existance of small base dies but didn't think I'd need it. Just that now I have to go and buy one. It's the whole waiting process that's a pain in the butt. I haven't heard too many people say that they need a small base die so I assumed I didn't need it. Of course things never work out that way you want when you assume.

I'm using Hornady OneShot and RCBS case lube. I used Hornady oneshot for this batch. I did wipe off the case lube as soon as I'm done with brass prep. </div></div>

I personally like useing Hornady One Shot but I have seen my son crush many cases from using too much lube, Its critical to wipe the shoulder down really well or it causes problems.

After I got really tired of slamming the butt of some really expensive AR's on the bench to try to remove a stuck case I decided to go with SB dies and that all but elimanated my problems, didnt happen often but when it did it wasnt pretty

 

[mnhntr]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

I also recommend you get a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I use it on anything I plan to run through an auto pistol or rifle. It re-sizes to ensure it fits.

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stranded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">first off, Nice set up. next pictures of problem rounds needed. I'm leaning toward your seating die screwed in waaay to far. If I try to crimp,I put the empty trimmed case in ram. No die inplace then extend ram then screw in seating die until I can just feel it touch case mouth. Next make sure cannelure of bullet is centered in case mouth using seating stem not hole die. If this does not apply to you see second sentence. </div></div>

This is the culprit, your crimping method. I have seen it on a few set ups, same problem, same set up. The crimp doesen have to be a death grip, and it really doesent have to be there at all. It's something that when I DO use a roll crimp, its all careful and by feel. 95% of the time I want a crimp, which is rare, I use the Lee Factory Crimp, and never crush a shoulder. Reloading 223 does not take alot of force, and crimping in the roll crimper takes even less. I can see in your pictures the crimp is pretty stout, and once that case mouth edge rolls into that cannelure, its not going any further, and more pressure on the handle to make it go "all the way" down and the ram all the way up, will crush the shoulder. Back that die out like he said until it just does it, and seat and crimp by FEEL. if your new at this, the instinct is to use alot of force, and the ram has to touch the die, no matter what because the directions said so. The directions work for a perfectly trimmed to a perfect length case, sorta, sometimes. So go with feel, not force or stop crimping, or get the Lee FCD. I reload about 6-8000 rds of 223 a year, and do not crimp any of it.

 

[DBohn]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Get either a Hornady or Sinclair bump gage. Personally I like the Sinclair ones better. Take a case that won't chamber and measure the shoulder then run it through your full length sizer and see how much you're bumping it back. With no way to measure what you're doing it can be very frustrating. Bumping only the amount required will extend your brass life as well.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479704/...with-comparator

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35265/Product/Sinclair-Bump-Gage-Insert

Unless you buy the Sinclair kit you need to buy the body for the insert to go in as well.

 

[groovinpickle]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

I had a LaRue Stealth when I first started loading, and I remember having problems because I wasn't bumping the shoulder back far enough The headspace dimension is pretty close to minimum, I believe, and the old "crank down the die until it touches then back off 1/4 turn" wouldn't bump the shoulder at all. I eventually figured it out without spilling any blood.

Also, if you're not evenly lubricating cases, and particularly if you're using an expander button in your die without lubricating the inside of the necks, you might be stretching the cases back out on the up stroke of your press.

I really, really like the RCBS Precision Mic for measuring this critical dimension, and adjusting my sizing die accordingly. The Wilson gage (which I also have) is a good go/no-go, but I prefer the RCBS tool for its precision.

edit: that Sinclair bump gauge would be another good option

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Thanks for all the info and help so far guys. All the rounds that I loaded (about 20) chambered perfectly fine in my buddy's custom AR15. That relieves me, seems like I'm doing something right. I did go back and play with the seating die some more like 2ndPanzer had suggested. I went with feel instead. I seated about 5 rounds (case and projectile only) as a test run and it seems like it's working.

I also went and bought a Dillon case gage, all the brass I resized fit in the gage perfectly smooth, base sits in between the high and low point. None stick out the top.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

cupid,
I read the majority of the posts here. Good info getting your sizing die set right.
On crimping, the Redding standard seater has a roll crimp built into it, to roll the brass into a bullet with a cannelure. The crimp has a sharp lip to do this.
For AR guns you need a taper crimp die, if you are loading bulets without a cannelure.
Also in order to crimp, all your brass needs to be trimmed to the exact same length.
On a longer case, the crimping process starts before the bullet is seated all the way, and you crush the case, like your picture shows.
On a shorter case you won't get a crimp because it's not long enough. The ones in the middle will be fine.
Crimping brass that is not uniformly trimmed is a PITA to say the least. I've all but given up on it.
Hope this helps.

Another thing I like for AR loading is RCBS's X-die, it doesn't get alot of mention but is a viable product if set up right.

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

Fellas I might have figured it out. I stopped by Grafs yesterday and picked up a RCBS small base die along with the case gage. I finally got it setup tonight and loaded 10 dummy rounds. All chambered perfectly fine. I pulled the BCG slow and fast, no snags, no problems. I did play with the seater die and backed off on the crimp a bit as well, no more collapsed shoulders with a very slight crimp. All are fitting in the case gage perfectly fine as well. Small base die was .002 smaller at the base compared to the Redding FL die. I believe I can sleep better now.

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm sure I'll have more frustrating posts in the future. Happy Holidays everyone!

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: FNG having problems loading for AR15

I don't always crimp my ammo, but when I do, I choose the Lee FCD... Keep loading my friend..


Couldn't help it. Glad you got it all worked out.