Advanced Marksmanship Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

#51
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Are there any specific dry-fire drills to help ingrain these habits?

When I was first learning how to shoot a pistol, I was taught that dryfire was one of the best ways to learn how to fire without disturbing your sight picture. I'd imagine something similar carries over here.
 
#52
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

I am very new to this site and this is all outstanding stuff. The more I have an opertunity to read the more I am enjoying. I have and will encourage my juniors to partake in the postings on here. A great deal of what has been said here could not have been explained any better. Granted we do more irons, but the fundamentals are all the same. One thing I will toss out for consideration is balance and comfort, trying to be as comfortable as possible along with great balance will help to improve on an already sound position. Dry firing is a great tool but the key to that is being completely honest with yourself, call each and every shot.
 
#53
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

CleverName, dry fire all you can, it will help you get the fundamentals, the positions, and the motions down and comfortable.

DuaneB, balance and comfort are critical, and calling the shot is an absolute requirement if you want to get better, as long as you can figure out why the shot did not go where you called it.
 
#54
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

OK, so there's nothing like the "put a dime on your front sight, now practice your trigger pull until the coin stops falling off" drill for handguns?

But yeah, I'll definitely be practicing getting in a good prone position, repeatable cheek weld, and good follow-through.
 
#55
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

One of th sorta-dry fire drills our MCL Pistol Team would practice was with a Gripmaster. It's a squeeze exercise apparatus that allows individual fingers to be exercised independently, and comes with a clip-on attachment that includes a set of blade and notch pistol sights. What we would do was develop a grip while holding ontarget.

Some of us developed a technique whereby we used our trigger finger to pull the front sight down onto target. We used a standard 4 1/2 pound trigger resistance on our 1911's, and the technique would get the sights down onto target and held steady when the trigger finger force was about halfway to sear disengagement.

My own Bullseye Target grip used a firm wrist, middle and weak finger holding the grip, thumb and pinky straight. The pistol would 'rock the cradle' on recoil, but the firm wrist would prevent partial cycle stovepipe ejection failure.

We were also trained by the Teams at Quantico to perform a deliberate recovery from recoil. The pistol would naturally bring the hand and straight arm up and left, and we were taught to consciously and deliberately pull it back down and right back onto the target.

Greg
 
#56
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duaneb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> One thing I will toss out for consideration is balance and comfort, trying to be as comfortable as possible along with great balance will help to improve on an already sound position.</div></div>

Of course, muscular relaxation is an element of a steady position. It's as important to good shooting as NPA and bone/artifical support. Most folks, however, it seems, don't recognize that comfort is important. They're too busy looking to improve their performance through equipment acquisitions and upgrades.
 
#57
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Sterling, you are absolutely right. We as distinguished shooters use a AR-15 with a match 1-7 or 8 twist barrel, tuned 4 1/2 lb. two stage trigger, match sights, and good sling. We are very capable of cleaning all targets in a CMP match from 200-600 yards. I personally use a CLE lower with a White Oak upper and the cost is about $1200. It isn't the equipment guys, it the desire to go out and have "perfect practice" each time you pick up your rifle. If you are having trouble with a particular aspect my suggestion is to find someone who you can work with to iron out the problem, don't keep doing the same things over and over. The definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over the wrong way, while expecting different results". The problem could be a very small detail.
 
#59
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Ok, quick question.
when prone, whatg is preferred, canting to the side a bit or getting right behind the gun. I always canted a bit, but today i tried the other option and aside from getting after a bit, i found it easier to find me NPA. Also, when i do this i place my support arm or elbow alsmost pointing towards the target.

What are your thoughts?

R.
 
#60
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Rickp,
It depends. If you are using a sling, good luck getting straight behind the rifle - I'd recommend getting into a position that allows you to relax your muscles and rely on bone and sling support. For a bipod/rest/pack setup, most recommend getting straight behind the rifle. This is probably the best position in terms of managing recoil and keeping your sights on target. Also consider the height off the ground you prefer - some like high prone, others like to be able to lick the dirt.
The best thing you can do is find a coach and have him help you find the best position that will give you the consistency required to hone your abilities.
 
#62
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

With any combination of bone/artificial support you want control, as well as muscular relaxation, until recoil subsides. When control over the rifle is consistent (also known as follow through) you will have effectively appointed a limit and pattern to recoil, which will help get you better results, that's to say, bullets going where you expect them to go, as the axis of the bore at bullet exit will still complement your perspective of aim.
 
#64
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Like a lot of subjects, if you're not enjoying it, you're probably doing it wrong. This is the best reason to recognize that good shooters don't perform in a vacuum. The best shooters recognize that good shooting is a group activity, and that learning is best accomplished as part of a dialogue. The shooter who insists on teaching themselves has a fool for an instructor. I speak on this as one who sometimes forgets that simple lesson and is occasionally that selfsame fool. We all do it. It's what some call 'plateauing', and others call a 'block'. Basically; it's when we get in our own way, and learning cannot procede until we get out of our own way.

Greg
 
#66
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've rarely blown a shot because of neglecting something complicated. It's almost always screwing up the fundamentals. </div></div>

As someone that's pretty mediocre in many disciplines, I must say that I resemble that remark! Very concise yet very profound.

I can be an excellent shot sometimes, and my inconsistency is a living testament to that statement.
 
#67
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Well, went to the range yesterday and today. Today focusing on the fundamentals outlined. Groups today, while still not stellar, were markedly better than yesterday!

I also noticed that when dry firing, I always thought it was normal for the reticle to jump off center a little bit when the firing pin snapped forward. Today as I was dry firing while applying the techniques Huskey described, I noticed when it all came together, that this wasn't the case...

It's weird how today I feel like I moved forward leaps and bounds...
 
#70
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Im new to the Army Infantry. I would like go to sniper school but I refuse to go there before i can shoot long range, i would like to attend a long range marksmanship class ideally in Florida but i would be willing to travel. Any suggestions?
 
#72
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

This is one of the best threads I've read here. With so much change in the world, it's nice to know that good marksmanship is constant. Everything I first learned over 20 years ago has been said here.

Nice job guys.
 
#74
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

What a great read! I went to an Appleseed event with my 10/22 last summer and it was a huge eye-opener. I think it's time to get a few more snap caps and practice these fundamentals at home without firing a shot, with .308 costing what it does these days.



My lightsaber: (Going back to iron sights!)



DSCN6706.jpg
 
#75
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Thank you for the refresher course! Something to think about and practice at home during the rain when unable to make it to the range. Thanks!!
 
#78
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Man this post is just excellent, very well done. You've got to go back to the basics no matter how skilled you are, or think you are. I am Always learning and looking for answers. And am also a newbie to the shoot today down tomorrow type shooting. I received Expert Marksman with the Long Gun with my very short stint in the army, but i am still just a beginner in this class of shooting, and am very humble to be here within this select company of men and women Snipers on this forum. 413 i purchased the Updated And Expanded version of The Ultimate Sniper by Maj. John L. Plaster, USAR (RET)for around $60.00 and is worth every penny, has an excellent amount of information. He also has just recently The History of Sniping And Sharpshooting for $89.95 and am sure is also worth it's weight in gold, just can't afford it just yet,lol. Hope this helps.
 
#80
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duaneb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I will toss out for consideration is balance and comfort, trying to be as comfortable as possible along with great balance will help to improve on an already sound position. Dry firing is a great tool but the key to that is being completely honest with yourself, call each and every shot. </div></div>

The key to success is not always glorious, it is grueling and mentally challenging. Your simple words speak volumes… especially the part about being honest with yourself.

Sterling Shooter said:
BRAVO ZULU!!!! Sterling Shooter, Your words in the last sentence above are dead to rights. True, good quality equipment is one part of success, but in the overall scheme of things, the smallest part of the whole shooting equation. Bottom line, there is no substitution of consistent application of the basics. One shot at a time, every time. Sadly something that so many never seem to be able to grasp.

And you are exactly right, “The bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed.”, each and every time!
Click to expand...
 
#81
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

One thing I see often these days are folks who equate executing the firing task with actually knowing how to shoot. At distance, not getting the job done, they perceive a more powerful scope will do the trick, not recognizing the hi-power scope will just be a greater distraction to good shooting. The deception begins as they shoulder the rifle to establish a relationship with the reticle and target, not thinking about first getting a consistent relationship between the eyeball and eyepiece through a good stock weld, or adjusting the NPA for a muscularly relaxed position. Of course, they're doomed. For these folks it's not so much back to basics as it is not knowing that there are basics in the first place.
 
#82
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For these folks it's not so much back to basics as it is not knowing that there are basics in the first place. </div></div>

True enough. I see part of that as an extension of our current cultural. Everyone wants a quick fix and instant satisfaction. The concept of delayed satisfaction is not a concept that many people can grasp these days it seems. The approach to good shooting is one of constant work, self-analyzation, and being constantly aware of what you are doing. So many folks work so hard on the set and benign technical factors part of this discipline and totally ignore or toss off the most important variable, themselves, “The Weak Link” in the whole equation. It is always work, I know it is for me. The fun part is when you look at your scorebook/data book and realize all that hard work of applying the basics one shot at a time was effort well spent. And this discipline is one of constant leaning. Heck, I’m a newbie here on the forums but have used some of the words spoken by some of those on this thread and applied it to myself during this winter’s small-bore season. As a result I have improved/tweaked on some positions and developed a more focused internal dialogue to be conducted prior to “initiating the ballistic solution”.
 
#83
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

The Moving Chaos drill at Rifles Only requires a shooter to engage 5 targets at ranges from 210 to 545 yards. Two of the targets are moving. The remaining three are static. The largest target, at 545 yards, is 11.75 inches by 21 inches. The other targets are smaller. Maximum time for the drill is 60 seconds. It has been done in as little as 35 seconds.
 
#85
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Wind changes constantly, it ebbs and flows...

you have to memorize your dope, if you're serious about shooting, memorizing your dope 200 to 1000 yards isn't hard, it's even easier if you use mils instead of MOA, but can be easily done with either.
 
#87
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Snipers engage unknown distance targets without advance notice.
</div></div>

The best shooters appear to me to be those who can get good hits on targets and in conditions which are not controlled by the shooter. Hitting static targets horizontal to the line of sight at any distance or wind condition, so long as the bullet is nose-on, seems to be something everybody could be trained to do-the other stuff, involving slope and/or movers-not so easy, at least for me, as I don't practice it.
 
#88
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.


I'd like to add that a good mental management program is also key. Visualization helps breed consistancy....and consistancy is accuracy. There is some good stuff in this post. Remember, dont change more than one thing at a time...record your changes and try them out for longer than a few shots. Your goal should be to shoot one perfect shot at a time. Once you let it go...its gone.
 
#89
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

stable, solid position each time, bone on bone, Is this supposed to be meat to bone I recall that from the early days in parris island.great info I will add it to the library.
 
#90
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Moving Chaos drill at Rifles Only requires a shooter to engage 5 targets at ranges from 210 to 545 yards. Two of the targets are moving. The remaining three are static. The largest target, at 545 yards, is 11.75 inches by 21 inches. The other targets are smaller. Maximum time for the drill is 60 seconds. It has been done in as little as 35 seconds.
</div></div>

It takes me about 35 seconds to fire one shot to known distance......

So excited that there are so much more to explore in tactical shooting, and no wonder Jacob kept telling us not to shoot groups at 100 yard. It literally proves nothing.
smile.gif
 
#91
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

jhusky,

Thank you for this. This is a valuable read for someone who thought they were doing everything right like myself, or for the person who has never squeezed the trigger. I will be re-reading this regularly.
 
#92
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

I was reviewing training notes for a class and thought this was important to remind people on.

Optics enhance errors, higher powers on optics enhance errors more.

We work on teaching people to shoot on the lowest power to reduce the optic enhanced errors, until they are stable.

An old Sotic manual and class outline showed two weeks of shooting the M24 with iron sights to enhance the fundamentals of marksmanship before going to optics.
The old manual and outline laid out teaching fundamentals based on NRA and AMU shooting positions, standing, sitting, and prone, like in high power competition.
Remember, this was/is to teach, enhance, and reinforce fundamentals, not to teach sniping.
(And one of the prerequisites for Sotic (then) was to have shot Expert with the service rifle, and it was not neccessary for the attendee to have the B-4 qualifier from Infantry Sniper School in those days.)

So much we forget and the circle repeats itself. We see it here on the board every day in some post or another.

So, I think the advice I have been giving my students to buy an iron sighted 22 and learn the fundamentals still stands as good advice. Cheap and fun, a survival weapon, and a quiet hunter when needed.

The old stuff does not change, it IS the foundation of marksmanship and hitting where you want to, preferably where you aimed...
 
#93
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

For most, without the benefit of some Service Rifle training, the scope and bipod will only serve to deceive and distract. Failing to reach the highest plateaus of good shooting, these "snipers" are perplexed. They don't understand why their highly resolved sight picture, and a steady rest does not get the expected result. Thing is, they don't know anything about good shooting. They've confused executing the firing task with actually knowing something about good shooting. They don't know the importance for a consistent stock-weld, or how to control the rifle consistently until recoil subsides. They do allright at SR but, with important concepts missing or less than perfectly applied, angular error makes long range just a fantasy. Blaming their poor results on non-existant wind, these shooters chase spotters and think they need a course in long range shooting when all they really need is some basic marksmanship.
 
#94
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

I can see how a scope could distract a person unfamiliar with the fundamentals. But can you explain how it would "deceive"?

And what is wrong with using support, bipod in particular? How is it detrimental?

TNX!
 
#95
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can see how a scope could distract a person unfamiliar with the fundamentals. But can you explain how it would "deceive"?

And what is wrong with using support, bipod in particular? How is it detrimental?

TNX!</div></div>

The novice shooter believes the scope describes where the barrel is pointed when the only thing for sure is that it describes a relationship between the reticle and target. With any parallax, anything less than a consistent perspective of aim will deceive the shooter that his aim is on target while the bore is actually pointed someplace else.

The bipod is a steady rest but, unless control of the rifle is maintained until recoil subsides, a divergent arc/angle effect of the line of bore at rest and the line of bore at bullet exit will set the bullet on a course somewhere other than where aimed.
 
#97
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've rarely blown a shot because of neglecting something complicated. It's almost always screwing up the fundamentals. </div></div>

As someone that's pretty mediocre in many disciplines, I must say that I resemble that remark! Very concise yet very profound.

I can be an excellent shot sometimes, and my inconsistency is a living testament to that statement.</div></div>

If you have the fundamentals of marksmanship down fairly well, start concentrating on your mental game for consistency.
 
#99
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The novice shooter believes the scope describes where the barrel is pointed when the only thing for sure is that it describes a relationship between the reticle and target. With any parallax, anything less than a consistent perspective of aim will deceive the shooter that his aim is on target while the bore is actually pointed someplace else.</div></div>

Never heard it phrased that way before, makes a good deal more sense now. Thanks.

I always find it odd when I see people overscoping their rifles, E.G., 20x scopes on 10/22s on the 25 yard line.
 
#100
Re: Fundamentals of Marksmanship.

Good thread. One thing I didn't see mentioned that is likely my biggest obstacle is to simply slowwwwwwwwww downnnnnnnnnn. I shoot several times per week but I'm always under an artificially self-imposed time crunch to get in and out of the range.

When I slow down and think of nothing except a good day of shooting everything comes together and I've got game. When I bring the rest of my life to the range with me, not so much. Shooting is a lot like golf in many regards...its a lot more mental than people think. When I screw up the mechanics, it's not because I don't know or understand them, its because I allow other factors to cause me to forget to apply them.
 
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