Ft Hood...again?!?

[FatCow]

Apologies it is just by habit, 13F is the MOS identifier for a fister aka forward observer type, 11B is infantryman, and FA is Field Artillery.

Appreciate that tidbit, it's ok though I'm used to it. My brother speaks purely in acronyms after a bad day, Lol.

 

[Sharpsman]

I've noticed in a few of the bases I've visited recently, Quantico and the Stennis Space Center (NASA) which also hosts the Navy's SWCC school, that the gate security has been subcontracted out to private industry. They allow anyone to drive onto Quantico now. I was there last year for a buddy of mine's retirement and thought it weird. I was stationed there back in the late 90's and if I recall, you had to have military ID to get on and the gates were guarded by Marines.

Something to think about....The Beirut Bombing of the USMC barracks! Possibly thought by some to be 'non-related' to the Ft. Hood incident in that the 'ground pounders' were armed....BUT NO AMMO!!

This is just 'part' of the fact finding in the aftermath:

Shortly after the barracks bombing, President Ronald Reagan appointed a military fact-finding committee headed by retired Admiral Robert L. J. Long to investigate the bombing. The commission's report found senior military officials responsible for security lapses and blamed the military chain of command for the disaster. It suggested that there might have been many fewer deaths if the barracks guards had carried loaded weapons and a barrier more substantial than the barbed wire the bomber drove over easily. The commission also noted that the "prevalent view" among U.S. commanders was that there was a direct link between the navy shelling of the Muslims at Suq-al-Garb and the truck bomb attack.[129][130]

Following the bombing and the realization that insurgents could deliver weapons of enormous yield with an ordinary truck or van, the presence of protective barriers (bollards) became common around critical government facilities in the United States and elsewhere, particularly Western civic targets situated overseas.[131]

An article in Foreign Policy titled "Lesson Unlearned" argues that the U.S. military intervention in the Lebanese Civil War has been downplayed or ignored in popular history - thus unlearned - and that lessons from Lebanon are "unlearned" as the U.S. militarily intervenes elsewhere in the world.[132]

I'm awfully proud that I served my time honorably but today.....it would be a very difficult decision if I were a young man considering to enlist!!

 

[orkan]

In the same way people say, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, don't blame the guns!" We shouldn't sit here and say, "This can be solved by adding more guns and removing the victim zone by providing everyone who, completed basic training, went to war, and potentially needs some serious therapy on how to re-enter society, a gun."

I'm not sure where I exactly said to take mentally ill people and PROVIDE them a gun. Where did I say that? I say that gun-free zones are idiotic, and you say I want to provide mentally unstable people with guns. Right... that MUST be the case, because to advocate that people should be allowed to protect themselves is just fucking insane right?

I'm simply saying that denying the 2nd Amendment rights of all people on base except for MP's is damn sure not the answer.

Place a CCW holder with the right mindset in any of the active shooter situations that has garnered media attention, and the situations would likely have been over far sooner with much less loss of life. The people initiating the shootings don't care about the goddamn laws preventing them from doing so, clearly. So why make it illegal for the rest of the SANE people to have their gun if they so choose?

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Second amendment rights say the right to bear arms . But it doesn't say that to handle situations like this is to fight back. Seeking cover and barricading yourself are other methods that should be taken rather than engage with a ccw. Trained personnel should be the one to handle active shooter
Situations not anyone with a ccw.

I'm all about killing bad people but I know to stay in my lane. There's a way to conduct such missions besides movement to contact.

Let authorities handle these things that which they are versed in


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[FatCow]

I'm not sure where I exactly said to take mentally ill people and PROVIDE them a gun. Where did I say that? I say that gun-free zones are idiotic, and you say I want to provide mentally unstable people with guns. Right... that MUST be the case, because to advocate that people should be allowed to protect themselves is just fucking insane right?

I'm simply saying that denying the 2nd Amendment rights of all people on base except for MP's is damn sure not the answer.

Place a CCW holder with the right mindset in any of the active shooter situations that has garnered media attention, and the situations would likely have been over far sooner with much less loss of life. The people initiating the shootings don't care about the goddamn laws preventing them from doing so, clearly. So why make it illegal for the rest of the SANE people to have their gun if they so choose?

You didn't "say" that. I did, because it's something a lot of people don't think about.

There is a difference between having a gun at the house (even on base) to protect family and have people who are not MP's actively carrying. Not to mention a bunch of federal contradictions and reciprocity issues that will effect civilian CHLs in other states. Put a few CHL holders there, even in the right mindset, doesn't make them cops. Nor does it make them qualified to stop the situation.

I have been a CHL years now. I train my mind as I train my gun. Hard and with brutal honesty. At the end of the day, if some dude starts shooting in the food court, my office, or around my family it's not my job to protect the sheep. It's a decision I made to protect my life and my family. I am not throwing away my one life because the man in the hallway whose getting gunned down didn't have the foresight to get a CHL. If there was something I could indeed do, that wouldn't put my life at overwhelming risk to save others or just requires immediate 'do or die' action, sure I'll do it. Other than that, I will hang back and wait for the cops who have numbers and experience doing this. After all, my life is safe.

I don't buy the whole, add more CHL's to the mix solves the issue. It wouldn't be the first time someone with a CHL in a high stress job, failing family life, and no one to turn to killed people / themselves either. The stories told in the military about other soldiers are some of the most depressing and saddest situations I have ever heard when it comes to family.

In any other situation, besides military bases, I am inclined to agree that CHLs would make for a safer place. However, until the United States Government starts taking seriously the red tape soldiers have to dive through to get the mental and emotional support systems they need I can't support the notion. As I said, it's a bandaid to a severed leg.

After hearing all the stories from my brother after his years of service, there is no way I could see it any other way.

 

[orkan]

Second amendment rights say the right to bear arms . But it doesn't say that to handle situations like this is to fight back. Seeking cover and barricading yourself are other methods that should be taken rather than engage with a ccw. Trained personnel should be the one to handle active shooter
Situations not anyone with a ccw.

I'm all about killing bad people but I know to stay in my lane. There's a way to conduct such missions besides movement to contact.

Let authorities handle these things that which they are versed in


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Again, more assumptions. I say protect ones own life, and you say actively pursue and engage an active shooter.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

I'm pretty sure I'm not talking out my ass when I say the general populace of military guys talk out their ass about how hardcore they are or how cold blooded they are or how they can take someone's life and still sleep at night. In pretty sure these same people also again don't give a shit about reporting sexual harassment or rape when they could or even stop it. And I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of guys with PTSD that have or have not been properly diagnosed and swept under the rug and are now the ones doing the shooting.


Am I still wrong to assume these same guys if given a weapon will do more good than harm? Am I still wrong to assume that there are retired guys from this era of war who have trouble coping in the civilian side and commit various crimes? Am i still wrong when I say that for every program the military has there is some loophole that gets pushed through?

I'm a realist and i don't trust the general military populace with a weapon because they can't even handle themselves at times for petty shit. Not to mention those heroes with a hero complex that Just want to kill and aren't necessarily there to promote peace.

Ccw doesn't belong on a military post . The environment from a mil post is different from a civilian populated area.


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[GhengisAhn175]

Ft Hood...again?!?

I do want to say that I say this with the understanding it takes to have great respect for life, handling firearms and a huge amount of responsibility . Soldiers need to focus on taking care of the orders appointed to him coming all the way up from congress and the president. They don't need to worry about active shooters that require a different approach than what their used to from overseas combat . Let authorities who's job it is handle that


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[HD1911]

I'm pretty sure I'm not talking out my ass when I say the general populace of military guys talk out their ass about how hardcore they are or how cold blooded they are or how they can take someone's life and still sleep at night. In pretty sure these same people also again don't give a shit about reporting sexual harassment or rape when they could or even stop it. And I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of guys with PTSD that have or have not been properly diagnosed and swept under the rug and are now the ones doing the shooting.


Am I still wrong to assume these same guys if given a weapon will do more good than harm? Am I still wrong to assume that there are retired guys from this era of war who have trouble coping in the civilian side and commit various crimes? Am i still wrong when I say that for every program the military has there is some loophole that gets pushed through?

I'm a realist and i don't trust the general military populace with a weapon because they can't even handle themselves at times for petty shit. Not to mention those heroes with a hero complex that Just want to kill and aren't necessarily there to promote peace.

Ccw doesn't belong on a military post . The environment from a mil post is different from a civilian populated area.


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Some folks, myself included, feel a Moral Obligation to fight against violence, in whatever shape and size it may come in, no matter what the cost.

While you would run and cower in fear and barricade yourself while an Active Shooter is on a rampage against unarmed and helpess people, I would run to it.

I cannot say much more without going into a Personal Attack on you.... so I'll be clear: I would sleep much better at night knowing I tried to fight against an Armed Evil Man Hellbent on taking innocent Lives, than to Hide and Cry like a Little Fucking Coward, hoping someone else would protect me.

I would rather die trying to end the threat, than to live with knowing I could have possibly altered and potentially minimized his damage, but was too cowardly to do anything about it.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Hd1911 that's what I'm taking about . There's ppl like you and I agree with what you're saying. I too would go to an active shooter and try to stop him but that's where the problem is.. We are seeking it out. That's the hero complex which can bring too much complexity into a situation that law enforcement doesn't need.

Since we both acknowledge that there are people that would do this for courageous reasons there are also people that would do it for other reasons. You couldn't walk into any Military unit and not swing a bat and hit someone who has problems That stem deeper than others. Then you wouldn't have issues like these now would we?

I would say senior NCOs and up should/may carry a duty weapon but not everyone. Someone evaluated that.


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[GhengisAhn175]

Besides the complexities for people taking justice into their own hands, think about these:

1. How are you going to pid the suspect?
2. Are you tied in to the police band and can monitor live updates on all the callers? I hope the plan wasn't to listen to twitter and Facebook because that shit is late and inaccurate.
3. If you come across another soldier who has a gun are you going to follow stateside roe and wait until the last second to pull the trigger or assume he's the gunman?
4. Do you think said soldier has the proper training and right mindset to go out and look for the active shooter such as yourself?
5. Are you getting trained and paid to handle such situations? If so then swat wants you because they're all about taking lives with their asses on the line making split second big risk decisions.


This is the same thing I tell my hot headed soldiers that say if this happened at my base they would go kill that mother fucker. The same hot headed soldiers that aren't trained in stateside roe but combat roe.

There has to be control here and every swinging dick doesn't need a gun on post.


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[FatCow]

Besides the complexities for people taking justice into their own hands, think about these:

1. How are you going to pid the suspect?
2. Are you tied in to the police band and can monitor live updates on all the callers? I hope the plan wasn't to listen to twitter and Facebook because that shit is late and inaccurate.
3. If you come across another soldier who has a gun are you going to follow stateside roe and wait until the last second to pull the trigger or assume he's the gunman?
4. Do you think said soldier has the proper training and right mindset to go out and look for the active shooter such as yourself?
5. Are you getting trained and paid to handle such situations? If so then swat wants you because they're all about taking lives with their asses on the line making split second big risk decisions.


This is the same thing I tell my hot headed soldiers that say if this happened at my base they would go kill that mother fucker. The same hot headed soldiers that aren't trained in stateside roe but combat roe.

There has to be control here and every swinging dick doesn't need a gun on post.


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Word. No real time communication, no LEO experience, no form of official recognition, if other CHLs are around and no one knows each other (or no one trusts each other) it can make the emergency response much slower. It can also get people shot, killed and/or spur lawsuits. Many people have a hero complex. Many times more have they paid the price for it too.

In our office my CHL buddy and I have "guard points" setup in key areas in case of an active shooter. This would protect the majority of the office with a wicked V pattern crossfire and provide us adequate cover. In the food court.. lol. So many "what ifs," especially with all the police around.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

There's just different variables on post vs off post.. Period

I support ccw on a civilian sector wholeheartedly


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[Sharpsman]

I do want to say that I say this with the understanding it takes to have great respect for life, handling firearms and a huge amount of responsibility . Soldiers need to focus on taking care of the orders appointed to him coming all the way up from congress and the president. They don't need to worry about active shooters that require a different approach than what their used to from overseas combat . Let authorities who's job it is handle that


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"Let authorities who's job it is handle that"

For some odd reason....THAT approach doesn't seem to be working to well!!

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Ft Hood...again?!?

You guys gotta give Leo more credit... Everyone thinks they can do everyone else's job better for some reason.

There's also the idea that if there's enough security or what not then there will be no more tragedies period. That's a laughable thought -.-.. Said no terrorizer ever!

Part of my job is to find security
Flaws and make them better and take Lesser evil risks... There's no perfect fix for shit like this

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[Cobracutter]

Second amendment rights say the right to bear arms . But it doesn't say that to handle situations like this is to fight back. Seeking cover and barricading yourself are other methods that should be taken rather than engage with a ccw. Trained personnel should be the one to handle active shooter
Situations not anyone with a ccw.

I'm all about killing bad people but I know to stay in my lane. There's a way to conduct such missions besides movement to contact.

Let authorities handle these things that which they are versed in


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You sound like a pussy. Like a scared little pussy that would rather hide and cower than face danger.

People like you are why we have pussy leaders and pussy politicans who have the same mindset. They aren't willing to do what it takes to protect others. They speak that rah rah bullshit, but when the chips are down, they are no where to be found.

And where do you propose these Trained Personnel should stage? Trained personal were on site at VA Tech, and decided to wait......More people died. Trained personal were on the navy yard, too bad approx 10 people were already dead or fatally wounded before the first responder made it on site. Ft hood, same fucking deal. Pretty much Every Mass shooting with heavy casualties, IS JUST FUCKING THAT beacuse when the shit is going down, no one at ground zero has the means to fight.

Your logic is no different than saying CCW or fuck... personal ownership of guns is not needed. I mean we have police after all. Why the fuck would anyone need to own a gun when highly trained (laughable at best) personal are only 8 or 15 or 45 minutes away.

 

[Cobracutter]

Besides the complexities for people taking justice into their own hands, think about these:

1. How are you going to pid the suspect?
2. Are you tied in to the police band and can monitor live updates on all the callers? I hope the plan wasn't to listen to twitter and Facebook because that shit is late and inaccurate.
3. If you come across another soldier who has a gun are you going to follow stateside roe and wait until the last second to pull the trigger or assume he's the gunman?
4. Do you think said soldier has the proper training and right mindset to go out and look for the active shooter such as yourself?
5. Are you getting trained and paid to handle such situations? If so then swat wants you because they're all about taking lives with their asses on the line making split second big risk decisions.


This is the same thing I tell my hot headed soldiers that say if this happened at my base they would go kill that mother fucker. The same hot headed soldiers that aren't trained in stateside roe but combat roe.

There has to be control here and every swinging dick doesn't need a gun on post.


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All I hear is blah blah blah........I'm a bitch.

How about when shit goes south, right fucking now you eliminate the threat. Or you die trying. Its that fucking simple.

When someone is shooting at you, all that little bullshit you are talking goes out the window. How many firefights have you been in?

I feel sorry for the troops that serve under you. Complete lack of common sense and sense of reality.... poor fucking kids.

 

[Cobracutter]

I do want to say that I say this with the understanding it takes to have great respect for life, handling firearms and a huge amount of responsibility . Soldiers need to focus on taking care of the orders appointed to him coming all the way up from congress and the president. They don't need to worry about active shooters that require a different approach than what their used to from overseas combat . Let authorities who's job it is handle that


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So you think the 2nd Amendment is only applicable to highly trained (by whose fucking definition by the way?) personal? You understand how fucking stupid you sound right?

 

[Cobracutter]

You guys gotta give Leo more credit... Everyone thinks they can do everyone else's job better for some reason.

There's also the idea that if there's enough security or what not then there will be no more tragedies period. That's a laughable thought -.-.. Said no terrorizer ever!

Part of my job is to find security
Flaws and make them better and take Lesser evil risks... There's no perfect fix for shit like this

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Let me guess, your a cop and only highly trained cops are trained to deal with such complex cop matters.


Soldiers aren't trained to shoot people in the back or when they turn away. These Highly Trained personal are : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YofAjUe7rww

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Actually cobra I have 5 years in sof experience, in particular to direct action raids. Before you call me a pussy read what I'm saying when i state that not everyone thinks like you do.

Calling me out on my reputation is a moot point. I'm just saying hot headed guys like you don't need to looking for a gun fight.


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[Cobracutter]

1/75th? My best friend in the entire world was a sniper in A co 2/75 for 5 years. If he read your bullshit he would call you a pussy as well. Thank you for your service but you still sound like a fag. Reminds me of the SEAL who became a woman. Kristin Beck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NCO's and Officers like you ARE the problem. You lack common sense and a grasp of reality. What you are saying is, that people don't have the inherient right to self protection and self preservation. What you fail to understand is, that is a keystone to freedom.

In the real world, shit goes down and you don't get to pick the time or the playing field. You think those people walking to get coffee in the Atrium at the Navy Yard in bld 197 knew what was coming? 197 is a SECURE building, you can't even take phones and cameras in there. Do yourself a favor and look at google earth, and the far bottom left building on the Yard, is 197 (right in front of the sail). Its about 3-4 stories tall and longer than a football field. If someone starts shooting on one end, how long will it take security to get there? Do they have to go retrieve armor and long guns? Do they have to stage up? Are they waiting for backup?

Meanwhile, people are being cut down and hunted down like fucking dogs. The last thing through their mind was probally, where the fuck is security. Seconds turn into minutes which turn into days. Do those people not deserve the right to defend themselves? Are their lives not as valuable as the armed police and guards on base? Are they not as valuable as the SES/Flag officers who have a PSD?

That is what you are saying.......that they don't have a right to defend themselves. To this I say fuck you, your an idiot.

 

[KYpatriot]

I think concealed carry should be allowed on base because self defense is a fundamental natural right. In every combat situation we have ever fought the individual always had the right to defend themselves from the enemy or hostile action regardless of standing roe. If you attempt to judge the qualifications of our military members before self-righteously allowing or disallowing them to DEFEND THEMSELVES the same way they could off base then you had better check your arrogance at the door. They aren't children, you aren't their father, and nobody on this forum has the right to tell them to suck it up and wait for their saviors in blue to show up. The only way this situation is different than off base is that these men and women are made sitting ducks by their commanders. I don't know who the hell you people think you are to order these people to go armed in harms way for their country but not for themselves and their families. These men and women are the reason the Constitution lives, and we limit their freedoms under that document for mission necessity ONLY. This paternalistic "protect them from themselves" mentality is not only foreign but completely hostile to the document we swore to support and defend, and those that hold that opinion have completely and utterly missed the entire point of their service.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Cobra check yourself please since I'm offering you the same respect to voice your opinion.

Second, I think seniors should have ccw, not everyone.
You talk all this smack to me when I'm not the enemy or the guy shooting up. I'm not advocating his actions at all.

I understand that this subject is touchy to people and there's always going to be multiple sides but don't treat me like the enemy. I'm just offering an opinion like I have the right to.


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[Cobracutter]

Senior what, NCO's? Senior Citizens? Senior Officers (Now thats funny)

So now only those E-7 and above have the right to self defense? Please enlighten us to how you come to this calculation..........



Your words are the enemy to self determination and freedom. What you fail to realize is your "side" goes against the very foundations of both the 2A and natural rights of man. You are as much of an enemy to the 2A as the far left is.

 

[orkan]

Senior what, NCO's? Senior Citizens? Senior Officers (Now thats funny)

So now only those E-7 and above have the right to self defense? Please enlighten us to how you come to this calculation..........



Your words are the enemy to self determination and freedom. What you fail to realize is your "side" goes against the very foundations of both the 2A and natural rights of man. You are as much of an enemy to the 2A as the far left is.

Goddamn right.

It is by these methods, under the guise of "safety" that free people are enslaved. The destruction of our rights and the compromising of our freedom is always perpetrated in the name of "safety." People are all too comfortable with the illusion of safety, and take no personal responsibility for their own. Then, as they understand their illusion, they want to ensure everyone else around them are as incapable of defending themselves as they are by choice.

It's fucking insane is what it is. ... and ghengis, you don't even comprehend the gravity of your ideology, openly defining that SOME should have the "right" but others should not, based on their status in society. If there's a more un-American mind set... I don't know what the fuck it is.

 

[DetroitRearView]

Today's Military "leadership" are so out of touch with the foundations of Freedom and the Constitution! I am retired 22 years LEO and have always believed strongly that the 2nd amendment simply clarifies our God given right of self determination. I carried before during and after my cop years, and no I did not fly a desk!

I am, have been and forever shall be sick to death of self serving political hacks in every arena.

I don't believe that people should be required to pass a ccw course to carry, period. What you think the bad guys do? I was a firearms instructor in a major metro area and understand the more you train the better for everyone...but should not required by law. Same for seat belts, helmet laws, on and on.

Right now, if someone broke our door down my wife has the skills/mindset and available tools to take care of the intruder.

It just plain ridiculous that our Military cannot carry on base, just think if we could ask General George Washington what he would do with the FT. Hood anti-gun position...

Yes, this is a "different era" BUT basic survival is the same. I don't care where I am - I will not allow some dirt bag victimize innocents - not because of my career, I chose my career because of my convictions. And yes, beware my 87 year old mother just may kill someone from her wheelchair!

Oh, yes...my ex mil children are well adjusted citizens, perhaps it has more to do with personal values, core beliefs and a steadfast moral compass.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

So the fact that the soldier that went on a rampage had PTSD issues and the catalyst that started this has nothing to do with it right? The same hot headed soldier who the other day people didn't know about ?the same soldier who served
Alongside others? The same soldier who wasn't taken care of properly and vented out with violence of a weapon?

The moment he picked up a gun and started shooting people everyone thinks the right answer is to kill him but you guys also complain about not taking care of the deeper issues like "take better care of our troops"


Weren't the other mil related shootings from broken service members?

How did these get by unvoiced
And unnoticed yet everyone wants to put a bandaid on this problem by taking his life by others with a ccw? What about taking care of the root of the problem so you can engage such issues without loss of life or wait until he does something terrible?

Why does everyone want to be quick to the trigger? God forbid any of you put into positions to defend anyone if you think killing is the only answer.

You think Adam Lanza was the wrong doer or everyone else who failed him and let him do what he did at sandy? How about be a real leader and take care of your troops instead of let them fly off the handle and tell everyone they can be a vigilante ?

How about ccw for senior NCOs or officers who are appointed members in the service who are probably better at handling situations like these ?

Can you guys even imagine past the fact that if someone had a ccw on post they could have stopped him earlier ? Look at the other shit you have worry about .

Anyone can get a ccw too easily. That doesn't give anyone the right to be a self appointed cop to stop active shooters because they'll be putting more at risk.

Look at what soldiers are posting and saying about this. They'll go out to kill an active shooter. What kind of attitude is that? You guys really can't see an accident waiting to happen with this?

Does this make the Leo or any alphabet agency worthless if all we need is someone with a ccw? Because that seems to be the general answer. Fuck cops we can handle this ourselves.


You guys that serve would be fuckin liars if you haven't seen a sharp, eo, PTSD or shit swept under a rug on a daily basis. Troops get away with it way too easily so yeah forgive me if I think there are those among us that shouldn't be in the military or have a weapon period.

Only competent people should have a ccw. Not everyone and that includes people in uniform


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[MosesTheTank]

As much as I know many LEOs would like to be the first on the scene this is absolutely impossible without the ability to time travel. They are called to action by people who are already there. I have plenty of experience with violence and tragedy that eventually involved LEOs. More often than not by the time an LEO arrived they were trying to piece together a bit of history about actors who had long left the scene.

I am disgusted by all the people I hear claiming that almost no one is able to respond in a meaningful way during a random act of violence unless they have gone through special training at Star Fleet Academy. This is absolute bullshit. I have been tested and seen many others tested with violence and it has always brought a smile and warm feeling to see someone that I might otherwise think would get crushed rise to the occasion and choose to not be a victim. But whether or not they are able to succeed is entirely beside the point. Whether or not they fall over and shit their pants is beside the point. The point is that they have the right to defend themselves. That right does not come from status, rank, or graduating from ninja school, it exists because we are human beings. To deny that this is a fundamental human right, much less attempt to strip it, is putrid.

 

[Shoottothrill]

Cobracutter I agree with all your 100%.

GhengisAhn175 Every person has the right and obligation to protect themselves with whatever force is necessary, including deadly force. We do not need to ask for permission whether we are civilians or military personal. I thank you for your service, but you sir are everything that is wrong with this country right now. I can't believe that a Special Forces Soldier has this attitude. Please if you are still active duty retire immediately before you infect any other intelligent people with your retarded liberal, bullshit thought processes. The Police will never ever, ever be there at the moment violence starts. It always takes precious minutes for them to arrive and by then several people will have lost their lives or been seriously injured. These gun free zones are killing people. Armed American citizens, whether they are military or not could have stopped this guy or at least distracted him enough with their own gunfire to save many lives at Fort Hood, on both occasions, at Sandy Hook, at the Naval Yard, and at the movie theater. To see it any other way is un-American and beyond stupid. People who think like you are getting Americans killed.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

That's cool... And I just said ccw on post is different than off post. There are other reasons for this shit..

I'm done on this thread I guess there's only 1 right answer
For Everything


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[DetroitRearView]

I cannot tell you the number of times armed people rescued innocent victims before we "the cops" arrived. GhengisAhn175, perhaps someone will save your life someday because they valued you and your family's lives more that some retard in society blasting away in a crowded McDonald's.

Yes, please do retire, you are completely devoid of reality. Europe, perhaps England would be a better place for you.

 

[EventHorizon]

So the fact that the soldier that went on a rampage had PTSD issues and the catalyst that started this has nothing to do with it right? The same hot headed soldier who the other day people didn't know about ?the same soldier who served
Alongside others? The same soldier who wasn't taken care of properly and vented out with violence of a weapon?

The moment he picked up a gun and started shooting people everyone thinks the right answer is to kill him but you guys also complain about not taking care of the deeper issues like "take better care of our troops"


Weren't the other mil related shootings from broken service members?

How did these get by unvoiced
And unnoticed yet everyone wants to put a bandaid on this problem by taking his life by others with a ccw? What about taking care of the root of the problem so you can engage such issues without loss of life or wait until he does something terrible?

Why does everyone want to be quick to the trigger? God forbid any of you put into positions to defend anyone if you think killing is the only answer.

You think Adam Lanza was the wrong doer or everyone else who failed him and let him do what he did at sandy? How about be a real leader and take care of your troops instead of let them fly off the handle and tell everyone they can be a vigilante ?

How about ccw for senior NCOs or officers who are appointed members in the service who are probably better at handling situations like these ?

Can you guys even imagine past the fact that if someone had a ccw on post they could have stopped him earlier ? Look at the other shit you have worry about .

Anyone can get a ccw too easily. That doesn't give anyone the right to be a self appointed cop to stop active shooters because they'll be putting more at risk.

Look at what soldiers are posting and saying about this. They'll go out to kill an active shooter. What kind of attitude is that? You guys really can't see an accident waiting to happen with this?

Does this make the Leo or any alphabet agency worthless if all we need is someone with a ccw? Because that seems to be the general answer. Fuck cops we can handle this ourselves.


You guys that serve would be fuckin liars if you haven't seen a sharp, eo, PTSD or shit swept under a rug on a daily basis. Troops get away with it way too easily so yeah forgive me if I think there are those among us that shouldn't be in the military or have a weapon period.

Only competent people should have a ccw. Not everyone and that includes people in uniform


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If I understand your main points then it's true and reasonable to demand those who are afflicted with mental disorders be treated and not ignored or poorly served lest they harm themselves and others. It's also true that those with mental disorders that make them most prone to violence be prevented from having firearms. However, your post ignores the simple fact - once those people do have weapons (of any sort) and are committed and engaged in using them against innocents they have lost the status of 'ill' and are now 'threat'. If I were the target of such as person, however much I would commiserate with thier condition, I would try my damndest to kill them before they killed me or others.

Violence is not a solution to the problem you highlight, it's the means of staying alive for others when the problem has passed solving for the afflicted or failed individual.

 

[FatCow]

Huh. Well. This thread took a shit in the woods didn't it. Meh, I guess once this turned from civil discourse to name calling (that was pathetic and childish I might add); to "god given" (when's he coming back again?); to soldiers don't shoot their own in the back and cover it up (then get busted for failing at PR); Nor do they rape and murder families in war zones; and then to thanking someone for service while in the same breath condemning him without anything more than a disagreement over the internet, it's about time to unfollow this shameful shit.

At the end of the day, whatever your views are on 2A and carry, they are irrelevant until the United States Government decides to take seriously the emotional and mental support of the modern war fighter. Science and technology has come a long way and we have invested a lot of it in the technology of killing. However, not nearly enough has been spent in repairing our wounded from the scars they suffer. In the same way you can't fix a gunshot wound with a band-aid, you can't solve this problem with guns. Fire vs. fire makes fire. We need some water much like this damn thread. The way this conversation went sour is the same way our nation will never be great again.

To each their own gentlemen, my best to the victims of Ft. Hood. Good night, I am done here.

EDIT: Fyi, due to the childish conduct of some responses, I can't respond to certain people due to the ignore feature being used. I am an adult and choose to only interact with adults. This won't be undone as I don't take trolls off my list.

 

[Dogtown]

One thing that's always concerned me about this issue is as a LEO or security officer responding to an active shooter: how do you differentiate between the actual threat and the guy(s) with the CCW?

Knowing just how confusing and stressful combat is, it seems there's a pretty good chance for even the most well intentioned individual to end up in the crosshairs of a security officer responding. On top of that, since there's no guarantee that an individual with a CCW is particularly well trained or proficient with their firearm (I know some who take it seriously and others who I don't trust with a squirt gun), who's responsible if that individual is negligent in their actions, such as mistakenly engaging the wrong person or injuring or killing bystanders?

 

[Cobracutter]

So the fact that the soldier that went on a rampage had PTSD issues and the catalyst that started this has nothing to do with it right? The same hot headed soldier who the other day people didn't know about ?the same soldier who served
Alongside others? The same soldier who wasn't taken care of properly and vented out with violence of a weapon?

The moment he picked up a gun and started shooting people everyone thinks the right answer is to kill him but you guys also complain about not taking care of the deeper issues like "take better care of our troops"


Weren't the other mil related shootings from broken service members?

How did these get by unvoiced
And unnoticed yet everyone wants to put a bandaid on this problem by taking his life by others with a ccw? What about taking care of the root of the problem so you can engage such issues without loss of life or wait until he does something terrible?

Why does everyone want to be quick to the trigger? God forbid any of you put into positions to defend anyone if you think killing is the only answer.

You think Adam Lanza was the wrong doer or everyone else who failed him and let him do what he did at sandy? How about be a real leader and take care of your troops instead of let them fly off the handle and tell everyone they can be a vigilante ?

How about ccw for senior NCOs or officers who are appointed members in the service who are probably better at handling situations like these ?

Can you guys even imagine past the fact that if someone had a ccw on post they could have stopped him earlier ? Look at the other shit you have worry about .

Anyone can get a ccw too easily. That doesn't give anyone the right to be a self appointed cop to stop active shooters because they'll be putting more at risk.

Look at what soldiers are posting and saying about this. They'll go out to kill an active shooter. What kind of attitude is that? You guys really can't see an accident waiting to happen with this?

Does this make the Leo or any alphabet agency worthless if all we need is someone with a ccw? Because that seems to be the general answer. Fuck cops we can handle this ourselves.


You guys that serve would be fuckin liars if you haven't seen a sharp, eo, PTSD or shit swept under a rug on a daily basis. Troops get away with it way too easily so yeah forgive me if I think there are those among us that shouldn't be in the military or have a weapon period.

Only competent people should have a ccw. Not everyone and that includes people in uniform


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Un fucking believable....... How can you be this obtuse? Lets take a look at your greatest gem of logical fallacy


1. What does the root cause have to do with ANYTHING in a violent encounter. If some retard starts dropping fists into your wife or daughters face, are you going to say " WHOOOOAAAA KIND SIR, WHAT IS THIS REASON FOR WAGING VIOLENCE AGAINST THIS YOUNG LADY?" No different than if someone starts beating the shit out of you. You stop and/or eliminate the threat. YOU should know this better than anyone. Whatever happened that lead up to this, is INCONSEQUENTAL. Do you stop in the middle of a firefight and try to ask ahckmed why he hates America, as hes dumping rounds into your teammates? You are an unrealistic person. Staying alive is pretty much the main goal for everyone who wakes up.

2. The second he uses deadly force against anyone that isn't just justified, He needs to be put down. It doesnt matters what the fuck caused it, the threat needs to be eliminated. How does his PTSD now trump the right of some stranger to live? Once again, you sound like a moron.

3.The fact is, There is NOTHING we can do to stop crazy people. All the security and training in the world is not going to stop someone capable and determined. You say you look for security vulnribilities as part of you job. YOU then understand, that someone with a bit of creativity can take the most secure place and turn it into a fucking shooting gallery. THE ONLY THING that can stop or minimize the loss of life is equal force. Since equal force by Police./ Security/ect cannot be everywhere at once.... the only logical awsner is for those would be victims to protect themselves. In every instance or shooting, A couple or single people carrying could have stopped or atleast minimized the damage these fuckers do. How is that not worth it?

4. Once again, how the fuck did you make it to regiment? You sound like a pussy. Your job is to kill/capture people for a living, what part of this do you not understand? When someone uses deadly force against innocents, all right to life is surrendered. Doesn't matter what affliction or set up circumstances got them to this point, they need to be nuetralized. When someone is shooting at you, asking for a Tea Party to talk about the issues usualy does not happen.

5. So now Lanza is just a poor victium of his circumstances? Yea I guess Charles Manson was too since he was pedoed as a child. Poor Hitler was picked on at das playground when he was a young lad, so that absolves him from leading the almost extinction of a race/religion........Once again, I am trying to grasp how someone can be so stupid.

6. Please explain to me how an Officer or NCO is better at handling a defensive situation. Please also explain how they can be everywhere at once? What if its the weekend and the only people on duty are E4 and bellow. CQ and a runner and a couple people hanging out around HQ doing work. Gunman comes in and starts shooting Joes........OH SHIT , I guess these poor soldiers don't get the right to live beacuse there is no NCO or Officer present. I feel real pain for any solider that has to serve under you, much less around you.

7. Anyone can get CCW easy? Tell that to all the soldiers at bases in CA, MD, DC, NJ, NY,ect. Once again, you think only Cops can handle these situations...........Let me give you a hint... Most cops are no different than you or me. IN fact, You or me(well not you), likely have a much higher IQ, weapons handling and combat experince. The risk is, doing nothing. Its fucking morons like you that create this shelter in place bullshit, where people just wait around to get slaughtered. Its no different then the 50's era hide under your desk, it will stop a nuke bullshit. It allows them to totaly ignore or give people the right to defend themselves, by prentedning this will somehow save them. ALL of these shooting, have been in enviroments where liberals and MORON Officals have set the ground rules.... ANd these shootings still happen. Is that not a little bit telling that what you think DOES NOT FUCKING WORK.

8. It brings some warmth to my heart to hear people willing to defend each other from evil. Those same soldiers you are shitting on, Vollenterred, went through tough training and are doing a job MOST Americans couldnt do even if they wanted. You discredit them and their service when you belittle them. As said they are not children, Leaders like you are the problem.

9. Last time I checked, ALL AGENCY CHARTERS are not to stop active shooters. Notice by the time "they" get there, everyone is already dead. Yea..... Awesome job. My moms dead but atleast we had trained people 30 minutes away.....

10. VAST majority of PTSD is bullshit. People scaming the system for a check or to get out of work or trouble. Spare me the victim routine. Its LEADERS who sweep the shit under the rug. Its the same leaders who write this bone head policy, that instead of starting seperation papers for this shitbag, just shuffle him off to another post to be somebody else problem. That same CDR, prolly thinks only officers should be able to carry guns.

11. The 2A does not have a training clause. Who decides who is competent? Who decides what training is required?

I am done in here. This guy makes my fucking blood boil and its people like him that are the reason I decided to not make a career out of the military. It only takes a few bad apples in leadship to ruin an organization. You sound like one that is rotten to the core.

 

[Cobracutter]

One thing that's always concerned me about this issue is as a LEO or security officer responding to an active shooter: how do you differentiate between the actual threat and the guy(s) with the CCW?

Knowing just how confusing and stressful combat is, it seems there's a pretty good chance for even the most well intentioned individual to end up in the crosshairs of a security officer responding. On top of that, since there's no guarantee that an individual with a CCW is particularly well trained or proficient with their firearm (I know some who take it seriously and others who I don't trust with a squirt gun), who's responsible if that individual is negligent in their actions, such as mistakenly engaging the wrong person or injuring or killing bystanders?

Who cares. It comes down to priorities.

What is more important, stoping someone about to kill you, or worrying if someone might mistake you later?

Being dead does not make you right.

Stop the imediate threat, and go from there. Not everything is a win/win scenario and sometimes you got to find the best peice of the shit sandwich to take a bite. We play the cards we are delt or we are guarenteed to lose.

 

[Cobracutter]

Huh. Well. This thread took a shit in the woods didn't it. Meh, I guess once this turned from civil discourse to name calling (that was pathetic and childish I might add); to "god given" (when's he coming back again?); to soldiers don't shoot their own in the back and cover it up (then get busted for failing at PR); Nor do they rape and murder families in war zones; and then to thanking someone for service while in the same breath condemning him without anything more than a disagreement over the internet, it's about time to unfollow this shameful shit.

At the end of the day, whatever your views are on 2A and carry, they are irrelevant until the United States Government decides to take seriously the emotional and mental support of the modern war fighter. Science and technology has come a long way and we have invested a lot of it in the technology of killing. However, not nearly enough has been spent in repairing our wounded from the scars they suffer. In the same way you can't fix a gunshot wound with a band-aid, you can't solve this problem with guns. Fire vs. fire makes fire. We need some water much like this damn thread. The way this conversation went sour is the same way our nation will never be great again.

To each their own gentlemen, my best to the victims of Ft. Hood. Good night, I am done here.

Hey sunshine.......At the end of the day, the governments stance on the emotial and metal support of the warfighter is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY down on the list after Peoples right to life.

Yea we are goinig to solve the worlds problem with hugs and kisses....................sounds familiar?

 

[shooterfpga]

Im not sure how they train police but I know how we train in the army. We have a lot of shoot dont shoot scenarios, sop, roe, etc. Half of that goes into not shooting everyone that has a weapon because they may not even be a threat. So if you think that if you give us the ability to protect ourselves on post were all gonna go shoot anyone up youre wrong. If anything we have the experiance and training needed that you want us to have when you talk about limiting rights for ccws to trained professionals. We are soldiers and professionals.

Now, onto the parts about letting law enforcement handle it. My mos is not mp, im in combat arms but we train and learn a lot of law enforcement techniques for arresting, detaining and subduing a suspect with and without armed cover. We also cross train with local law enforcement and three letter agencys on our tactics and honestly nothing ive seen from them is new or different from our doctrine. Maybe back in the day, read 70s they were the forefront on tactics for detaining people but today were the ones making them aware and up to date on new shit. They use our interrogation robots, our vehicles, our weapons, our doctrine. You want us to wait for local law enforcement but by the time they get there its usually already over. Sound familiar? Thats because civilians who deal with civilian law enforcement already cry this every day. Citizens are tired of getting mowed down while waiting for law enforcement so they became proactive. We need to do the same. We already know what to do with active shooters, now let us do our job. Cobratcutter is pretty much dead on.

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[5RWill]

Ft Hood...again?!?

You guys gotta give Leo more credit... Everyone thinks they can do everyone else's job better for some reason.

There's also the idea that if there's enough security or what not then there will be no more tragedies period. That's a laughable thought -.-.. Said no terrorizer ever!

Part of my job is to find security
Flaws and make them better and take Lesser evil risks... There's no perfect fix for shit like this

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I don't think anyone is "not giving Leo credit" I think the harsh reality of most shootings is that Leo can't teleport there in a tenth of a second. So to a degree and from a standpoint warranting someone's safety on that matter is well to put it lightly completely redundant. This is just my perspective but I myself in the midst of being shot at or having life threatening harm approach me, don't want a promise of protection, I want my own means of protection.

I do get the mental health issue here. It's something that is severely disregarded in this country on a healthcare level. Hell i work in it. That said carrying on base should be legal. Gun free zones are and will continue to be target zones for the mentally insane, criminally insane, etc. There is no 100% fix to this as you said.


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[BozFour]

My thoughts on the situation are simple, when I am on post I have a firearm really close. With that said if I can do ANYTHING to stop the active shooter, I will. I love my life, wife, and country and every other person being hosed down does to. So I would like to afford them the opportunity to live on by trying to neutralize the threat. If the cops accidentally kill me then name a high school after me and fucking move on. It’s not rocket science, anyone who has been shot at, in combat or even close knows the sounds, knows how to react and knows to immediately engage the shooter. Let me give you a brief example of how the book was changed. When Columbine went down the cops circled the building and waited on SWAT, 5 hours later the school was cleared. My wife is AF and I am Army, unbelievably the AF trains their LEO types to not wait on shit and immediately go kill the shooter in an active shooter scenario. But what if by some miracle someone has already done it and doesn’t have to wait for the cops to figure out wtf is going on. I have heard the bands go nuts with wrong information, what does the shooter look like? He ummmm…. Has some weird ass acu camo that doesn’t hide his fucking ass at all on. Great so does 100000000 other people. I digress, cobra thank you for my daily cheer up session. BTW LEO has my repsect my wife is AF cop.
Boz

 

[Cobracutter]

My thoughts on the situation are simple, when I am on post I have a firearm really close. With that said if I can do ANYTHING to stop the active shooter, I will. I love my life, wife, and country and every other person being hosed down does to. So I would like to afford them the opportunity to live on by trying to neutralize the threat. If the cops accidentally kill me then name a high school after me and fucking move on. It’s not rocket science, anyone who has been shot at, in combat or even close knows the sounds, knows how to react and knows to immediately engage the shooter. Let me give you a brief example of how the book was changed. When Columbine went down the cops circled the building and waited on SWAT, 5 hours later the school was cleared. My wife is AF and I am Army, unbelievably the AF trains their LEO types to not wait on shit and immediately go kill the shooter in an active shooter scenario. But what if by some miracle someone has already done it and doesn’t have to wait for the cops to figure out wtf is going on. I have heard the bands go nuts with wrong information, what does the shooter look like? He ummmm…. Has some weird ass acu camo that doesn’t hide his fucking ass at all on. Great so does 100000000 other people. I digress, cobra thank you for my daily cheer up session. BTW LEO has my repsect my wife is AF cop.
Boz

GolfClap

 

[BozFour]

GolfClap

I was hoping for a non sarcastic clap but I guess I can accept that....

 

[pizzamanny]

Not at all what my experience has been.

I don't think the answer is to have ppl carry. Like another poster said, service members and guns are a job not a hobby . Y'all that serve know especially if you're not in a combat send mos you hardly get to shoot a weapon .. Even though your supposed to qualify with it every year . Service members most of the times don't.


That's a shame on its own..

We have mp's that can handle these situations because they're trained to. They can't be everywhere but the same logic applies for people with concealed carry.

Let's be honest most soldiers are all talk about shooting and thinking they have the mental capacity to kill. These are also the same people that let harassment and rape go unreported


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[Cobracutter]

I was hoping for a non sarcastic clap but I guess I can accept that....

no sarchasim at all...i agree with you 100%

 

[BozFour]

no sarchasim at all...i agree with you 100%

For some reason I had always associated golf clap with sarcasm.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Well this is really moot because the DoD has a stated policy since 1992 on who can carry and who cannot. I can say I don't agree with it. However, a solider has no choice but to follow this policy. It is us who can vote for people that can make the DoD change it's rules. BTW, this was done under Bush Sr. and hasn't been changed since.

Here's the DoD's policy-

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf

 

[Cobracutter]

Well this is really moot because the DoD has a stated policy since 1992 on who can carry and who cannot. I can say I don't agree with it. However, a solider has no choice but to follow this policy. It is us who can vote for people that can make the DoD change it's rules. BTW, this was done under Bush Sr. and hasn't been changed since.

Here's the DoD's policy-

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf

Thanks CPT Obvious. Its not like we have spent the last 2 days discussing the STUPIDITY of that exact order..........

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Thanks CPT Obvious. Its not like we have spent the last 2 days discussing the STUPIDITY of that exact order..........

Oh really? Because it only looks like a bitch fest. There has been nothing positive about how you would go about changing the DoD policy and make it safer for future soldiers. Just blah blah blah……same stupid conversation that always comes up when there is a shooting in a gun free zone.

 

[Cobracutter]

Oh really? Because it only looks like a bitch fest. There has been nothing positive about how you would go about changing the DoD policy and make it safer for future soldiers. Just blah blah blah……same stupid conversation that always comes up when there is a shooting in a gun free zone.

Oh so now I can change DOD policy? I guess I can repeal the NFA and introduce congressional term limits while I'm at it. Shit, Why Didn't I think of that?

 

[orkan]

I am done in here. This guy makes my fucking blood boil and its people like him that are the reason I decided to not make a career out of the military. It only takes a few bad apples in leadship to ruin an organization. You sound like one that is rotten to the core.

Goddamn RIGHT! I'm past the point of even wanting to SPEAK to people that think like that anymore. I don't believe I'd piss on them if they were on fire. I think I'd probably pull up a lawn chair and a bratwurst. They will not talk us out of our views, and we will goddamn sure not be able to talk them out of theirs... so it's pointless to even speak to the dumbasses. The only thing we need to concern ourselves with is how to BEAT them and ensure their thinking doesn't survive.