FTF Garand - Help

H

hrfunk

Sergeant
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Minuteman
Apr 18, 2010
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Ohio
#1
I recently added. CMP M1 Garand to my stable. The rifle is a joy to shoot, and it's wonderfully accurate, but I'm having consistent failures to feed on the 7th round from the clip. The following is a detailed description I posted on another forum. I thought I'd post it here too. I would appreciate any advice from those of you who are familiar with the M1:

Ok, after quite a bit of fiddling around, here is what I think is going on. This is based on slowly cycling cartridges through the action, and observing how they move. Rounds 1 through 6 cycle properly from the clip into the chamber. When cartridge #6 feeds, however, cartridge #7 comes up cockeyed in the magazine. It looks like cartridge #8 is pushing the follower too far over, and cartridge #7 is actually sitting on top of the sliding portion of the follower (sorry, I don't know the proper name for that part, but I'm talking about the sliding guide that should be between cartridge 7 & 8.). I've got a new follower and op rod spring inbound to see if that solves the problem, but I'm also wondering if it's possible to mis-load the clip and have it cause the condition I've described? Anyone heard of this sort of malfunction before? It appears that this is why I always have the problem with round #7.

The other thing I discovered is that my op rod is very slightly bent. It's difficult to see when looking at it, but if I roll it on something flat, I can tell that it is very slightly "S" shaped. It doesn't seem to drag or bind when I operate the action, and I'm inclined to believe its OK as is, but I wanted to ask if it can cause a problem if the op rod is not ABSOLUTELY straight?

Thanks
HRF
 
#2
First, the op rod is supposed be bent. Go to the CMP website and search on the M1 forum. Your question has been asked and answered many times.

Second, the seventh round FTF is also a known problem. It has also been discussed many times on the M1 forum.

If you are going to own and shoot a M1 Garand you really ought to read that forum on a regular basis. Almost any question you can think of has been asked and answered and will be again. Some people can't figure out the search function.
 
#3
I believe the "Known Problem" on the CMP forum is clip-ejection on the 7th round. That's not what's going on with my rifle. In any case, my problem didn't seem to be "known" to the CMP armorer I spoke to on the phone a couple of days ago. Hence, my posting the question on a couple of web sites to see if anyone else has knowledge of it.

HRF
 
#4
Couple questions. Did you do a detail strip, clean and properly grease the rifle?
Also weak op rod spring can cause timing issues, I would replace it with one from Orion 7. Dont use a extra power Wolff spring as it can cause short stroking
Also check to see if gas screw is tight. If loose it can leak and cause timing issues
It makes no differnce how you load rounds in the enbloc. As already stated the op rod is supposed to have specific bends
I doubt replacing the follower/slide will make any differnce
 
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#5
Well first off congrats on the new Garand. I personally went to Aniston and picked my first one out last summer. Great experience. Second you may need to send it back to the CMP. They have been known to take back a rifle that has had issues, fix the issue and the return the rifle. It does not happen often, but sometimes, especially right now at the pace they have been running, thing get over looked or just fluke things happen. I would certainly encourage you to ask around on the CMP forums. There are some guys that really are helpful there, and know there stuff. Sorry this is the best input I have but that is what I would do.
 
#6
classicshooter said:
Well first off congrats on the new Garand. I personally went to Aniston and picked my first one out last summer. Great experience. Second you may need to send it back to the CMP. They have been known to take back a rifle that has had issues, fix the issue and the return the rifle. It does not happen often, but sometimes, especially right now at the pace they have been running, thing get over looked or just fluke things happen. I would certainly encourage you to ask around on the CMP forums. There are some guys that really are helpful there, and know there stuff. Sorry this is the best input I have but that is what I would do.
Click to expand...

Really? no one but guys on CMP know Garands? There are a few good knowledgeable guys on CMP forum but are many guys that just repeat what they hear on the internet and dont know squat
I gave good advice on whta to check. What the OP's rifle is doing is a common issue
 
#7
Orlando said:
Couple questions. Did you do a detail strip, clean and properly grease the rifle?
Also weak op rod spring can cause timing issues, I would replace it with one from Orion 7. Dont use a extra power Wolff spring as it can cause short stroking
Also check to see if gas screw is tight. If loose it can leak and cause timing issues
It makes no differnce how you load rounds in the enbloc. As already stated the op rod is supposed to have specific bends
I doubt replacing the follower/slide will make any differnce[/QUOTE

I did detail strip and clean my rifle. I also made sure the gas tube screw is tight. I've got a new op rod spring and follower on the way. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the problem is from one of those two parts.

Thanks,
HRF
Click to expand...
 
#10
7th Round Stoppage

Surplusrifle Forum ? View topic - M1 Garand DOesn't Like The 7th Round.

http://www.nicolausassociates.com/PDF/TroubleshootingGuide.pdf

When I got my M-1 (Blue Sky re-import) back in 1990 brought it home cleaned and greased as per the TM and on the first trip to the range we fired about 300 rounds when I got home the Op Rod Spring was broken in 2 places and it worked fine with its 3 piece spring I have loaded my clips with either the left round high or the right round high this M-1 doesn't seem to care being right handed I tend to fill them so they end up right side round high

I would advise locating copies of the TMs as they will show proper lubricating points and list the malfunctions and possible causes as in the last link above.

Enjoy your old warhorse they are a joy to own and cause other shooters who don't own them to wish they did.
 
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#11
I highly recommend anyone who has or is interested in the M1 Garand get a copy of Hatcher's "Book of the Garand", Besides the history, and use in combat and match shooting it has an excellent section on maintenance , stripping, lubing, plus and go Trouble Shooting Section.
 
#12
Thanks for the info. I do like shooting that rifle. It's much easier on my shoulder than my 03's and its surprisingly accurate. I've just got to get this functioning issue nailed down!

HRF
 
#13
Orlando said:
Really? no one but guys on CMP know Garands? There are a few good knowledgeable guys on CMP forum but are many guys that just repeat what they hear on the internet and dont know squat
I gave good advice on whta to check. What the OP's rifle is doing is a common issue
Click to expand...

I never said the guys on the CMP forums are the only ones that know anything about Garands, however if I had a problem with my Honda Civic, though I may be able to get some sound advice on any car forum, if I have a very specific problem I would go to a place with a bunch of people who also has similar cars and maybe have seen/fixed similar problems. Yes there maybe some guys on there that do not know, but you got a lot of very reputable people who have been working/playing with the Garand since its existence. Further more there is a section in there about asking Orest, who then can maybe able to determine if the rifle needs to go back, which would be a better alternative than trying to be home gunsmith since then it will be on their dime and done by their armorers. As for your advise, well it involves replacing a spring that the CMP may just send him rather than him spending more of his own money. Besides your "good advise" is only good if it works and has him ordering parts that again the CMP may replace, and though this problem may be common to some but I have never seen it, so it is not that common.
 
#14
For all those who think it is the spring why? The OP said it was FTF on the 7th round. In my thoughts if the spring was bad then it would have failed on earlier rounds since as the follower rises with the rounds, there is in a sense a little bit less pressure on the spring for every round fired. So in my head I would think if it was failing to feed the bolt is not going back far enough therefore would have had the problem in all the previous rounds if it was the spring.
 
#15
classicshooter said:
For all those who think it is the spring why? The OP said it was FTF on the 7th round. In my thoughts if the spring was bad then it would have failed on earlier rounds since as the follower rises with the rounds, there is in a sense a little bit less pressure on the spring for every round fired. So in my head I would think if it was failing to feed the bolt is not going back far enough therefore would have had the problem in all the previous rounds if it was the spring.
Click to expand...

A weak spring will cause the pressure on the follower to be less as rounds are fired as it raises resulting in issuea to feed the last few rounds. Not saying 100% that this is the OP's problem but its the first place to start.
IMO with any Garand the very first thing you should do besides cleaning and properly greasing is replace the Op Rod spring
 
#16
I'm sorry, I should have clarified this in my initial post. With my particular malfunction, the bolt appears to be cycling properly, and it is picking up the 7th round as it moves forward. The problem is that the cartridge does not chamber. The bullet strikes the rear of the barrel, or the inside of the receiver. Typically this forces the bullet back into the case, and stops the action until the offending cartridge is manually cleared.

From my manual cycling of the action. It looks like Round #7 is being allowed to "flop around" a little and move out of proper alignment with the chamber as it feeds up through the magazine. So I think either the op rod spring is failing to apply sufficient tension to the follower so as to hold the cartridge securely, or something is impeding the follower as it moves up through the magazine.

HRF
 
#17
classicshooter said:
For all those who think it is the spring why? The OP said it was FTF on the 7th round. In my thoughts if the spring was bad then it would have failed on earlier rounds since as the follower rises with the rounds, there is in a sense a little bit less pressure on the spring for every round fired. So in my head I would think if it was failing to feed the bolt is not going back far enough therefore would have had the problem in all the previous rounds if it was the spring.
Click to expand...

The spring is under more compression with a full en-block. It has two functions, working the action and feeding the next round. There is an overall length it needs to be.
Measure your spring length to see if it is in spec.
 
#18
With this additional info you may have other parts out of spec.
Go ahead and replace op rod and test fire (hand cycling doesnt really prove anything)
Spring should be 20 -19 1/4 inches long with no bends or kinks or flat spots
 
#21
Orlando said:
A weak spring will cause the pressure on the follower to be less as rounds are fired as it raises resulting in issuea to feed the last few rounds. Not saying 100% that this is the OP's problem but its the first place to start.
IMO with any Garand the very first thing you should do besides cleaning and properly greasing is replace the Op Rod spring
Click to expand...

This makes a bit of sense, but it then should have had problems on the next round, or it would make sense to me that it would.

n64atlas said:
The spring is under more compression with a full en-block. It has two functions, working the action and feeding the next round. There is an overall length it needs to be.
Measure your spring length to see if it is in spec.
Click to expand...

This makes a bit of sense, but it then should have had problems on the next round, or it would make sense to me that it would.
 
#22
With the additional information I would contact the CMP or Orest on the CMP forums. IT may be easier and cost less to have the CMP deal with/fix the problem. Worst case scenario is they send you an entire new rifle.
 
#23
classicshooter said:
This makes a bit of sense, but it then should have had problems on the next round, or it would make sense to me that it would.



This makes a bit of sense, but it then should have had problems on the next round, or it would make sense to me that it would.
Click to expand...

As each round is fired, the Spring gets longer and weaker. Any kinks, flat spots, or the spring taking a set, thus being shorter, will cause problems as you empty the clip.
The rounds don't have time to rise up and be striped off into the chamber. Bolt speed increases as you fire the rifle. Op rod springs should be replaced when the no longer measure in spec. Orlando gave you the specs on the spring.
 
#24
n64atlas said:
As each round is fired, the Spring gets longer and weaker. Any kinks, flat spots, or the spring taking a set, thus being shorter, will cause problems as you empty the clip.
The rounds don't have time to rise up and be striped off into the chamber. Bolt speed increases as you fire the rifle. Op rod springs should be replaced when the no longer measure in spec. Orlando gave you the specs on the spring.
Click to expand...

I understand that a weaker/shorter spring that is out of spec would creat issues with the rounds being pushed up for the bolt to strip out of the clip, but my question still remains the same, why would it cause problems on rounds 7 but not on round 8?

Besides with the additional information that the OP has posted I still stand by my previous statement about contacting the CMP about the issue, and possibly letting them fix the issue.
 
#27
Well folks, I THINK my rifle is cured. I managed to run 5 full clips of ammo through it yesterday without a hitch (I realize that's not an extensive test, but that was all the ammo I had on hand). Since this problem first cropped up, I've been unable to run two consecutive clips through my rifle without a mis-feed. I also used the same clips I have used in the past when the malfunctions occurred, just to rule them out as the source of the problem.

Prior to shooting my rifle yesterday, I completely field stripped it. While doing so, I found a heavy coating of cosmoline on the Op rod spring. This immediately caught my attention because I had previously completely cleaned the spring of all traces of cosmoline. What I eventually discovered was a fairly heavy concentration of cosmoline inside the hole in the Op rod where the spring lives. I also found some small concentrations of the stuff on some of the other parts. After cleaning it all off, and properly lubing the rifle, I took it out for the test fire noted above. I did measure the spring while I had the rifle apart and found it to be 19 1/4" long, so that seemed to be within spec. I still don't know why the malfunction only occurred on the 7th round, but I'm hoping the problem is solved!

Thanks for all the help!
HRF
 
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#28
If cosmo was really caked and thick on spring it could have slowed down cycling by rubbing on the op rod which would have been the same as a weak spring
Glad you got her running right
 
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