Suppressors Form 4 - Signature required or not?

[texas_vet00]

I have always signed my Form 1's and Form 4's and was recently told last week by my dealer that there is no signature required from me on Form 4. He stated that they do this all the time and I need not worry.

He made a full copy of my trust to keep on file there and that way when I want another can, just call him and pay for the can over the phone with my cc and then can simply mail off a copy of my trust (since already on file) along with 2 of Form 4 and that no signature needed.

He also stated that since he has full copy of my trust then no 5330.20 Cert is needed either.

 

[Conrad101st]

Sign it anyway.

 

[corey4]

from my understanding, the trust is a private document, for you and you only. there is no reason the dealer needs a copy, but that is just me. the one can i bought in april, the dealer (in state 4 hours away) insisted i give him a copy. i refused. besides, you have to update the items owned by the trust once they are received, and if your "old" copy he has isn't updated then there might be an issue with the ATF when you buy another can from a different dealer, and then buy a can from him after the fact. i don't know for sure.

also, i have heard horror stories of the dealer doing the customer a favor by submitting all of the paper work. SUBMIT IT YOURSELF. if you want it done right, do it yourself. it only takes 2 beers worth of time (depending on how fast you sip) to make the copy of the trust, fill out the paper work, makes copies of that, fill out the check, make a copy, stuff it in an envelope and scribble the address down.

sign the form 4, like conrad said.

also, even thought the certificate of compliance is not required, i send one anyways. it is redundant, but it only takes 2 sips of beer.

make copies of everything.

and have another beer!

like you stated in your post, you have always signed the forms, so why stop now.

by the way, i am not a lawyer, just a hillbilly.

 

[Graham]

Form 4 - Signature required or not?

Per the ATF: The trust doesn't sign a citizenship declaration, it isn't a citizen. And you don't submit the assignment page of your trust. Have your dealer call them if you have questions. They will answer them. And dealers don't get a copy of your trust.

 

[wfjames22]

Per the ATF: ... And you don't submit the assignment page of your trust....

If this is true, why do they request it before they will approve your application if you don't send it in the first time?

 

[Graham]

If this is true, why do they request it before they will approve your application if you don't send it in the first time?

Have another look at my post: They do not request the assignment page, nor do they require it.


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[wfjames22]

Have another look at my post: They do not request the assignment page, nor do they require it.


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No need to have another look at your post, since I understood what you said. I am asking you why they will not approve a form 1/form 4 application when using a trust unless you submit the assignment page/schedule a/schedule of assets/whatever your attorney names it? It is one of the most common reasons for an "error" letter/delay when applying with a trust.

 

[Graham]

No need to have another look at your post, since I understood what you said. I am asking you why they will not approve a form 1/form 4 application when using a trust unless you submit the assignment page/schedule a/schedule of assets/whatever your attorney names it? It is one of the most common reasons for an "error" letter/delay when applying with a trust.

You keep repeating that as if it's a fact, but you give no illustrations, examples or sources for that information.

So you and I are going to have to disagree on this, because I've never submitted one and I've never had either a delay or a refusal for not submitting one.

Do you have first hand experience of this or are you just repeating what you said for the purpose of arguing with me?

 

[wfjames22]

You keep repeating that as if it's a fact, but you give no illustrations, examples or sources for that information.

So you and I are going to have to disagree on this, because I've never submitted one and I've never had either a delay or a refusal for not submitting one.

Do you have first hand experience of this or are you just repeating what you said for the purpose of arguing with me?

I am fine with agreeing to disagree. I am also not arguing with you but I have seen error letters for not including a schedule a and read of many others that have had this problem. I have always sent one in with my trust when applying for a form1 or form4. As with anything NFA related, it seems that you will get a different answer from each person at the ATF that you speak with.

I also believe you when you say that you have never sent one and have not had any problems. That doesn't surprise me in the least considering what a broken system it is that is in place. After seeing and reading of issues with the omission of a schedule a, I personally don't have an issue with sending one in with my trust. Even though it's only a couple week delay if they send an error letter, I'd rather play it safe than give them any reason to delay my processing.

 

[Graham]

Form 4 - Signature required or not?

Some lawyers who write these trusts suggest that the applicant submit a separate assignment page each time, with only the new item to be added written on that page.

Other lawyers who deal with these issues say that you can't assign to the trust something that you don't yet have and have not yet acquired.

Some people don't submit the assignment page on the basis that although it has been purchased by the trust the item does not actually get assigned to the trust until after permission to possess it has been received and before actual possession is acquired.

On the other hand, a tax stamp isn't technically a permit to possess, and it is indeed the trust that is making the application.

Welcome to Wonderland.

 

[317millhand]

Trust or individual, you do not need to sign the form 4 for a suppressor purchases or AOW. Item 15 only requires signature and reason of purchase for machineguns, sbr's, sbs's, and destructive devices.

 

[corey4]

so, what would be the harm in signing the form?

just looking for education, not to argue.

 

[Conrad101st]

Trust or individual, you do not need to sign the form 4 for a suppressor purchases or AOW. Item 15 only requires signature and reason of purchase for machineguns, sbr's, sbs's, and destructive devices.

I did not know that. Wonder if the examiners know that as well?
That said, why risk it??? I've signed the form4 for both my cans.

 

[Helidriver]

I did not know that. Wonder if the examiners know that as well?
That said, why risk it??? I've signed the form4 for both my cans.

Same here. I have all of my cans on a trust and I signed every one of the form 4s. Why risk it when you know signing it will not cause an issue. I would not feel comfortable having an unsigned, stamped form 4 in my trust. I don't want the validity of my trust or transfers ever questioned.

 

[317millhand]

There is no harm in signing it at all. I have done it myself on everything, and only realized recently after using Eform that it was not required. When an Eform is submitted for a trust, there isnt even an option to sign it for a suppressor or AOW. If you read item 15 it specifically states "machinegun, short barrel rifle, short barrel shotgun, or destructive device."

Another misconception is that you need to get ATF approval when crossing state lines with suppressors. That rule does not apply to suppressors or AOW's. Just make sure that suppressors are legal in that state that you will be travelling.

 

[Renegade]

Signature not needed for silencer, no harm done if it is signed.

 

[ncpilot]

So..... if I was expecting a rejection due to my dealer not printing form 4 front and back, but I got my stamps anyway (~2 wks shy of 8 months since pending), and a signature isn't needed, I shouldn't bring up the issue with batfe?

So... with the e-file (on a trust), stamps will be returned with only page 1 anyway?

 

[wdebo]

I do my form 4's with a trust. I made the mistake of signing the back with my name instead of the trust title. That makes for a quick rejection.

 

[corey4]

if you signed with your name, did you put 'settler' after your name?

i have 3 stamps approved with 6 more pending with that.

 

[wdebo]

No I did not. They letter the sent me stated the way I done the form 4 it would be dual owner ship.

 

[Early Cuyler]

You keep repeating that as if it's a fact, but you give no illustrations, examples or sources for that information.

So you and I are going to have to disagree on this, because I've never submitted one and I've never had either a delay or a refusal for not submitting one.

Do you have first hand experience of this or are you just repeating what you said for the purpose of arguing with me?

I submitted three Form 4's early this year (one AWC Ultra II and two Templar cans) all with my Trust. I did not include a Schedule A which, at the time, only had an xbox game on it (Lawyer said to put something in it). All three Form 4's were sent back requesting the Schedule A portion of the Trust. I'm in Georgia so different Examiners might have slightly different expectations/requirements.