Forster Ultra Micrometer Seating Die

PBWalsh

PBWalsh

Preston Walsh Fitness
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 10, 2017
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Central AL
#1
So I’m on stage two of load development. Settled on some grain weights and now looking at COAL.

Using the Forster die, I have successfully loaded about 2-300 rounds through it and about 100 or so during development.

So during my loading of COAL, I notice my COAL after seating ranges from 2.860 all the way to 2.88/2.90ish. I am using .30 cal 155 Sierra TMK and Federal brass twice fired through the same AIAT factory chamber, brass and bullets are within .002 of the next.

So I take apart the die and try to clean it to make it more repeatable (like the instructions suggest) and then put it back together. At first nothing worked, bullets didn't seat, nothing worked. After half an hour I got bullets to seat.

Now, everytime I try and seat a bullet, they ALL get stuck in the case and I have to take apart the whole die to get the bullet out with pliers. Even tried to lube the inside of the seater. My brass neck ID is .297+/-.001 and I’m running 48.0 grains of Varget.

Again, I have loaded this same brass from this same lot with the same bullet, same charge weight, and now it is decided to crap out and eat my bullets.

Using a basic Lee FL sizer if it matters (I know I need a better one, VERY open to suggestions).

Anyways, any suggestions? I’m sick and tired of my equipment not working and am sick of spending money and not shooting. I like shooting, I HATE screwing around with pissy equipment.
 
#2
Cracked seater stem? Some of the other Hiders have mentioned problems with Forster seating stems, though I have never experienced it on my (Forster) dies.
 
#3
If you had a different brand die, many would suggest trying a vld seating stem. Forster doesn't offer one that I'm aware of but if you send them three projectiles and your die they will custom hone you're seating stem. It sounds like these projectiles are getting stuck in your seating stem, or are so pointy they are bottoming out.

Also base to ogive will give you a lot more consistent numbers and just better data in general then using coal. Hornady makes a great bullet comparator set and headspace kit, these two stay by my calipers and are my most used tools.

I couldn't help but notice you mentioned a hundred rounds during load development. Once you get this seating die figured out, be sure to watch the 6-5 guys YouTube video with Scott satterlee about velocity ladder load development. I've done this several times this year and have a complete load work-up done in 30 or so rounds.
 
#4
Well these bullets I’ve seated in for many shots, so thats why I do not suspect its the bullets. Btogive is better yes, I just need to spend... more money before I can shoot.

Yeah I did 43-48.5 grains to find my charge weight, all loaded in 3 rounds. Found 48.0 to have an SD of 2.9 @ 2.860”. Now I have 47.7-48.9 in .3 grain increments loaded from 2.800”-2.920” to finalize charge weight and seating depth. All variable loaded 3 times for averages. I do not have premium equipment nor skill, therefore I can’t nor trust a clean 10 shot Satterlee ladder.

I know its the seating stem. Or I’m pretty sure.
 
#5
These are the parts I am looking at.
Sleeve, Die threat, micro body, spring, micro head, lock ring, seating stem.



Am I missing any parts?

Also, I’m now hearing a clicking noise when the bullet goes to seat and then subsequently pulled out of the case.

Days like this make me want to tear my hair out, throw my stuff out and just shoot ARs and Glocks...
 
#6
Mate, the inside neck diameter.... Are you stating it is 297 for a 308?
If you are seating projectiles into brass resized to those dimensions, um you probably should look at that for possibly causing you issues.
Inside neck should be 305 / 306.
Perhaps I've missed something though?
 
#7
If I’m reading you’re initial post correctly, you have .011” neck tension on these rounds, which is ridiculously high. That’s over five times more than what I and most other people use, which is .002” neck tension. If this is the case, I’m 95% sure this is the root of your bullet seating problems. I’ve never used a Lee sizing die, but every Redding, Forster, and RCBS expanding ball I’ve ever seen is sized to give about .002” neck tension.
 
#8
Rechecked my ID necks, they show .3045”.

Also to note that bullets are not getting stuck with cases WITHOUT powder. For whatever reason they are only sticking in cases with powder.

Again, I’ve loaded a few at 48.0 grains. Is there another O-ring I’m missing in the above picture?
 
#11
Well assuming your in the US and it is cooler at the moment, just be careful as it warms up, because that is a hot load.
I'm surprised the cases are holding up.
How bout reducing the variables and drop down to 46-47gn of powder and see how your seating efforts go?
Perhaps being a compressed load and a fairly high neck tension is causing the projectile to stick in the stem?
Compressed loads (heavy) will mess with setting depths.........
 
#12
I’ve never seen this sort of problem before. You’re neck tension is still a little higher than normal, but not extreme like your initial stated neck ID. I would also agree that the seating stem is the problem. There is a chance the stem is simply a terrible fit for the bullets you’re using, and it wore in as you used it becoming worse. You probably should have seen obvious and significant jacket deformation on the rounds you loaded without problem previously if this is the problem. The only instant, free solution I can think of would be to carefully and methodically sand or polish the seating stem. I’ve heard the Forster stems are prone to cracking easily, so be careful.
 
#13
Ok so I just pulled a loaded round and a round that has been sticking. Both loaded with powders thrown from a Lee powder thrower and not trickled. The loaded round measured 47.8 and the sticking round was at 47.7.

Placed the previously loaded round onto the shell holder, placed the same bullet on top and slowly ran the press arm. Felt the bullet seat and began retracting the arm. Heard an all too familiar small “pop” and upon brass extraction, alas, no bullet seated, stuck again in die.

I’ve read of reports of this particular die not working properly with VLD bullets, perhaps it may be any sleeker modern projectile such as a TMK/ELDM/Berger Hybrid/VLD/Hybrid Target/Palma.

Haven’t thought about the die wearing in improperly. Have noticed very faint ring marks on all hullets since the first loaded one. I’m gussing that is not common?

Is there a reason I should get a different bullet seater that is also easy to adjust COAL?
 
#14
As mentioned by sjc929, if your seating stem isn't cracked..... Then that bullet isn't suited to the seater stem.
I've loaded thousands of 155.5 Bergers and HBC (155) with the same Forster seater with zero drama's. Though with less neck tension and powder charge.
Having that ring around the projectile though, is indicating a fair amount of force to seat the round and average compatibility (stem/projectile).
Perhaps the stem is obviously not a great fit, but if it is seating rounds in empty sized cases without drama's?

I believe you have too much seating force with that stem and projectile, so.......
Reduce the powder charge, reduce your neck tension, increase OAL or change your seater.
None of these options are what you want to hear....
Easiest, reduce you powder charge (46gn) or increase your OAL , see how you go?
The joys of reloading!!! lol
 
#15
If all you saw previously was faint ring marks, that should be an indication that the stem is a slightly poor fit for your bullets, but not terrible. I think it should have been crushing the jacket if the stem were bad enough to deteriorate to what you’re current problem is. The faint marks are fairly common, especially when using a die with a “one size fits all” stem and a bullet with an non standard ogive/ point geometry, like a VLD style or maybe a small flat base varmint style. It’s only bad if there is physical deformation to the jacket of the bullet. If you can’t fix your stem by sanding and polishing the stem to change the angle where it engages the bullet, I would look at a Hornady seater die. You can by a micrometer head as an upgrade, and they also sell different stems for each caliber. This lets you have several with different geometries, and always pick the one that best fits the bullet you’re currently using. For what it’s worth, I’ve been using Forster micromoter seating dies exclusively for the past 5 or so years in several different calibers, and never had this problem, so I wouldn’t consider this normal or expected. Something strange and interesting seems to have happened to your die.
 
#16
Ok, just loaded a few different tests.

1) 45.0 @ 2.860
- 3 rounds loaded great, 4th round stuck
2) 45.0 @ 2.800
- Same as above, 3 loaded, 4th stuck
3) 45.0 (thrown, not trickled) @ 2.800
- Was just doing this to test my ES/SD against trickled charge weights.

So even at less powder and less OAL, I still seem to have problems. Have not tried less powder and longer OAL yet.

Calling Foster in the morning and going to ask about it. The sticking bullets did not happen until I disassembled the die... but its basically a few threaded pipes and a spring, not rocket science, even for me.

Off to bed... now on 23.5 hours...
... ps don’t reload while sleepy, makes one supremely pissy...
 
#17
Compressed loads and or excessive neck tension will exacerbate the condition I described in my original post. In either case I would send a few projectiles to Forster and have them hone your seating stem to your specific application. If that doesn't work consider changing powders or projectiles (my vote) and get rid of the crunch.
 
#18
All I have been using is Forster dies and had good success until I began loading 6XC. I experienced similar results as you (COAL/Ogive measurements that were not very consistent. I did not take my die apart (just mic’ed them and adjusted each loaded road until correct). This was a huge pain and I was curious what I might be doing wrong. I have since sold that die and was going to try something different. Hope you can find a simple resolve and am curious as to a solution.
Good luck!
 
#19
@dbransco

Thats exactly what I’ve been doing, measuring every single COAL and adjusting sometimes 3 - 5 times before finally doing right. Before I took it apart it did have some bounce in the die, now it has no bounce.

What die did you go to? How are the Hornday seaters?

I’m not missing an o-ring anywhere am I?

Funny thing is I didn’t plan on using TMKs, but had about 375 left over from a previous rifle. I planned on using Hornady 155 ELDMs due to similar BC and much lower cost.
 
#20
Hold on, what about this.

So it wasn't happening until you took it apart. Now it happens randomly. You notice noises and compression of powder.

Could you have your seating stem simply down too far? Such that it's pushing the bullet into the powder, but with sufficient force the bullet sometimes gets stuck on the seating stem? Which would mean the ones that are being seated are being heavily compressed.

That's all I can think of. Will it do this with no powder? That'd be the test to rule out the above. If it seats it normally, it's not the above. If it pushes it down into the case, it is.

I use Forster dies in .308 and others and never had a problem. Only other thing I can think of is the bullet seater not holding the bullet properly for the bullet you're using (but you're using a pretty popular bullet) or something with the stem itself, which looks fine. The sliding sleeve is working properly?

Definitely call Forster, I usually go straight to the mfg. too. Curious what it could be doing it.
 
#21
Yeah it seats perfectly fine without powder. I place the stem into the sleeve with about .125” of the smooth part of the stem (before the threads) sticking out of the sleeve.

Like I mentioned last night, it did the same thing at 45 grains as well.

Calling Foster today and will speak with them before getting rid of my bullets and trying ELDMs. Hopefully I can have someone walk me through EXACTLY how to put it back together just in case I’m mentally deficient.

I like the die, I really do, I promise...
 
#22
About a year ago Forster stopped using hardened seating stems. If you have a seating stem that is black it’s a hardened stem. If you have the plain metal colored stem which the OP has then it’s not hardened. I’ve had nothing but problems with the non hardened stems. They start to bell and flare almost immediately within the first 100 rounds. The stem then starts sticking inside the floating stem. I’ve sent the die and seating stem back to Forster and same thing happened when I got it back. Just sent the die in again this week because it’s basically a paper weight.

I ended up switching to a Redding competition seating die. Problem solved.
 
#25

They make great dies and I've used several of them for years. Most of mine are the BR not the ultra, but internally the same. Forster is known for having great customer service, I'm sure they'll get you straightened away.
 
#26
Awaiting a callback now. Went ahead and got some more components anyways including a box of 155 ELDMs.

Took a second look at my preliminary data. I was using a 48.0 grain node because of a 2.6 SD. However once I graphed the velocities, 48.0 is a HUGE spike (relatively speaking) on the graph while 45-47 is flatish.



Re-watching the Satterlee ladder from 6.5 Guys and going from 45.0 - 48.0 in .2 grain increments. Basically starting over, but I’m very green and need to. Using virgin Lapua LRP brass this time instead of once fired FGMM brass with Fed 210M primers instead of CCI-200. Going to load at 2.800”.

Hopefully I can get this done tomorrow.
 
#27
That's a major upgrade on the brass. Lapua and Alpha Munitions are the only brass I use. 2/10 gr steps, compared to what you did before, will more easily identify your flat spots. I actually use 1/10 gr steps myself, as it appeals to my OCD, lol. Sounds like you got a good plan though. We all go through these little bumps in the road, which advances our skill set. Point being, It won't always be this much of a pain in the ass. Good luck.
 
#28


Haha! I seriously hope you’re right! Past few times I’ve been on the edge on selling my AIAT and going to carbine and pistol! I love the piss out of bolts though.

Hopefully I can shoot over chrono tomorrow and report back.
 
#29
Told me the same thing. I have had the same problems described in this thread. Their CS is awesome but their non-hardened stems are problematic. Since they are so awesome I did buy one for my 6.5. It is however leaving rings on the 140eld-m bullets. I am going to try to polish it myself. I am also going to a mandrel and redding bushing FL Die to hopefully control neck tension better.

If that all that fails I will try the redding seater....
 
#30

Having used several Forster and Redding competition seaters, I consider them equals. With certain issues and certainly the rings you describe many folks are polishing the seating stem as you mention.

I read folks are chucking either a projectile or the seating stem into a drill, applying Flitz polish to projectile, and polishing the sharp angle off bottom lip of seating stem. A Dremel with conical polishing pad with lapping compound or Flitz would likewise polish and slightly reshape the seating stem.

Some folks are sending them back to Forster with a few projectiles to have them custom honed. With Redding dies many folks are opting for the vld seating stem.

In either case it does not appear to be a particularly unusual problem, but luckily the solutions seem pretty straightforward. It's not that these companies don't do their homework, there are just far too many profiles of bullets out there for one seating stem to play nice with them all.
 
#31
One of forster’s fixes was for me to send a few projectiles so they could polish the stem for the profile of the bullet. That stem too flared in a matter of not so many rounds. The issue is two fold. One is the lack of heat treat on the stem. 2 is the fact that their tolerance between the stem and the sliding sleeve is so close(to reduce run out) that it leaves very little thickness in material at the mouth of the seating stem. It takes very little force to muchroom or bell the mouth.
If you look at Redding’s seating stem. 1 they’re hardened. They polish the stem afterwards so they don’t look it and 2 the mouth of the stem is much thicker. They probably have a larger tolerance between the sleeve and stem than Forster does(possibly more run out).
I believe IMO that Forster stoped hardening their stems for two reasons. 1 they tend to crack over time due to their hardness resulting in more warranties and 2 it’s just cheaper eliminating that step of the process. Basically they need to start gardening their stems again IMO
 
#36


So... not sure what went wrong... did not get a reading with the 150 FMJs at 45.4, and not at 46.6 and 47 with the 155 ELDMs. Noticed a flat spot with the FMJs at two points as shown. My velocities for the ELDMs were obviously all over the place. Weighed every charge as closely as my $35 MCM Case Guard scale will do (advertised at+/- .2 grain). Yes I know I need a better scale. Everything loaded to 2.800" +/- .01".

Found what appears to be two nodes with the FMJs at 45.6 - 45.8 and 46.2 - 46.6. The ELDMs were all over the place. If it matters, I loaded the FMJs before the ELDMs while loading these last night.

150 FMJ
45 - 2738 .2 - 2784 .4 - .6 - 2790 .8 - 2790
46 - 2753 .2 - 2803 .4 - 2809 .6 - 2807 .8 - 2826
47 - 2784 .2 - 2807 .4 - 2850 .6 - 2765 .8 - 2861

155 ELDM
45 - 2794 .2 - 2761 .4 - 2797 .6 - 2746 .8 - 2786
46 - 2711 .2 - 2824 .4 - 2791 .6 - .8 - 2858
47 - .2 - 2782 .4 - 2877 .6 - 2864 .8 -

Powders were thrown just below the grain needed (44.7 for 45 for example), then used a trickler to get to my charge weight. Primers were all seated nice and flat, nothing abnormal there from what I can see. Virgin Lapua brass. No pressure signs on the brass or during the bolt lift, ran smooth as an AI always does. The two 15 shot groups at 100 yards were all in about a 1.75" group over the full ladder, probably would have been sub 1.25" but I jerked a few. Shot off a rolled up blanket up front (no bipod at the moment, hopefully n ATLAS or TBAC soon though) and had a Rifles Only rear bag in the back

Unsure what exactly went wrong. Any suggestions?

***If this is getting too off topic I'll post it in the reloading section.***
 
#37
You’re error of .01” on OAL is pretty bad. I think you mentioned earlier you were getting readings from the tip as opposed to from the ogive, but even still I think you should be able to hold about half of that error. My loads, regardless of caliber, will fall within a .0015” (measuring from ogive) range over 50 rounds if I don’t touch my die setting, usually the last 10 to 15 will be the ones that are longer than .0005” off from my desired length.

Your electronic scale is also not doing you any favors. I’m not sure if when they say .2gr accuracy, they actually mean accuracy, or if they actually mean resolution, or both. Regardless, I don’t think .2gr for either quality is good enough for precision reloading. You certainly don’t need .02gr resolution from an FX120i, but .1gr should be what you look for in a scale. I don’t know if you’re familiar with some of the “nuances” of using an electronic scale precisely, but you want to let it warm up for a while before you use it with nothing on it. You also want to make sure it’s getting consistent (nonfluctuating) power while you’re using it, and keep air flow, vibrations and other electromagnetic devices away from it while using it.

Finally, I never do load development with virgin brass, even Lapua. I recently got a Proof barrel for my AX, and got new Lapua brass for it. I think most of the brass had a headspace of around 1.466”, and my Proof barrel turns out to have a very tight chamber, the fired rounds are coming out 1.467”. I only run the necks through an expander ball before loading the virgin cases. About 8-10% of the cases have resistance when closing the bolt, marking those as being longer than the average case. Even Lapua cases have variance in their geometry. Also, depending on your barrel’s headspace, the virgin cases could grow significantly, changing your internal volume when you load them from then on, which will likely change your velocity anyway.

Any of these things could cause you to get poor velocity readings, but there are others also. Based on my experience, these three are what I would personally look into first to try to solve your problems. I’d probably rank the powder measurement as the primary concern, with OAL and virgin brass as secondary concerns.
 
#38
Ok, without upgrading my scale, what can I do to it to help things along? Would a balance beam scale be better and economical?

Didn’t know that about the virgin brass. I did have maybe 2 - 3 rounds have a small bump before close.

For COAL, I had maybe 3 read 2.799 and not 2.8005.
 
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#39
If you don’t mind the fact that a beam scale will be slower to use, they are a very great cheap alternative to get very consistent precision in your charges. I’ve seen several people that will place a video camera pointing at the balance point and stream it on a laptop beside them. This keeps you from having to bend down to look at the scale straight on, and you can also zoom in to get a better view.

There are a lot of digital scales that are cheap, have .1gr resolution, and are better suited to precision reloading. As long as you are religious in doing the things I mentioned earlier, they should all give adequate precision. If you make sure to use an appropriate calibration weight that is close to the weight of your powder charge, they should all give you more than adequate accuracy as well.

If you were getting .001” instead of .01” error on you’re OAL, then that is very good and shouldn’t be what is causing you’re erratic velocities.
 
#41

Thanks, I just got a forster bench rest die set based in all the positive reviews. They're tight on the RDF 130s I have and I see faint ring. Thought about sending them in, but would rather do it myself.
 
#42
I figure based on what I can tell my weak point is my scale. I’m using a decent single stage O-frame press (Lee Challenger), Foster seater, good components, and QC. Maybe I could do better FL dies as I’m currently rocking a cheap Lee FL die and have not to much clue as to how to customize it. Brass is increasing by about .008 - .010 between firing and coming out of the die.

I’ll look at a beam scale.

Zero problems seating now. Polished the seater with Crest toothpaste on a TMK in a drill. Also polished the sleeve as well because I noticed bullets were not cleanly passing through the sleeve. That and I’m not running 48.0 grains of a pretty compressed charge...
 
#43
Mate, don't trickle up with cheap scales (pan on scale), it generally will make things worse error wise. They just don't like it.
It is normally much better to remove the pan, increase your powder charge (Varget- 5 kernals = 0.1 gn approx), then re-weigh your charge again.
You are also more than likely chasing your tail with load development using these scales. You could be getting 0.4gn variations in charges of the same weight. Your figures at times will be all over place. Deffinately get, at the very least a good beam scale.
Goodluck
 
#45
I use an RCBS electronic Chargemaster When the powder bin is filled just right it comes in perfect. That lasts for about 10 rounds though. Basically, I use the RCBS for ballpark measurement AND THEN use a Hornady balance beam to tweak. Tweaking is usually in the form of 2 - 3 kernels of powder. A little time consuming but that's the way it is.

As far as measuring COAL - man you have GOT TO spend the money and get those ogive collars. Length of bullets varies so much it's ridiculous. Case head to bullet ogive of a loaded round is so much more accurate. Maybe other guys are more particular but my margin of variance for head to ogive is +/- .003. I use a Brown & Sharpe digital caliper.

And yeah, my Forster leaves rings around my bullets but fortunately, mine never got stuck. Wish I could help you with that.
 
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#46

Research the new RCBS chargemaster lite. Heard great things from several people using that unit. I'm using Auto trickler set up these last six or eight months, but used two older chargemasters side-by-side prior to that. And to be honest my SD is unchanged, and is consistently 3-6 in various calibers.

The auto trickler is really nice and I mainly bought it for speed as I'm loading two or three hundred rounds at a time for PRS matches, have small kids, trying to prioritize my time. But my two charge Masters loaded great ammo for years with very similar or same SDS per my magnetospeed V3.

At this point I think controlling neck tension has more impact on good numbers than the scales. And the past year I've learned to appreciate the Redding Type-S full size bushing dies, and just last week receive 6 and 6.5 mm carbide mandrels from Sinclair.

Main use for mandrels for me is to open up Virgin brass a little bit, but will do some testing to see if the juice is worth the squeeze regarding adding it to my regular routine. My only point being, think about neck tension, a lot.
 
#47
Yes, buying the ogive unit from Hornady this weekend. Will need to save for a few weeks for the scale though.

@RedRyder Are you refering the the Hornady L-n-L beam?

Until I can get a new scale, I’m just going to run these FMJs at 46.4 grains for practice.

Any benefit to upgrading my FL sizing die to a Hornady/RCBS/etc? If I’m putting money in a scale, might as well make sure my brass is sized properly.
 
#48
Affirm on the LNL. Also PB, I edited my post because I thought my original may have been misleading. I use an RCBS Chargemaster to dispense and weigh. Then I use the Hornady LNL to tweak. I also added that I use Brown & Sharpe calipers for measuring head to ogive.
 
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#49
A couple of things stand out to me in your process. I think your sizing die might be giving you some of your inconsistencies since its putting so much neck tension on the brass. I really like the Redding bushing dies ( and the seating dies for that matter). Since you asked I would recommend a bushing die and the correct bushing for your brass.

I have a chargemaster lite and REALLY like it. Throws consistent and has sped up my reloading process. I made 20 rounds of precision 243 ammo with it last and it was sub 1/2 MOA, I am waiting on another range day to check speed and es/sd.
 
#50

The root of your seating problem was that you are compressing powder with the seating stem. The seating stem is meant to deal with the force of normal neck tension. The force of the long press handle against a full case of powder is just too much for that tiny seating stem and thin bullet jacket to deal with.

Solution is to move to a faster powder if you want those higher velocities with 155gr bullets. Try H4895 or XBR8202, the fill ratio will be better and avoid issues with compressed loads. Use the Varget on heavier bullets.
 
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