Focus on crosshairs or Target?

[10xk9]

My background is NRA bullseye pistol. I’m a High Master, Distinguished, multi time presidents hundred shooter, etc. So I understand the fundamentals of marksmanship.
As a pistol shooter , watching your sights and not your target is the only way! Now with red dot sights on a pistol there seems to be a difference of opinion as far as which is better, watching the dot, or watching the target.
My question is for the best rifle shooters in here who are using high magnifying glass.....do you focus on the crosshairs , or on the target as the trigger breaks?

 

[SLG]

I wouldn't claim anything about being the best rifle shooter here, but the big difference is the parallax. In a scope, the crosshair and the target will appear to be on the same plane, where with iron sights that isn't possible. Theoretically, you should not be able to focus on the crosshairs and not the target, or vice versa. The red dot pistol issue is a little different.

 

[10xk9]

I wouldn't claim anything about being the best rifle shooter here, but the big difference is the parallax. In a scope, the crosshair and the target will appear to be on the same plane, where with iron sights that isn't possible. Theoretically, you should not be able to focus on the crosshairs and not the target, or vice versa. The red dot pistol issue is a little different.

I know what you’re saying and theoretically, I agree with you. Maybe it’s just in my head as a result of forcing myself to focus on the sights for the past 25 years as a pistol shooter. When I shoot dot drills I tend to notice fewer flyers when I’m really focusing on the crosshairs. Again , it may very well be a mental thing. I was just curious to get the opinions and experiences of rifle shooters. Thank you for your response , SLG!

 

[SLG]

Well, I know what you mean. I mentioned the theory, because many shooters prefer to focus on the crosshairs, rather than the target. I'm not sure I get a noticeable difference either way, but I wouldn't claim any benchrest group ability. I'm talking about 100 yard paper.

At distance on steel or flesh, I focus on the crosshairs.

 

[Precision Underground]

My breakthrough happened when I stopped trying to focus on either one. I shoot my best when I am not focused on anything except watching the bullet hit the target. And it's not a hyper-focus. You are seeing that the reticle is on the target but you are not focusing on it. It's like a watching TV focus. If your subconscious knows the goal is to watch the bullet hit the target and you allow it to make that happen all areas are covered. Hold, trigger pull, recoil management, etc... Obviously you need some decent technique to start with but that is just learning positions and practice. The hard part is as soon as you start thinking your subconscious goes out the window and you are "trying" again. It sounds cliche, but it is true "Don't try, do." I found this out when I noticed the difference in by shooting between shooting groups at 400 yards and shooting golf balls at 400 yards. I would nail golf balls most of the time but groups at 400 were three times the size of golf balls. I realized that when shooting groups I was trying too hard to hold on the target and squeeze the trigger and be perfect. The goal was to hold and squeeze. When shooting golf balls I was simply getting set up correctly and shooting the golf ball. So the goal was not to hold on the ball and squeeze the trigger. The goal was to hit the golf ball and see it happen. The latter works much, much better.

 

[Devildog]

I attended a class at Badlands Tactical for 5 days and the instructors drilled it in our heads to concentrate on the cross hairs not the target. Of course the class was a little more Tactical in nature rather then benchrest shooting. Ultimately the round should hit were the cross hairs are when you pull the trigger, so I concentrate on the crosshair!

 

[...]

You should be able to focus on both.

however.....i focus on the target.........i stare at exactly what i want to hit, and i find my body aligns naturally.


try drawing a 2 straight lines between a pair of dots......one the first one, stare at the pen as you are drawing, on the second one, stare at the finish dot.

the first line you draw will be curved.......the second line you draw(the one where you stared at the finish dot) will be pretty damn straight.

 

[SubOptimal]

You can really only focus on both if the parallax on your scope is set correctly. If you do not have adjustable parallax, you will only have the ability to see both but sharp focus must be on one or the other. I pretty much only shoot on square ranges these days and have all friggin day to get and maintain a sight picture. At shortish ranges my parallax setting is not that critical to me as I tend to work edges of my targets rather than the center. I don't need a perfect edge to zero on a 1MOA dot at any particular range and if I can hold the bottom edge of the dot, I will be automatically centered windage wise and have only elevation to concern myself with. Again, at a 100, with up to pretty strong winds, the bullet just isn't moving very far. Now further out, I might have to hold further off target but then there is no real need to see the perfect edge anymore either. Long years of shooting with nothing but iron sights have me automatically focusing on the front sight post or, with a scope, the crosshairs.

 

[Milo 2.5]

If you're not cognitive of where the crosshair is on a target, I'm not sure how you can hit what you're aiming at. In heavy mirage trying to focus on the target just plain hurts the eyeball. Scope quality has to play hard in this scenario too, better glass with good parallax adj should rule.
If I'm shooting groups at distance instead of plate, it's a 50-50 split, you need both in focus.

 

[Milo 2.5]

My breakthrough happened when I stopped trying to focus on either one. I shoot my best when I am not focused on anything except watching the bullet hit the target. And it's not a hyper-focus. You are seeing that the reticle is on the target but you are not focusing on it. It's like a watching TV focus. If your subconscious knows the goal is to watch the bullet hit the target and you allow it to make that happen all areas are covered. Hold, trigger pull, recoil management, etc... Obviously you need some decent technique to start with but that is just learning positions and practice. The hard part is as soon as you start thinking your subconscious goes out the window and you are "trying" again. It sounds cliche, but it is true "Don't try, do." I found this out when I noticed the difference in by shooting between shooting groups at 400 yards and shooting golf balls at 400 yards. I would nail golf balls most of the time but groups at 400 were three times the size of golf balls. I realized that when shooting groups I was trying too hard to hold on the target and squeeze the trigger and be perfect. The goal was to hold and squeeze. When shooting golf balls I was simply getting set up correctly and shooting the golf ball. So the goal was not to hold on the ball and squeeze the trigger. The goal was to hit the golf ball and see it happen. The latter works much, much better.

Haha, you are normal.
I have a friend I shoot with, he wears my right eye out spotting for him, every friggin detail needs to be perfect break a shot. If the rifle is solid, the sight picture is there, squeeze the trigger.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

YMMV:

- I shoot best when I find a very specific POA on the target through the optic, and bring the cross hair to the POA. I shift focus from that POA to the crosshair, shift back to POA on target, then shift again to the crosshair, maintain focus on crosshair on POA until after trigger press, recoil, shot is called.

- I shoot fastest when I find a very specific POA on the target, bring the crosshair to the center of my vision (which is POA), intuit that the crosshair has landed on POA, press, recoil, call.

I think most would be surprised by their level of accuracy shooting a dot drill as fast as you can using the second method.

Both of my eyes are always open.

 

[Hundo]

My background is NRA bullseye pistol. I’m a High Master, Distinguished, multi time presidents hundred shooter, etc. So I understand the fundamentals of marksmanship.
As a pistol shooter , watching your sights and not your target is the only way! Now with red dot sights on a pistol there seems to be a difference of opinion as far as which is better, watching the dot, or watching the target.
My question is for the best rifle shooters in here who are using high magnifying glass.....do you focus on the crosshairs , or on the target as the trigger breaks?

I am a relatively successful sporting clays competitor. Therefore, I stare at the target and slap the trigger at the appropriate moment. I became a better rifle shot after reading Cleckner's book and began focusing on the crosshairs and squeezing the trigger with follow through. That is the Cleckner method for what it is worth.

 

[SubOptimal]

I am a relatively successful sporting clays competitor. Therefore, I stare at the target and slap the trigger at the appropriate moment. I became a better rifle shot after reading Cleckner's book and began focusing on the crosshairs and squeezing the trigger with follow through. That is the Cleckner method for what it is worth.

Very different animals, shotgun shooting and rifle shooting. Myself, I was AA, 27, AA as a trap shooter, would be pissed at myself for missing a single target out of 100 at 16 yards. You decide before hand how you wish to approach a target with a shotgun, swing through or sustained lead, actually the trigger pull is very much the same, a smooth squeeze timed to match your lead. I actually used release triggers on my guns as it was less upsetting to the the gun than squeezing a trigger. A little disturbing with a conventional shotgun and really strange with a Lujtic Space Gun which is a bolt action with the ejection port at the bottom of the gun.
Rifle is way different in that you really don't look at the target, you concentrate on the overall sight picture and control your trigger squeeze when the picture is right. Focus is really not an issue, that is what the parallax adjustment is for on the scope, it puts the target and the reticle crosshairs at the same focal plane so it really doesn't matter what you look at. It is really the picture that counts,
It is almost the same when dealing with a crossing bird, or even a rabbit, you squeeze the trigger when the picture is right. The huge difference is the time available to complete the shot, that and rifle shooters rarely have to deal with 50 mph crossing shots. Leave that stuff to the Warthogs.

 

[FishDr]

What do you guys do with open center reticles? I guess my focus is on “both”. But the open center disappears when I’m shooting a small group.

 

[SubOptimal]

What do you guys do with open center reticles? I guess my focus is on “both”. But the open center disappears when I’m shooting a small group.

As I stated earlier, it is the picture that counts, your brain will want to center on whatever you are concentrating on. You should not be looking at the group anyway, you should be looking at your point of aim. If you have a scope with correct parallax adjustment, your brain will see your target and crosshairs at the same time and if the open center is your focus, you are focusing on nothing. Let your brain do the work for you.
Of course, if you are shooting POA=POI, you might have shot out your aiming point but you can still obtain an aiming point relative to previous impacts. Many duplex reticles have thicker posts on the outer perimeter that tend to lead the eye to the center anyway even though you can no longer see the fine portion of the crosshairs at whatever magnification you have selected.

 

[shoobe01]

I worry about terminology here. RDS and magnified scopes should both have the graticule (a reticle is a rangefinding graticule) in the same focal plane. If focusing on the dot or crosshairs (regardless of actual shape) makes the target at all blurry, or vice versa, then something isn't set up right.

RDSs are supposed to be all set up properly from the factory, so no adjustments, but your individual eyes may vary. I can no longer use Aimpoint, as I just see a starburst. If you can't use an RDS well, try another brand.

Magnified optics have to be focused to your eye (occular focus or diopter adjustment), and may have to be adjusted to focus at the target distance with a parallax adjustment. If you find the target, the graticule, or both to be even slightly out of focus then you need to change adjustments and fix it. Note, your eye will try to compensate so if you ever find them out of focus then you need to fix it; if tired, dehydrated, or after a long time looking through the scope it's hard to stay in focus, that means your adjustments are a bit off, and your eye is getting strained from trying to compensate.


Okay, once set up, then the activity your eye/brain is doing is rather different that focus anyway. Instead you should just be aligning the graticule with the intended aiming point.

There should not be a need to shift between one or the other. People do very well aligning objects, and do so dynamically, with not only no slowdown from shifting attention, but actual increased speed from having aligning items; think about people who read by tracing a finger, pencil, or ruler to a printed piece of paper.

Centering alignment we do very, very well indeed. For the question about doughnut graticules, you can indeed treat it very much like using a diopter/peep/ghostring sight: your eye will automatically center the aiming point in the ring, so just look through it and fire.

 

[FishDr]

Thanks for the reply SubOptimal. That certainly makes sense. I suppose my question may have been worded poorly. What I actually do (when shooting for a group or confirming zero) is index on at a very small aim point. Either a very very small dot or the corner of a diamond. Some point generally smaller than the open center of the reticle. In this case, when parallax is correct, I don’t notice a one-or-other choice of reticle vs. target, they both seem to just “be there”. This is true of my high quality scope, but has NOT been true of lower quality optics.

When shooting for a group, I will dial off one way or another so as to preserve the aim point.
Thanks again.

 

[SubOptimal]

[QUOTE="FishDr, post: 7155157, member: 102501
When shooting for a group, I will dial off one way or another so as to preserve the aim point.
Thanks again.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly what I do. I actually prefer a 9 O'clock hold on a circular or diamond shaped target, when shooting at a square (I don't always get to select my target) I go back to a 6 O'clock hold. Same for animals or silhouette targets, junction of leg and body. The point is to have an easily identified aim point. Now, wind is another matter altogether and I'm not even gonna go there.

 

[TheGerman]

its like shooting a handgun; you are looking at both, yet focused more on the front sight.

 

[steelheadr99]

"Focus on the reticle, steady pressure on the trigger" from Ryan Cleeckner's book Long Range Shooting Handbook.

 

[Unknown]

Crosshairs for final adjustment, and to insure that my scope isn't canted right or left, and that I have a full circle of light in the scope. If I look at the target, it is easier to miss a wee bit of cant, or miss that there is a tiny bit of shadow in the corner of the scope that will throw off the shot.

 

[The Bloke]

Aim, aim, aim.

Reticle, reticle, reticle.

 

[Precision Underground]

Maybe it’s just me but I say hyperfocus on the reticle is a bad thing. I’ve focused on reticle, on target, on other things and I never shot well until my focus shifted outward to the task. My subconscious monitors the relationship between the target and the reticle and my focus is on the task of hitting the target with the bullet. Trigger pull is quick, smooth, and deliberate and there is zero reaction to the noise or recoil while staying focused on hitting the target and seeing it happen.

 

[Diver160651]

^ You would be assume on the clay range, quick sqeeze and all.

For what it’s worth, not all the time does one have time to work out parallax issues or as mentioned, heavy mirage messes up all plans. Shading the scope of course helps in these situations, but one has to maintain focus of the reticle as the shot is broken.

We can get away with a lot and still shoot well, but that does not me it is the best technique

 

[Precision Underground]

^ You would be assume on the clay range, quick squares and all.

For what it’s worth, not all the time does one have time to work out parallax issues or as mentioned, heavy mirage messes up all plans. Shading the scope of course helps in these situations, but one has to maintain focus of the reticle as the shot is broken.

You can say “one has to focus on the reticle” but I don’t. I shoot terribly when I focus on the reticle. I’m talking mental focus. I know that I see the reticle and it’s relationship to the target but I’m not focused on it per se. When I hear “focus on the reticle” to me that means purposely looking at it and actively thinking about where it is and how to move it to get on and stay on target. Holding a reticle on a target is an incredibly easy task when your subconscious is allowed to do it. Try driving down the road and then focus and think about trying to stay directly in the center of the lane. It becomes a lot harder than if you just focus on where you want to go and let your subconscious handle the small stuff. I’ve shot in very heavy mirage and it makes no difference there is just less magnification to use. I believe 100% that you shoot very well focusing on the reticle but I am living proof that it’s not the only way. Or maybe I interpret “focus on the reticle” wrong. I know I wasted a lot of time and ammo trying to do it “right”.

 

[kthomas001]

"Focus on the reticle, steady pressure on the trigger" from Ryan Cleeckner's book Long Range Shooting Handbook.

I'm with Steelheadr99, focus on the reticle, squeeze the bloody trigger. Geez it's not that hard.

 

[PAYDIRT]

I would consider shotguns and rifles the same as apples and oranges, but I do know after I shot 6-8 rounds of trap a week for quite awhile I became a better rifle shot. Doesn't make sense because I don't even see my shotgun sight and with rifles I focus on the retical???

 

[Texas T]

"Focus on the reticle, steady pressure on the trigger" from Ryan Cleeckner's book Long Range Shooting Handbook.

I wish Ryan Cleckner had explained the thinking behind this. I did this for a long time until I decided I don’t think it’s right for a rifle scope with good parallax for the reasons already stated in this thread. Compare how many retinal cells are stimulated by the tiny point of aim versus the huge reticle stadia. peripheral vision picks up plenty of crosshair information, my vote is to focus on the tiny point of aim not the reticle. Gives the brain more to work with.

 

[n2ishun]

I focus on breathing much more than I focus on target or crosshairs.
If you can perfect breathing everything else just sorta falls into place.

 

[RUTGERS95]

look through to target, both align and captures all

 

[Texas T]

You can say “one has to focus on the reticle” but I don’t. I shoot terribly when I focus on the reticle. I’m talking mental focus. I know that I see the reticle and it’s relationship to the target but I’m not focused on it per se. When I hear “focus on the reticle” to me that means purposely looking at it and actively thinking about where it is and how to move it to get on and stay on target. Holding a reticle on a target is an incredibly easy task when your subconscious is allowed to do it. Try driving down the road and then focus and think about trying to stay directly in the center of the lane. It becomes a lot harder than if you just focus on where you want to go and let your subconscious handle the small stuff. I’ve shot in very heavy mirage and it makes no difference there is just less magnification to use. I believe 100% that you shoot very well focusing on the reticle but I am living proof that it’s not the only way. Or maybe I interpret “focus on the reticle” wrong. I know I wasted a lot of time and ammo trying to do it “right”.

I focus on breathing much more than I focus on target or crosshairs.
If you can perfect breathing everything else just sorta falls into place.

I'm just starting to take breathing seriously. Its not easy to time at first. Its taking too long. A nationally ranked archer told me to use my breath to force a commitment to take the shot, meaning I'm going to shoot on the exhale regardless of what my sight picture is telling me. Seems to be working in dryfire but haven't shot live rounds that way yet.

 

[Baron23]

COACH THE FUNDAMENTALS OF RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP
CMC-2002
0933-MARK-2002
COMBAT MARKSMANSHIP COACHES COURSE
M06M855
REVISED 1 February 2015​

(2) Relationship Between the Eye and the RCO. The human eye can focus clearly on only one object at a time. For accurate shooting, it is important to focus on the aim point in the reticle of the BDC throughout the aiming process.​

​

(a) The shooter’s primary focus should be on the aim point of the reticle while maintaining a full field of view.​

​

(b) An inexperienced shooter may have difficulty accepting that the final focus must be on the reticle with the target appearing indistinct.​

 

[n2ishun]

They way they taught us in the jarheads was to take a breath, let out half, hold and then squeeze slow.
I have yet to find fault with it....although sometimes I exhale slightly when letting the shot off.

 

[308pirate]

As a pistol shooter , watching your sights and not your target is the only way! Now with red dot sights on a pistol there seems to be a difference of opinion as far as which is better, watching the dot, or watching the target.

I know this isn't what you asked but I'm going to clear up your mistakes above.

If you're talking about bullseye shooting with iron sights, you're correct about focus. When dealing with practical shooting, front sight focus is not always the correct answer.

When using reflex sights, focusing on the dot might work if you have all the time in the world, but in practical shooting dot focus is never the right answer.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

I read Cleckner’s book and if there’s one thing I remember, it’s FRST.


FOCUS on the

RETICLE

SQUEEZE the

TRIGGER

It’s worked for me.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

They way they taught us in the jarheads was to take a breath, let out half, hold and then squeeze slow.
I have yet to find fault with it....although sometimes I exhale slightly when letting the shot off.

That hasn’t been taught in years...... because lots of fault. It’s not consistent and induces more wobble in the crosshairs than full exhale.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I'm just starting to take breathing seriously. Its not easy to time at first. Its taking too long. A nationally ranked archer told me to use my breath to force a commitment to take the shot, meaning I'm going to shoot on the exhale regardless of what my sight picture is telling me. Seems to be working in dryfire but haven't shot live rounds that way yet.

Don’t do this. If sight picture is bad, fix it and wait for the next exhale.

 

[smoothy8500]

Three years later we're still debating this......With janky advice of course; exhale forces you to shoot (Oh yeah, you'll pass out), ignore the crosshairs, see though the target, Luke use the force, yada, yada, yada,

 

[Precision Underground]

I know this is a necromance of your post, but this thread got zombied couple days ago. Do you still subscribe to the subconscious shooting technique?

I wouldn’t call it a technique but yes this is still my mindset. To update it with possibly a better explanation I’d say what I’m describing is being mindful and intentional; being task-focused and observing the whole process rather than being focused on holding the reticle or squeezing the trigger.

Yes you need to learn good positioning and good mechanics but I think people get stuck in that mode. At some point you have to wield the tool. Anyone who is skillful with a tool, whether it’s a hammer, a guitar, or a race car….attaches the tool to their body and the tool becomes an extension of themself. Their movements and interaction with the tool sync up and the person and the tool become more than the sum of their parts.

Too many shooters don’t get this and are mounting up on top of the rifle and trying to pin it in place to get on target. They view the rifle as a machine that they need to hold in the exact right position to hit the target. This is where you get people struggling to get the reticle aligned and/or struggling to squeeze the trigger without disturbing the sight picture. Guys may get good at it and shoot good groups but will never control recoil this way and they may struggle to shoot well consistently across different days/rifles/surfaces. This is riding the rifle instead of driving the rifle.

 

[smoothy8500]

Wow, great explanation. Thank you!

I think what @Precision Underground is describing is the separation of consciously focusing on the front sight and the trigger pull. This is where dry fire practice is key, especially so with off hand position in Highpower. You focus on the front sight (now reticle in scopes) and have to accept the inherent "wobble zone" that occurs.

Just like the guy that wields a hammer for a living without any thought, eventually the subconscious controls the trigger pull as the eye sees everything is aligned.

 

[gigamortis]

For me, if parallax is set right, reticle focus is target focus. To enhance your commitment of follow-through after breaking the shot, tell your mind that you need to see the hit through the scope as it happens.