For those who use levels as an aid…
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I did try one of those and got different readings when flipping it 180. They cared so much about it that it was bouncing loose in the package when it got here. Maybe I got a bad one
Or a counterfeit one, Amazon is rife with fake products.
I agree and don’t order from amazon often. The two I ordered were from zoro.com (authorized dealer) and they were both loose jumping around in the package. They are an online based company and it took an hour or so on the phone trying to get an RMA. Walmart sent my kids goldfish with more packing then they did…
If you aren't looking 0.0000 deg accuracy, apps for smartphones do a pretty good job of getting there in the field.
Starrett, and these from lowes:https://www.lowes.com/pd/Swanson-Tool-Company-4-in-Line-Surface-Level/1006347
I don’t get why it matters. Your barrel is cylindrical. It doesn’t matter if the gun is level as long as the reticle is level to gravity.
As for platforms, that’s ambiguous. I used a cheap torpedo level and speed square to get the angle to dangle, all the way to a 6 ft level for footings.
As for platforms, that’s ambiguous. I used a cheap torpedo level and speed square to get the angle to dangle, all the way to a 6 ft level for footings.
Chuckle, I don't use it for scope levelling, but I suppose if it became critical, a Starrett 98-12, which is good to .005 (5 thousandths of an inch per foot of run). I use it to level lathes and mills. A lot of these old levels can be found on eBay, and by their age, very unlikely to be a fake. But, they are big. My model is a foot long (which is the "-12" in the name), they do have some models which are a more modest 6 inches long. Perfect for letting you know when you are ten atoms out of level 
You could get one of these, to act as a "standard" to calibrate all your other levels.
You could get one of these, to act as a "standard" to calibrate all your other levels.
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Just curious as to how close your smart phone app gets you to 0 degree compared to the bubble? Looks like the 1 degree is in close agreement to the bubble.
Usually the standard is a left and right lateral limit expressed in minutes as they are finer than degrees. A 20ish-30ish minute of accuracy in the staretts is something close to .05 degrees if I’m doing my math right. With this said a phone using degrees is a larger unit of measurement and therefore not as accurate.
That's an old photo.....and old iphone 8/9 maybe? Just messing around at the time because I believe the "level" was a contemporaneous "new app". I should check with my 11 Pro.
You only need 1 level on the Gun.
Hang a weighted string the distance, level up your gun, get behind the gun and align the vertical cross hair up with the weighted string. Torque it and you’re done. Guns level and scope is level
In relation to your gun.
Hang a weighted string the distance, level up your gun, get behind the gun and align the vertical cross hair up with the weighted string. Torque it and you’re done. Guns level and scope is level
In relation to your gun.
Some of those apps are accurate to 0.1 degree for smart phone. Guess it would depend on your application and a bubble level, no matter what manufacturer, would be dependent on your eye's judgement. Not too much in this hobby, for most, that a high level of down to the minutes and seconds of a degree is required.
I will caution that you have to be careful with apps, especially the free ones. Some have been reported to gather data off your system and turn on your camera........that could be embarrassing or worse to say the least. Never a lack of those that want to be big bro.
I will add that some phone cases have irregular surfaces to improve Grip. This can introduce error. Some cases are not uniform thickness, which has the possibility to introduce error. There may be a way to calibrate the last error out of it.
Both plumb (vertical) and level (horizontal) are use in firearms.Plumb is the key word here, NOT level.
Just saying
It is, and I hear everyone else who has echoed the same. If the scope is plumb to gravity it still needs to return to that axis when the rifle is mounted in your shooting position. Because I attempt to hold the rifle plumb I level a base in which I mount the scope rings to and then adjust the reticle to a plumb bob. It’s not perfect, but its probably better than my ability to calculate what level of cant I’m introducing to the rifle and doing the math… which we‘ve already seen is not my strengthPlumb is the key word here, NOT level.
Just saying
I use the Badger Ordnance Dead Level.
I mount the rings to the pic rail shown and use the level integrated to the mount.
I drop a plumb bob.
Insert the scope and adjust so the plumb bob is in view of the optic.
Level the Badger Ordnance Dead Level.
Rotate the reticle to be plumb.
Tighten slowly in crossing or recommended pattern to torque, constantly rechecking to ensure I haven’t rotated the optic.
Shoot.
Drink beer.
Have fun.
***The extra levels shown was me with my OCD checking the integrated level.
I mount the rings to the pic rail shown and use the level integrated to the mount.
I drop a plumb bob.
Insert the scope and adjust so the plumb bob is in view of the optic.
Level the Badger Ordnance Dead Level.
Rotate the reticle to be plumb.
Tighten slowly in crossing or recommended pattern to torque, constantly rechecking to ensure I haven’t rotated the optic.
Shoot.
Drink beer.
Have fun.
***The extra levels shown was me with my OCD checking the integrated level.
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Not to step on anyone's thread, but I have to ask: in the real world does any of these 'leveling aids' really help other than just the one mounted to the rifle scope? Who's natural positioning of the rifle doesn't induce 'rifle cant'?
If you are not able to adjust your stock to correct misalignment in 'plumb' then why not just mount your rifle in your 'natural' hold and true your scope to a 'plumb' line? The scope level is a check that tells you if you are repeating your natural hold. NO?
If you are not able to adjust your stock to correct misalignment in 'plumb' then why not just mount your rifle in your 'natural' hold and true your scope to a 'plumb' line? The scope level is a check that tells you if you are repeating your natural hold. NO?
If you mean to “level” the scope to accommodate for whatever cant your natural position induces on the rifle. , then I would say no. I wouldn’t. I’m the “real world” you’re not always gonna be shooting from the prone, on a flat range. There might be slight variations in each your positions depending on your environment, etc.
IMO. you level the rifle and then level the scope to the rifle. . Once you get in your position, you check level and adjust as needed. Easy peezy
Why has no body from the space force chimed in yet with more information on gravity… those guys are slacking
If I could like this 1000x I would. Make a plumb line at distance. Hold gun the way you will shoot it. Make vertical crosshair follow line. Make level centered in vile. Check that scope tracks vertically up line when bubble is converted in vile with crosshair plumb/level. Done. The gun does NOT need to be level. Trying to hold the gun level vs naturally is likely to create more repeatability issues that having it slightly out of level. There are tons of articles with the match. If you have levels that fit in the action, onthe barrel, or on the turret cap throw the fuckers away. They are worthless unless you have a chassis that is infinitely adjustable for buttpad angle. Even then they are not necessary. The products for "level gun + level scope" are gd gimmicks. Make the vertical crosshair and turret adjustment plumb to gravity and send it. Don't waste your money on bullshit.
send it is really nice but pricey I use just a cheap vortex bubble level easily enough to see level and only 29.99
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Amazon.com : Vortex Optics Riflescope Bubble Level 30-mm : Sporting Optic Rings : Sports & Outdoors
Amazon.com : Vortex Optics Riflescope Bubble Level 30-mm : Sporting Optic Rings : Sports & Outdoors
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i just used this knock off set
a bubble level is a bubble level. The trick is being able to calibrate them to make perfect. I'm pretty OCD so i took quite some time adjusting them to be 100% exact using a micrometer to measure the bubble distance from the lines. Overkill i'm sure but this set was able to get me 100% dead level without spending big money for low tech simplicity
a bubble level is a bubble level. The trick is being able to calibrate them to make perfect. I'm pretty OCD so i took quite some time adjusting them to be 100% exact using a micrometer to measure the bubble distance from the lines. Overkill i'm sure but this set was able to get me 100% dead level without spending big money for low tech simplicity
I put one of these on my gun. Bit expensive and frankly I don't use it much, but I like having it and it folds flat and out of the way. What I liked about this one is that; 1) is not another thing hanging off of the scope and getting in the way and; 2) it has an adjustment screw to allow you to actually level your level (haha) as just putting it on a pic rail guarantees nothing, IME.
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All of that said, i just got my optic dead level with the rifle also dead level in reference to the bore vs cross hair. I did however check to be sure the level on the upper turret and the reticle true level are 100% matched, on this optic they are.
Mounting the optic in a canted fashion on a rifle, then canting the rifle to make the reticle level IS going to cause some shooting error.
Mount any laser site to any rifle scope. Adjust both to match zero at 100 yards. Now if that level is not exactly at the 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock position, ignoring elevation errors, you will see windage errors at different ranges. That exact effect will happen if the bore is not exactly under the centerline of the optic and BOTH need to be level in reference to one another to achieve this
i started a thread about this exact topic here https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/optic-reticle-and-rifle-leveling.7091421/
if i'm wrong someone please try and explain it there. Yes bullets fly in a arch, but without wind or other odd issues, they do not curve. So that is my theory on the importance of having the optic mounted correctly, not just thrown on however "feels" correct.
You are NOT wrong. The magnitude of the error is so small it is foolish to worry about unless you are zeroing at 10 yards and shooting at artillery distances. The error caused by poor npa from an uncomfortable rifle fit will be larger than the error caused by what you are describing in most use cases for tactical rifles.
Also, a lot of use cases require speed where looking at a level is added time. Having the reticle out of level causes a much larger error. It has a much higher likelihood of being significant. If you naturally mount the rifle with the scope level you are accepting a small error to get rid of a large error. If you unnaturally mount the rifle in order to make the reticle level and the rifle level (actually plumb), you are accepting the likelihood of a large error under stress in order to eliminate a very small, insignificant error which occurs when the reticle is plumb but not directly plumb over the centerline of the bore when shooting the rifle.
It is like focusing on spindrift for a 600 yard shot in a 15 mph wind....it's well within the noise.
The science and art of long range shooting goes pretty deep. The longer you do it and the more rounds you put down range, the more you realize the human is the problem. An accurate rifle with a functional scope is an amazing instrument. A guy that only focuses on gravity and wind drift, but can drive the rifle really well and shoot sub 3/8 moa at 100 yards is going to be far better off than the guy that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards and focuses on spin drift and coriolis and crosswind jump, etc. It could be argued that those matter more at elr distances, but I'm still probably going to put my money on the guy that can shoot small up close.
In reality, a fully adjustable stock or chassis has pretty much ended this argument. Set everything up plumb, adjust the stock to fit, and the internet has nothing to argue about.
Use that level as a tool to teach your eyes and recognize what is level and plumb without having to check the level every time.
fortunately my natural hold jives with being "plumb". Never really thought about the consequences if it didn't. Good point, thanks.
maybe at a shooting range, but out here in the wide open field, things that look level (including the ground) usually are far from it. Catch myself trying to do what you said, just to double check the level, and the optical illusion is making cant the rifle to correct what didn't need to be.
Frank has a post on here where he...or somebody...did the trigonometry. This goes to the above discussion that canting the rifle/scope induces far more error that canting the rifle a bit (cause you scope is not perfectly level with the vertical axis thru the rifle or you choose to for gun fit in your shoulder) but keeping the reticle vertical.
I think this will help illuminate the issue for you.
Gunsmithing - Scope level to a rifle
Reading over this resurrected thread got me thinking. And that's not always the best place for me. It's obvious that the only thing that matters is that the reticle is level when the shot is taken. The rifle could be canted a few degrees and as long as it was zeroed in that position with a level...
www.snipershide.com
No, this exactly where you need to train your eyes and your inner ear to recognize "level". Frank has several episodes in the online training that discuss this very technique. Well worth the several dollars charged.
I do pretty good, its when i look to long thru the scope, and second guess myself. Like looking at a target on a hillside with a tree behind the target. Obviously the hill side can mess with you, especially if its slight. Now lets say the hill is 12* off level, yet the tree is only 2* off level. At a glance with a good natural hold on the rifle sure, but look for to long and naturally you try and center things up. Or at least that is why i keep a level attached to the scope, trued with the reticle. For me it takes less than a second to open my non shooting eye and see the level in my direct line of sight. Idk, the level attached to the optic is what works best for me.
Stop looking at the horizon and level your rifle using the verticle part of the reticle above the horizontal portion.
If you can't do that, then maybe you actually need a level
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