Fundamental frank vs the free recoilers

[Lowlight]

I have been going to these matches since 2001, and no matter the type or format, I have never seen people NOT share equipment such as lasers, etc The only time you cannot share is when they say it's on the clock or it's a blind stage. That is what a balanced COF is meant to solve.

For the SH Matches that are Find it, Range it, etc, you can range in the staging area. Everyone ranges together, we did this so people could share and new shooters could learn. We also say if you can't get it to ask, and we always operated this way.

Today, any Sig Laser will get you 85% there in a match, the Kilo 2400 will get you close to 100% without trouble.

People share all the time, whether in a squad or team. For the field stuff, you create a staging area that gives everyone access to each other.

As we said, with an Open Field of shooters, it is never gonna be fair, but the goal is to balance it a bit better for everyone.

I think adjusting targets sizes to create a handicap system is not a bad idea. However you would need a qualifier or rules package to say who gets to shoot the easy stuff vs the hard, or you just split the field up so while you shot alongside the rest the field is really divided into multiple groups.

 

[Mormegil87]

I think the target size variations or split would work with a large match, such as a two day match. They do it to a degree at the GAP Grind.

I think it would be hard to do for some of the smaller local shoots just due to the cost of steel. Although, I'm not sure you would need to implement that system with the local matches since most are filled with newer shooters.

 

[silhouette]

First off, I am a new prs shooter, never been to a big match, limited in time, budget, equipment and practice opportunities

One thought that occurred to me reading this thread. Many of you want to test skills over equipment but are completely on board with a “find it, range it, shoot it” stage

That sounds like a lot of fun, but I can buy an accurate range. If we are anti gear race, then be consistent. One of the main reasons I have not tried to make it to core or k&m is I feel (perhaps incorrectly) that I need a tripod and range finder before i invest the time and money to shoot a big match. I fully recognize the need for tripods and range finders in the real world in combat or hunting- they are important tools that make a lot possible

Speaking to what can grow the sport imo, some sort of way to “help” the new shooters. Maybe a big target/little target concept or something like that. I don’t think it is “give everyone a trophy” if you provide an easier way for people to enjoy their time, who cares if the guy that has never shot beyond 300 yds and only has “try dope” from an app gets to shoot at 3 moa targets, or gets more time, or gets a spotter coaching his misses or all of the above?

And if you say “this is not for the big 2 day matches” you might be right, but if you have to choose between a 4 hour drive for a club match and a 6 hr drive to a 2 day match, what makes the most sense? Not everyone has good local options

I'm the MD for my local monthly club shoots and equipment allowed for all stages is rifle, bipod and one bag unless otherwise stated. If there is a stage with a tripod or any other gear, it's supplied so that all shooters get to use it.
I try to keep the playing field level and everyone seems to appreciate it.

 

[goosed]

Isn't it funny how long this thread lasted being about free recoil instead of the everything else that has been dragged up? The title of this thread is a proxy for, "hey guys, let's get together and hate on PRS!".

I used to think FR was a departure from "THE FUNDAMENTALS!!!". I now see it differently. The fundamentals are universal and perennial. That's why they are fundamental. There are certain things you just can't get away from as long as we are shooting rifled barrels that propel a spitzer bullet from a gas combustion, initiated by a ... etc, etc.. Sure, a 6oz Trigger Tech will mitigate a lot of trigger control error. A heavy, small caliber rifle will mitigate follow thru and recovery errors. And a cutting edge cnc lathe turned alloy solid with an ultra high BC will mitigate some wind estimation error. And at the same time, all those advancements have enabled us to shooter, faster, farther, and more accurately than we had previously.

The most important aspect of position as a MMS fundamental is NPOA. Does FR circumvent NPOA and position building? Not in my mind. You are just establishing a mechanical NPOA with the rifle. Shooting in the prone with a bipod also mitigates a lot of positional challenge but does that mean anyone that shoots in the prone is perpetrating fraud? (to borrow some of the melodramatics here). There is a shooters solution of time, target distance, and size in which standing offhand just isn't the answer. To the folks who are saying any idiot can be taught FR in 6 minutes and buy a hit...apparently not.

As far as tailoring the rifle for the technique, doesn't that happen in every high-level shooting sport? Is anyone accusing a top service rifle shooter who puts lead in the buttstock of their NM service rifle to enhance its balance for SO position of not having fundamentals? This stuff has been going on forever. Just not in the action shooting sport of Precision Rifle.

There are so many threads to pull on this discussion that it's no surprise that its easy to get off the topic. People argue if PRS is practical, some argue if its tactical. It is an action shooting sport. Easy. No. purely by its self, it is neither practical or tactical. Yes, you can extract some technique, knowledge, or experience that you learned in this sport to hunting or combat. Nothing wrong with that as long as you have the experience to be judicious about what it is that you take away. Just like IPSC and 3G. There is a reason SOF units sponsor action shooting sports for their units. One such SMU ran an IPSC match open to the public on the backside of their compound and students who were struggling in the MMS phase of their training course were encouraged to shoot the match.

PRS , for many, is just another sport or pastime for those fortunate enough to afford the American dream. It could be poker, golf, or fishing for those folks. Taking it too serious and getting offended that it doesn't define your definition of practical MMS is a futile effort. As such, you will not be able to convince your average top end shooter of what the "right way" is. They are not interested in your version. There are stages and styles that please the masses. And in reality that is a big part of the evolution of this sport. There are a lot more factors that drive stage design, prize tables, and shooting style than some puritanical concept of righteous execution of the same fundamentals. Getting shooters to your match is a big one. Despite the saber rattling on snipers Hide I'm willing to bet it isn't a big enough population to drive change. Namely bc many commenting probably aren't regular competitors. In fact, I wonder how many proponents of , "THE FUNDAMENTALS!!!" have actually received professional instruction of doctrinal MMS fundamentals from a credible institution...AND ...AND ...had to demonstrate a level of proficiency to be certified. It think this is why FR appears to some as a departure from the fundamental of position. Bc they don't recognize the universality of NPOA (the most important aspect of position building) executed in a unique way. So you're using a bag or barricade clamp instead of a sling. Big fucking deal. Its like fundamental Islamic groups arguing who is more true to their interpretation; factions fighting for power and influence.

I have also criticized PRS. For being insular and cultivating a one dimensional shooter. I engaged in a 30 page thread with Morgan Lamprecht and Rob1. They just took it as an attack to change "their" sport. It is also my sport, as much as 3G and IPSC is. And I was just trying to point out what other disciplines could offer if shooters cross trained. Totally failed to open any eyes. The reality is, you have to accept PRS (and NRL) for what it is. If you are bored and don't like it, move on. Period. Shoot the 2gun match at core, shoot some CD matches. Shoot that local F class match up in the mountains bc you can camp and fish with your buddies the night before. All the small suggestions of two sided barricades and complicated Kyl stages don't really sound any different to me. They are improvements in a small margin that won't aggregate into a substantial difference. Imo.

Hell, the proof is in the pudding. If one was deadset on proving PRS and FR wrong then go to a PRS match with a stock Remington 308 sporter (max 7lbs dry and 1.5 moa capable) and no bag or tripod, sling only. And beat at least 3 people proficient in FR shooting 16lb + 6mm's. Is it just a matter of folks buying points bc they don't know "THE FUNDAMENTALS!!!" or do these single discipline rifles and gear really do enable a capability that didn't exist. I mean one could argue that one side of the argument is trying to reverse engineer the test to validate their trainings.

Or a person could start their own league or series based on their ideas of stages and give it 2 years. If they can divest PRS and NRL of enough of their shooters to make theirs something that will last, i guess they were right.

A well thought out response.

I might take a slightly different view and argue that NPOA and M(echanical) POA are two entirely different animals. One being a "fundamental" and the other a "tactic" derived to win a game. Yet, I think we're mostly in agreement that neither have the virtue of being wrong.

Frank's bridge burning kit is extremely polarizing, so the arguments on both sides that have followed are no surprise. What I think is unfortunately getting missed in Frank's "PRS bashing" and "fundamental rants" is that the main focus for him has always has been growing the sport while building better shooters.

How to maximize return on investment for sponsors, how to increase attendance and how to avoid cultivating singular dimension shooters are the all valid concerns for our sport to address. There may not be any easy answers, but simply saying "move on" does nothing to help grow the sport. In fact doing the same old because it's easy rather than adjusting to shooters changing interests is a main reason behind service rifle and bulls-eye comp's plummeting attendance numbers.

 

[j-huskey]

If you build it, and it's worth coming to, and your definition is more right-er, they will come. Right?

Absolutely !
And keep coming back....

Time honored proven business principle... works every time... build it to meet an articulated need, they come,
listen to further articulation and adjust as needed, business thrives.

Bitch, moan, groan, and appear to be into search and destroy, and see business fold...

Ruebenski writes very well.... +1

Goosed made a solid comment on attendance numbers plummeting.

Other posters have made good comments on plummeting attendance in both PRS and other venues.

And those commenters preach to a choir. Reubenski had a very well nuanced sermon worth saving for other camp meetings yet to come.

 

[goosed]

I'm not suggesting doing the same old bc it's easy. I'm saying PRS doesn't want snipers hide's help. Who says PRS is THE discipline to save anyway? Perhaps the renegade matches will take over. There's a dominant crowd in my neck of the woods that won't shoot PRS. Even our PRS club is thinking about abandoning PRS as the series to subscribe to. Most of the folks are going to shoot more NRL matches and some are thinking the border war series will be the series to align the club's efforts with. One thing is for sure, we want to have a local club match and a local series. That will happen regardless. You don't have to "save" PRS to save the action shooting discipline of precision rifle shooting. Do it your own way, in your own locale, with your own style. If you build it, and it's worth coming to, and your definition is more right-er, they will come. Right?

I'm in no way advocating for the PRS or NRL.

In fact we held unsanctioned events for years locally before eventually becoming one of the original Border war matches. It's the same local destinations and matches we've done for years with a series name behind it... no doubt it's a better mouse trap for us.

Yet, don't be fooled Border Wars isn't devoid of the issues that are facing PRS and NRL.

 

[Lowlight]

Fundamentals Won today ...

Enough Said !

 

[Lowlight]

We are operating to the right of the decimal point in a lot of ways,

Think about this, in terms of mindset, compare the following phrases:

1. Where were the sights when the shot breaks,

2. Where are the sights when the shot breaks,

See how small that difference is.

If nothing, I have been consistent since day one.

 

[j-huskey]

Yet, don't be fooled Border Wars isn't devoid of the issues that are facing PRS and NRL.

In the beginning, there was Storm Mountain in West Va, Rod Ryan, Texas Pistol Academy in Whiteright Texas, Robert Duhon, Snipers Paradise in Harlengen Tx (and other places), Thomas Blahnik, (Jacob Bynum...), Badlands, Oklahoma, Bobby Whittington, Tac Pro, TX, Bill Davidson, and Rifles Only, Kingsville TX, Jacob Bynum... all b4 2001 and Frank....
And U.S. and overseas, there was Autauga Arms, Will vonGal, who had John Plaster run his matches to start with.
And in LE, Snipercraft, Florida, Derrick Bartlett... and up north, I forget the name, Stuart Meyers...

I set foot/shot in all those places (exc Meyers), and saw "those issues" then, as the sport started to grow, and the personalities clashed, as everybody tried to grab a bigger piece of the pie... nothing today is different from then.....

Frank showed up with Snipershide in 2001 and Jacob and Frank did their thing. For awhile it was Jacob, Badlands, and Tac-Pro basically running "the circuit", and same game as pre 2001 and PRS today. Some other deals tried "growing the sport" and got attacked.
Nothing has changed.

Then along came start up PRS, and up to a point, it's running right along, but, this topic is evidence of some cat fighting endemic to these endeavors.
Goosed said BorderWars isnt devoid of the "issues", well, it's the exact same issues that go back to my mention of Storm Mountain.

The quality of BorderWars RO's and supporters will produce a successful run until time, age, job, family, health, etc stop those mentioned from hard active participation and what is now BorderWars will evolve as Storm Mountain up to PRS and NRL have evolved.
This evolution will continue as the players change, because the events now are run by the dominant personality of the Match Owner/locations.

Until a national organization run under established business rules comes into existence, like NRA National Competition, the "issues" will continue to be dominated by personality...

And at the risk of creating major offense, I will use "MY FRIEND" Shannon Kay as an example of todays current "issues", me and Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles just cant see Shannon doing it Frank's way... and the issues continue as Alpha Male personalities run the shows.

That was just an example, Shannon and I started shooting in the same neighborhoods when Uncle Sam still owned him and I've dealt with Frank since about 2002... no wonder I need meds now.. (not !!!) ???

Now, there are way more personalities involved than ever b4... this complicates a solution to "the issue" which isnt about fundamentals as the topic evolved.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I think LL is referring to something like this, as he posted this pic in another thread.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Tx_Aggie]

.......

 

[Sheldon N]

Fundamentals Won today ...

Enough Said !

Phil shot super solid, got a chance to chat with him for a bit at the banquet afterwards and you couldn't wish the win on a nicer guy.

Can't say that I saw a single "free recoil floating butt-stock trigger pinch" in the entire 150 shooter finale though, either in person or in the huge number of photos from the match. What I did see was a lot of really good shooters shooting a lot like how Phil shoots, and the guys who have solid fundamentals shot better than those who didn't.

Fundamentals won for sure, but I'm not sure the other team exists.

 

[sstacllc]

So true. Thats why I am so glad i started shooting with the .308 and higher, It made the 6.5x47 so much easier. I think you hit a lot of points that are valid. Guys hitting the easy button with light recoiling rifles, wind is easy recoil is easy followups are easy. 308 and 300s require much more attention to wind( 308) recoil (both) and followups( both )

I was shooting a 7 Rem Short Mag

 

[sstacllc]

I guess I'm flummoxed by the black or white, snap judgment of a shooter by his use of FR. Best case FR is a different execution of NPOA. Worst case it's a tip or trick. I remember Kyle Lamb saying when he used to come out to our unit, " the difference between a good shooter and an experienced shooter is an experienced shooter knows what he can get away with." When Jerry Barnhart would come out, he was full of tricks and tips. Not every round fired needs to be that 200yd Standing offhand slow fire, one round at a time execution. Sometimes speed is more important than gnats ass precision. Dropping a mostly full mag during an ISPC stage bc you've planned how many rounds you need for the next part of the COF and a mostly full mag won't get it done without a flat-footed slide-lock reload. A trick to game a stage in a competition? Yep. Not training for the combat that you'll never see here. Doesn't mean the guy doesn't have "THE FUNDAMENTALS!!!". Its not like he's the bridge-builder that sucked just one dick. Shoot 70 stellar shots in the match, but shoot just 5 using FR and all a sudden you're the Jersey-wearing, prize-table bitching PRS shooter that is everything that is wrong with the competitive precision rifle shooting community.

LOL! I have heard the same thing from Kyle. It's very true. Sometimes the translation from the game to the "real" world gets missed as well. I have heard that being able to see the stage before you get to shoot it is "gaming" then what is scouting a hunting area or a leaders reccon prior to finalizing a plan in combat. I also think there is a miss fire from the deliberate sniper world and the Time Sensitive Target type snipers. The fundamentals are always applied but snaps and movers after a healthy amount of physical stress with zero recovery time require a shooter to know what they can get away with.

 

[sstacllc]

Phil shot super solid, got a chance to chat with him for a bit at the banquet afterwards and you couldn't wish the win on a nicer guy.

Can't say that I saw a single "free recoil floating butt-stock trigger pinch" in the entire 150 shooter finale though, either in person or in the huge number of photos from the match. What I did see was a lot of really good shooters shooting a lot like how Phil shoots, and the guys who have solid fundamentals shot better than those who didn't.

Fundamentals won for sure, but I'm not sure the other team exists.

I think Jim "SeeCoil" I wish I came up with it, was a video of how extreme the practice can be. I've seen other pictures of guys doing that technique but I think that is a relatively small group of folks

 

[sstacllc]

You can't leave the prize table out of this discussion. It IS the reason there is even a discussion.

If there is no prize table (the only way to take it out of the discussion) then why would anyone object to having different classes such as USPSA?

Everyone still looks at the scores to see who won the match. Doesn't matter if there is a GM, M, A, B, C or D next to their name. The winner is the winner. The nice thing about classes it that it motivates everyone to try and improve and move up. I have NEVER heard anyone brag they were the C class winner. D class shooters are trying to improve to C. C's are trying to improve to B and so on and so on. There is no benefit whatsoever to sandbag. Then have the Finale with invites going only to the top class of shooters (essentially what is currently being done by inviting the top 100).

As I said before I think the goal of these series should be to promote and grow the sport first and foremost. Going to a classification system I think would help bring in more shooters and entice them to shoot more matches.

Maybe if we had 35k members shooting 12 matches a year I think Classes and handicaps would be necessary . I think we are still a relatively small group of folks doing a very humbling sport. Even a starter rig that would be competitive (any one could win with it) is going to run $4-6k. Plus most people live in areas that just can't support a healthy sized LR club. I'm not sure how much this sport is going to grow. Cost are going down but land to shoot on is hard to find.

 

[sstacllc]

Ya, I personally don't get the whole "gaming" criticism. I would like to see the realization of folks If they were to watch the Benning International Sniper Comp. or the USASOC comp. You as a competitor get the stage brief, to blind stages. You get a certain amount of time to digest it, you get to ask questions, and then that's it. You're up. Conversely, if it doesn't say you can't do it in the stage brief...then you CAN do it. No do overs for the RO or MD who wasn't smart enough to think of the savvy solution that the competitor did. If it wasn't in the stage brief then its game on. Concealed 66% IPSC during a field style stage? Roger that, Recon FLIRs to find the steel using the heat differential. That type of critical thinking and problem solving is often more important than SGT Rock-heads pure MMS ability. Gaming a stage using critical thinking directly correlates to problem solving in combat. That's why it is allowed. Encouraged. Valued. The fight isn't meant to be fair. Bend that enemy over and BF him as hard as possible. Stack the deck overwhelmingly in your favor. That is the name of the game. I will use every advantage to my favor...to WIN!

At our club finale, on the first stage of day 1, our squad was presented a COF using an obstacle. We asked all the normal questions, the ROs gave their answers. Then, one of us devised a solution that completely negated the difficulty of the stage. The solution was genius. Against my better judgement, I asked the ROs if we could implement the solution and demonstrated it for them. You could see it in their faces. Their minds were blown. We met all the requirements and constraints of the stage, but still managed to problem-solve the stage into a wet paper bag. They didn't know what to say at first. Eventually, they said no and had to renege a little and just admit flat out, no. Because it was too good a solution. We shot the stage the way the MD intended. The awesome problem solving that we did went unrecognized and unrewarded and we shot the stage in a contrived manner. To satisfy a mentally limited MDs challenge about a tire.

I think some MDs irritation about folks "gaming" (problem-solving) their stages is the insecurity that they were outsmarted by someone who had the experience to know what tricks to use... to win.

There is no cheating or gaming in a gun fight. Just winning and losing. The cool thing about a competition is I can go get into a gun fight with 150 shooters, lose, learn and walk away.

 

[Lowlight]

There are safety concerns to some, like when a guy drops a rifle off a prop because it is not being properly supported. Or when guy(s) have NDs because the trend is to set the triggers entirely too low to be safe for a practical event.

I think the rush to sign up as many matches in a short amount of time has created issues with less experienced match directors. That is pretty clear, the gaming of the stages is basically because guys are bored and have seen the same damn thing every week. So they invent better ways to negotiate it.

Much of it is perception and how things are perceived from the outside. When you consider the growth of Precision Rifle, when you consider how many new rifles that are sold vs the relatively tiny number of PRS/NRL members that is the issue. The growth of the sport, while impressive on some levels is not where it should be, and much of the complaints come from guys seeing the game and not wanting to play.

If you want to be honest, go to the PRS website right now and count how many people shot 3 or more matches in this past season. Post it here:

When you consider the number of training students I see in a year, just me, it's more, when you consider the views on this site and others within this precision rifle space, it 10x more and then look at the competitions, it's not moving together. One side is up high, the other is not. Part of that is the perception being put out there by those engaged in the game.


We are talking 300 +/- people vs 300,0000 +/-

 

[FishDr]

There are safety concerns to some, like when a guy drops a rifle off a prop because it is not being properly supported. Or when guy(s) have NDs because the trend is to set the triggers entirely too low to be safe for a practical event.-

THIS !!!!!! Exactly this !!!!
Especially when BOTH happen simultaneously!
Yes, it’s a game. Yes, it’s an automatic DQ and in almost every place a removal from the range.
That doesn’t mitigate the danger or recall the bullet. Decisions have consequences.

 

[j-huskey]

In posts 123 and 124, relating to the attached picture in post 113, what IS the range safety rule in place for the handling of a loaded closed bolt rifle ??

 

[Timo Turl]

In the U.K. we have a min trigger pull weight for practical matches. It doesn’t take long to check everyone as they sign in and it puts all shooters on a minimum equal footing. Fair and safe.

 

[Lowlight]

Random Enforcement, it's hit or miss.

No real rules as they vary from location to location, standard guidelines are not met.

Again it comes back to the overall Series not being a Sanctioning Body as much as it's a marketing tool. It's Advertisement vs Enforcement, so you have a lot of room for manipulation. A Sanctioning body is there to certify the match and make sure the procedures in place meet a minimum standard.

There is no real standard for Range Officers, which is why it's easy to have varying enforcement of any given stage because it's not mandated. We spoke about addressing this and part of the conversation I had after Wiseman was regarding this part of the sport, never happened.

The Sanctioning Bodies in all these cases only keeps score, not much else.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I think Jim "SeeCoil" I wish I came up with it, was a video of how extreme the practice can be. I've seen other pictures of guys doing that technique but I think that is a relatively small group of folks

I watched Jim See teach this exact technique to a new female shooter off a PRS barricade I was RO'ing at the Midwest Border Wars Finale and for the record Jim See is a complete ass hole that is full of himself. I'd like to know why he got DQed in the finale.

 

[Mormegil87]

^

Read his facebook post. He'll tell you all about it.

 

[The Hey]

I watched Jim See teach this exact technique to a new female shooter off a PRS barricade I was RO'ing at the Midwest Border Wars Finale and for the record Jim See is a complete ass hole that is full of himself. I'd like to know why he got DQed in the finale.

He didn't GET DQ'd by any RO or the Match Director. He pulled himself out of the match. Jim states he ND'd on the second to last stage. Asshole or not (opinions are like assholes, we all have them. Some bleached and clean for anal scenes, others covered in shit) he pulled himself out of first place/Top Tac for the match and season. Make your own judgment.

 

[Lowlight]

I don't see a reason to personally attack anyone by name without cause.

Disagreements in policy are one thing, personally singling people out is another.

Should we post the Dropgate video? @The Hey

I bet part of the reason he DQ'd himself was to set an example vs waiting 2 days.

Not a fan of martyr aspect but in light of the other stuff, it makes more sense when looking at the entire weekend.

 

[sstacllc]

There are safety concerns to some, like when a guy drops a rifle off a prop because it is not being properly supported. Or when guy(s) have NDs because the trend is to set the triggers entirely too low to be safe for a practical event.

I think the rush to sign up as many matches in a short amount of time has created issues with less experienced match directors. That is pretty clear, the gaming of the stages is basically because guys are bored and have seen the same damn thing every week. So they invent better ways to negotiate it.

Much of it is perception and how things are perceived from the outside. When you consider the growth of Precision Rifle, when you consider how many new rifles that are sold vs the relatively tiny number of PRS/NRL members that is the issue. The growth of the sport, while impressive on some levels is not where it should be, and much of the complaints come from guys seeing the game and not wanting to play.

If you want to be honest, go to the PRS website right now and count how many people shot 3 or more matches in this past season. Post it here:

When you consider the number of training students I see in a year, just me, it's more, when you consider the views on this site and others within this precision rifle space, it 10x more and then look at the competitions, it's not moving together. One side is up high, the other is not. Part of that is the perception being put out there by those engaged in the game.


We are talking 300 +/- people vs 300,0000 +/-

Those are some very valid arguments. Especially on the gaming side of it and the disconnect between match participation and amount of folks buying gear. As a match MD it can be tough to run the same thing over and over and over so there is some "mission" creep towards goofy shit or what I would call artificial difficulty. That is one of those things when an MD envisioned a prop being used a certain way and the "gamers" which I can be a member of from time to time comes up with a way to solve the problem that was unexpected. As a shooter when I see a stage that is made artificially difficult it makes me angry and drives me to try to think of a way to "outsmart" the MD. I don't like to go to matches that have the feeling that I'm being punched in the junk for no reason. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. Also as a shooter and former action guy I can tell when an MD has put real thought into targetry, stage design and really appropriate an honest effort to make it practical. I'm not sure where the disconnect is. I'm not sure if its not wanting to play the game? not being able to be competitive due to money time or any number of reasons or the drama of the whole thing. I for one am really burned out with the drama. I get caught up in it form time to time and I usually say or do something stupid or offensive to someone and get bullied into sitting back down. This happens at so many levels that folks stop raisin there hand to join in. I also have been beaten into the Army Writing style so the direct approach saves time it isn't always the best to communicate complex issues that have some emotional charge.

 

[The Hey]

I don't see a reason to personally attack anyone by name without cause.

Disagreements in policy are one thing, personally singling people out is another.

Should we post the Dropgate video? @The Hey

I bet part of the reason he DQ'd himself was to set an example vs waiting 2 days.

Not a fan of martyr aspect but in light of the other stuff, it makes more sense when looking at the entire weekend.

I wasn't attacking Jim. Nor did I call him names. "Asshole or not" meant by other's opinion. Jim did the right thing. So did a few others that got DQ'd at the match. And it wasn't the props or the COF that caused these DQ's. That's already been mentioned elsewhere and IMO, totally NOT the cause and case. I respect Jim as a competitor and person and consider him a friend. I have his number, and if I had a grievance, I would text or call him before letting the world know.

 

[sstacllc]

He didn't GET DQ'd by any RO or the Match Director. He pulled himself out of the match. Jim states he ND'd on the second to last stage. Asshole or not (opinions are like assholes, we all have them. Some bleached and clean for anal scenes, others covered in shit) he pulled himself out of first place/Top Tac for the match and season. Make your own judgment.

Jim did self declare that he NDed and Jim may be all of the above but that doesn't make him wrong about a great many things. I used to not get along with Jim but I got to spend 10 days with him at the outdoor show in PA and my opinion has switched 180. Jim is very direct and to be friends with him requires thick skin.

 

[sstacllc]

I watched Jim See teach this exact technique to a new female shooter off a PRS barricade I was RO'ing at the Midwest Border Wars Finale and for the record Jim See is a complete ass hole that is full of himself. I'd like to know why he got DQed in the finale.

Jim did self declare that he NDed and Jim may be all of the above but that doesn't make him wrong about a great many things. I used to not get along with Jim but I got to spend 10 days with him at the outdoor show in PA and my opinion has switched 180. Jim is very direct and to be friends with him requires thick skin.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I don't really care about the reason he got DQ'd or removed himself. I was just curious. I am just saying from first hand experience someone that was volunteering their time and their sons time to him to help run a match. He's an asshole that's my first hand experience and my opinion and believe I'm entitled to it. If someone else has first hand experience of him being a stand up guy your entitled to your opinion.

 

[sstacllc]

I don't really care about the reason he got DQ'd or removed himself. I was just curious. I am just saying from first hand experience someone that was volunteering their time and their sons time to him to help run a match. He's an asshole that's my first hand experience and my opinion and believe I'm entitled to it. If someone else has first hand experience of him being a stand up guy your entitled to your opinion.

I totally get it. Have you told him your opinion in person?

 

[The Hey]

"I'd like to know why he got DQed in the finale."

Gets told why.

"I don't really care about the reason he got DQ'd or removed himself."

INSERT "COOL STORY BRAH" GIF.

 

[The Hey]

I totally get it. Have you told him your opinion in person?

I'll take THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN for 2000 Alex..

 

[Lowlight]

@The Hey

I was not saying you did, i was asking about something specific not related to Jim

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I told him my opinion that day.

 

[sstacllc]

I told him my opinion that day.

Right on

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I'll take THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN for 2000 Alex..

Go up your post count somewhere else like the airsoft forum and let the big boys talk

 

[The Hey]

@The Hey

I was not saying you did, I was asking about something specific not related to Jim

ahhh gotcha. As for the video: that's your call. I've seen it. I have my opinions.

 

[sstacllc]

Go up your post count somewhere else like the airsoft forum and let the big boys talk

wow dude please take a step back

 

[The Hey]

Go up your post count somewhere else like the airsoft forum and let the big boys talk

If you think my post count matters, then you don't know me. Oh, I was at the PRS finale. Hey @sstacllc lets go to airsoft forums... we need a higher post count!! BWHAHWHAHWHAHAHWH

 

[sstacllc]

If you think my post count matters, then you don't know me. Oh, I was at the PRS finale. Hey @sstacllc lets go to airsoft forums... we need a higher post count!! BWHAHWHAHWHAHAHWH

That is really fucking funny actually. "Jim see is an opinionated ass hole" "Hey fuck tard go get your post count up somewhere else"

 

[Lowlight]

We dont' have an Airsoft Section ?

Wow that guys is angry

 

[sstacllc]

Go up your post count somewhere else like the airsoft forum and let the big boys talk

That is really fucking funny actually. "Jim see is an opinionated ass hole" "Hey fuck tard go get your post count up somewhere else"

 

[sstacllc]

We dont' have an Airsoft Section ?

Wow that guys is angry

I should go over to ARFOCM and spin those boys up

 

[Sheldon N]

Phil just posted up his write up about the Finale for those of you who follow him on social media. I like his perspective on the whole thing.

 

[sstacllc]

Phil just posted up his write up about the Finale for those of you who follow him on social media. I like his perspective on the whole thing.

good write up

 

[Lowlight]

He needs to edit his post to correct the record

You guys are not very good at hiding your drama

 

[TonyTheTiger]

When you consider the growth of Precision Rifle, when you consider how many new rifles that are sold vs the relatively tiny number of PRS/NRL members that is the issue. The growth of the sport, while impressive on some levels is not where it should be, and much of the complaints come from guys seeing the game and not wanting to play.

If you want to be honest, go to the PRS website right now and count how many people shot 3 or more matches in this past season. Post it here:

When you consider the number of training students I see in a year, just me, it's more, when you consider the views on this site and others within this precision rifle space, it 10x more and then look at the competitions, it's not moving together. One side is up high, the other is not. Part of that is the perception being put out there by those engaged in the game.


We are talking 300 +/- people vs 300,0000 +/-

This is not a phenomenon particular to precision rifle sports. It was the same way when 3 gun was the hot new darling of the gun rags and bloggers.

When you consider the huge number of people reading about the precision rifles they're currently pushing in gun magazines, it's no wonder a lot of them are being bought. Then a fraction of that huge number comes here to discuss the use of their new toy, and some of them even take a class. But the fraction that actually says "I want to go to a match, get my ass handed to me, realize I'm not nearly as good as I thought I was, then keep doing that for a year before I know what I don't know and can start climbing up the scoreboard" is just plain tiny.
Everybody wants competition gear, very few people intend to compete. Thats just the way it is, the people interested vs the people participating will never grow at a parallel rate.

I have a feeling that even if PRS was doing a good job running and promoting the sport it wouldn't drastically change the numbers.

 

[sstacllc]

This is not a phenomenon particular to precision rifle sports. It was the same way when 3 gun was the hot new darling of the gun rags and bloggers.

When you consider the huge number of people reading about the precision rifles they're currently pushing in gun magazines, it's no wonder a lot of them are being bought. Then a fraction of that huge number comes here to discuss the use of their new toy, and some of them even take a class. But the fraction that actually says "I want to go to a match, get my ass handed to me, realize I'm not nearly as good as I thought I was, then keep doing that for a year before I know what I don't know and can start climbing up the scoreboard" is just plain tiny.
Everybody wants competition gear, very few people intend to compete. Thats just the way it is, the people interested vs the people participating will never grow at a parallel rate.

I have a feeling that even if PRS was doing a good job running and promoting the sport it wouldn't drastically change the numbers.

Exactly! The amount of Tactical gear purchased vrs the guys using it in combat