Foretrex 701 w/Ballistics App Vs. Trimble NOMAD and FFS

[TheGerman]

Need someone that knows more about these than me to chime in. I've been fighting with myself over simplifying down to a Foretrex 701 with the ballistics app on it, but then also stick with the NOMAD and FFS due to its vast amount of features. I've also never used anything from Applied Ballistics, so I have no idea what the differences really are.

PROS on the Foretrex:

- Can consolidate everything into something thats on my wrist. No NOMAD to stow and pull out.
- Easily accessable, like a wrist coach, while I'm behind the gun
- I already use a earlier version Foretrex for GPS/navigation

CONS on the Foretrex:

- Zero experience with AB app
- Am under the impression I'd be taking a step down from FFS going to AB
- Doesn't directly link to my PLRF15C or Kestrell like the NOMAD does (please correct me if I'm wrong on this)
- Would use it for both GPS/navigation and the ballistics app; concerned about battery life screwing me in multiple ways
- My PLRF15C is usually ontop of the Spotter 60 or in the hands of someone spotting. It's connected to the NOMAD via a data cable. When my spotter hits the range 'key' on the cable, it automtically ranges and updates the solution based on the range and angle on the FFS screen; my spotter has a solution in seconds. If the Foretrex can't connect like this, it becomes an extra step in this scenario.

A few questions mainly regarding the features I really like in FFS and was curious if the Foretrex/AB combo had them as it is obviously satellite linked:

- In FFS/NOMAD I can use both the GPS as well as the PLRF15C to mark locations which I can designate and save. I can then reference them in the saved library and get solutions on them from whatever position I am at; regardless if I have moved in elevation/distance/direction, etc. I'm guessing since the Foretrex doesn't interface with the PLRF15C, in that it can't calculate and store the GPS location at the end of the beam the LRF hits, it can't do at least half of this.

- FFS allows you to zero your specific gun and load at a specific DA and environmental profile. If selecting this and then entering your current environmentals, it will keep the original zero and adjust your zero for you; just like you would with manual DA cards. It is also capable of switching between multiple bullets and even multiple versions of the different bullets (all you need to do is save a different file with the changes) that you can basically hot swap at any time via 2 or 3 pushes on the screen. How does the Foretrex and BA handle this?

- FFS allows you to enter the change in the FPS per temperature degree change and will take that into its calculations based on your FPS and zeroing enviromentals. How does BA handle this?

- Am I reading it correctly that the 701 gives station pressure? Can it then calculate density altitude from calculating the station pressure in the unit and the temperature component from an attached Tempe sensor that you can attach to the inside of your ruck or belt? Or is it way more complicated than that? Question is, can the unit basically calculate DA on its own given you have both the unit and the Tempe sensor on you?

- Is the Foretrex screen touch enabled, or able to be used with a stylus? Nothing is more obnoxious than having to remember the sequence of the key buttons on the interface to get to things on your screen.

- Battery life - someone talk to me about this. The Garmin I have holds up as far as battery life when its on nonstop, but I really wish it was longer. Did this improve?

 

[Clearlight]

I haven’t dug deep enough to recall if you can mark a target without visiting it first and dropping a pin .
Same with tethering an RF , not sure but don’t think so. You can easily setup a target / range card
from your FP , but range is manual entry only I think . ( Might be wrong there ) .

The 701 can handle a bunch ( 100 I think ) of rifles , and plenty of bullets as a new profile .
Switching profiles is just a couple of button pushes , and you have a new solution . I have a few
different bullet profiles for CB , CCB etc . Alternately , you could just quick edit the velocity .

There’s a temp scaling function that operates like fps / degree in some programs . Just entering say
3 data points is enough for the solver to figure it out . As we know , sometimes the temp/ fps swing
is non linear , but it seems to work well on the 701 .

Unit measures station pressure , and uses Tempe sensor for solutions . As always , the actual temp
might be off if it’s body worn . I’ve set mine to auto update , works great , solutions are excellent .

Not touch sensitive , but very easy to get to the point of quick operation . I usually detest devices where
one button has too many functions ( hello Kestrel... ) , but this one isn’t too bad . Despite being knocked
on the head more times than I want to admit , and struggling with TV remotes , I got up to speed pretty
fast with the 701 .

Battery life is dependant on mode . In Ultratrac mode , which pings satellites at a much slower rate , my
unit seems to run around 7-10 days of constant use . In really cold weather take off a day or two . Way
better than a Nomad , and no need for heavy charger packs , just a couple of AAA ’s to be safe . Really
easy to switch from GPS mode , to ‘watch only ‘ mode to save battery life : it’ll run for a month or more in
watch mode .

What I really like , is the inclusion of every BC and Custom Drag Model , that Applied Ballistics has
generated over the last few years . You are getting the whole library with the device . I usually just run the
CDMs as they are very close to my actual dope . Last time out , was third round hit at 1907 meters with
my 300 NM , and fifth round hit at 2500 meters with 338 Lap . Much to my delight , elevation was great ,
just the usual wind dance to deal with .

As I’m getting older , I like simplicity . I can run a minimal loadout , no spotter ( if I’m running a high mag
scope that day ) or other crap , just an RF and the Garmin 701 and get very good results . It’s nice to
carry all the Gucci gear for some jobs , but for recreational steel shooting , traveling light suits me well .
Not having to shoot heaps of data points to true solution ( aka FFS/Nomad ) is a blessing too .

I’d say yeah , get one . Recycle the old Garmin to a relative or friend in need , for karma points .

 

[Conrad]

One feature I hope the upgrade on the Garmin is a mobile app to build and sync profiles from via bluetooth. If I'm on the go and want to build a new profile this allows this. I don't care for plugging it into the desktop, but it is faster than building them on the device itself, which is a bit slow.

Once profiles are in it, it's good. Solutions are good and read out is clear. I've been strapping mine to a mini tripod for easy viewing of the range or target card if I'm just working different distances in the prone. Always a fan of batteries so I can easily replace in the field.

 

[TheGerman]

I haven’t dug deep enough to recall if you can mark a target without visiting it first and dropping a pin .
Same with tethering an RF , not sure but don’t think so. You can easily setup a target / range card
from your FP , but range is manual entry only I think . ( Might be wrong there ) .

The 701 can handle a bunch ( 100 I think ) of rifles , and plenty of bullets as a new profile .
Switching profiles is just a couple of button pushes , and you have a new solution . I have a few
different bullet profiles for CB , CCB etc . Alternately , you could just quick edit the velocity .

There’s a temp scaling function that operates like fps / degree in some programs . Just entering say
3 data points is enough for the solver to figure it out . As we know , sometimes the temp/ fps swing
is non linear , but it seems to work well on the 701 .

Unit measures station pressure , and uses Tempe sensor for solutions . As always , the actual temp
might be off if it’s body worn . I’ve set mine to auto update , works great , solutions are excellent .

Not touch sensitive , but very easy to get to the point of quick operation . I usually detest devices where
one button has too many functions ( hello Kestrel... ) , but this one isn’t too bad . Despite being knocked
on the head more times than I want to admit , and struggling with TV remotes , I got up to speed pretty
fast with the 701 .

Battery life is dependant on mode . In Ultratrac mode , which pings satellites at a much slower rate , my
unit seems to run around 7-10 days of constant use . In really cold weather take off a day or two . Way
better than a Nomad , and no need for heavy charger packs , just a couple of AAA ’s to be safe . Really
easy to switch from GPS mode , to ‘watch only ‘ mode to save battery life : it’ll run for a month or more in
watch mode .

What I really like , is the inclusion of every BC and Custom Drag Model , that Applied Ballistics has
generated over the last few years . You are getting the whole library with the device . I usually just run the
CDMs as they are very close to my actual dope . Last time out , was third round hit at 1907 meters with
my 300 NM , and fifth round hit at 2500 meters with 338 Lap . Much to my delight , elevation was great ,
just the usual wind dance to deal with .

As I’m getting older , I like simplicity . I can run a minimal loadout , no spotter ( if I’m running a high mag
scope that day ) or other crap , just an RF and the Garmin 701 and get very good results . It’s nice to
carry all the Gucci gear for some jobs , but for recreational steel shooting , traveling light suits me well .
Not having to shoot heaps of data points to true solution ( aka FFS/Nomad ) is a blessing too .

I’d say yeah , get one . Recycle the old Garmin to a relative or friend in need , for karma points .

Yeah I'm thinking about it. It's hard because I spent so much time learning FFS, and there are still more features it offers.

Just curious what size targets are you shooting at 1907 and 2500?

 

[Clearlight]

^^ 20 by 20 inch at 1907 , 30 x 30 at 2500 , both square . Less than 12 mph peak gusts on both
targets , and a long 4 - 6 mph steady period in between . Both targets were really beyond the ideal
effective range of each cal , but that’s the point for me . Much less than that , and I feel I’m treading
familiar ground too much , and boredom sets in unless the wind is high .

Yeah I hear ya , FFS in a large investment in $$ and time , but there’s always another way . Ideally
when Applied Ballistics gets bigger , ( and I have no doubt they will expand significantly ) they will
offer their own solver device / hardware , instead of sticking their software in other devices .

 

[Stevo3556]

Well Clearlight really covered your questions and I agree with everything he said.

I can add that I have had mine almost a year and shoot with it every week at least once. When I bought it i spent lots of time in the owner's manual and following along with the 701. I felt like I knew it well, however can't remember everything as I really only use the AB functions.

I own LOTS of Garmin aviation equipment and love it. Their user interface is easy and logical to follow. Once you use one Garmin product you know how to use the others. Unfortunately this device is not as intuitive and although I find it easier to use than my Kestrel, has lots of button pushing and the display is not as fine, fewer pixels, than what I'm used to with Garmin. A better interface with a computer would be nice as mentioned.

It does have a few neto features that I didn't expect, interfaces to your phone and will receive texts sent to your iPhone is really the only one I use.

Since you already have the Foretrex I think this would be an easy step for you. I typically shoot at 300, 500, 700, 850, and 1,000 yards. Sometime we move back another 200 so add that to the distances and at every distance, in my experience with the 701 AB, the DOPE is very accurate. After sighting in at 100 yards then doing the muzzle velocity calibration I am within .1 mil out to 1200 yards with three rifles. I don't expect that to change when I add a couple more. I also have the same rifle in twice with a different load, DOPE is accurate as I would expect, so I don't see why adding different loads/bullets would be a stretch as you asked. Easy to label each rifle/load so there is no guessing what you are using. The only fault is when I don't input wind correctly..... Finding this to be my next big learning curve.

You can make waypoints using Lat/Long so I would certainly think you could place them in your 10 targets page. You can also make a custom name for each target and it will show your dope for each one.

I'm sure you have seen this, but in case you have not,
Link to 701 http://appliedballisticsllc.com/products/devices/g701/
You can find other links that you need from here.

PDF owner's manual. Page 2 explains how to create a waypoint.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Downloads/Foretrex_601-701_OM_EN.PDF

Hope this helps...
Steve

 

[MarinePMI]

Does anyone know if an AB app will ever be made compatible with the 701 for linking/uploading profiles?

 

[Conrad]

I agree. I hope they make this a priority.

Does anyone know if an AB app will ever be made compatible with the 701 for linking/uploading profiles?

 

[Clearlight]

That would be nifty . I’m grateful enough for the accurate solutions for now .

 

[MarinePMI]

Maybe @Lowlight has some insight(?)...

 

[Lowlight]

I have written Garmin (My points of contact for this anyway) to ask they expand the capabilities of the unit.

I asked for a few upgrades like the ability to link a Weather Flow Meter and hopefully, we can get some Terrapin Support too.

Uploading profiles I have not mentioned but i can

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Does anyone know if an AB app will ever be made compatible with the 701 for linking/uploading profiles?

I wouldn't write it off as not being possible. We are working on some things. It might not work like you mention here. But if field testing continues to perform as it has, you will be able to transfer profiles cross platform. Mainly from app to app. So profiles you build in one app (regardless of the operating system) would get synced to the cloud. At which point you can download them to a different app (regardless of platform) and use them there. The exception being the user would need to have purchased a CDM on the AB Mobile app if they tried to transfer a profile from one of the apps that has all the CDMs built in, to one that requires them to be purchased individually.

On that note the Garmin partnership is only getting started. Lots of good stuff in the works.

 

[MarinePMI]

Good to hear that this is being discussed with Garmin (thanks for the info Frank). I pulled the trigger on one of these, rather than upgrade to the Kestrel 5700 (should be here next week). I rarely use the wind meter function on the Kestrel unless the wind is above 12-15mph, so wanted something that was more wearable (I hate having to constantly pull the Kestrel out every time to read ballistic solutions) and with a bit bigger screen (the eyes aren't what they used to be when reading things up close). We'll see how it shakes out. I'm cautiously optimistic.

(Plus, the Kestrel 4500 software BT PC interface is complete bullshit. Reminds me of shit code you'd have a college intern churn out. Not sure who's responsible for it, Kestrel or AB, but at this point, I just want to get away from it).

 

[MarinePMI]

I wouldn't write it off as not being possible. We are working on some things. It might not work like you mention here. But if field testing continues to perform as it has, you will be able to transfer profiles cross platform. Mainly from app to app. So profiles you build in one app (regardless of the operating system) would get synced to the cloud. At which point you can download them to a different app (regardless of platform) and use them there. The exception being the user would need to have purchased a CDM on the AB Mobile app if they tried to transfer a profile from one of the apps that has all the CDMs built in, to one that requires them to be purchased individually.

On that note the Garmin partnership is only getting started. Lots of good stuff in the works.

Doc, I'd think part of the interface spec for an AB device would have some notation whether it comes with CDM's. That being the case, the export software should be able to validate (obfuscated from the user) whether the CDM is "authorized" to transfer to a device/app that doesn't support CDM's. Think of it as a simple authentication assertion made at the API level.

 

[TheGerman]

I'm interested but on the fence.

FFS has been fantastic especially since I shoot a lot of different calibers as well as multi calibers in one rifle. While I'd love to consolidate into a little wrist computer instead of the brick the Trimble is the lack of data cable for the PLRF really puts this into the category where I'd have one thing if I was alone, and another thing if I had a spotter with me. The absolute LAST thing I need is more equipment.

Waiting to see how this evolves.