Garand Snipers

[Pinecone]

I have been enjoying my repro Mosin sniper and thinking about getting some others.

I will probably end up with a Gibbs 1903A4 at some point.

But I was looking at CMP and they have M1D rifles at an almost reasonable price. And Sarco and others have repro scopes and mounts and cheek pieces.

What do you think?

Any suggestions?

 

[pmclaine]

You cant go wrong buying from the CMP but dont expect a "conditioned" rifle that would have been ready for service back in the day.

If this will be your first Garand dont fail to consider an iron sighted model. Your likely to get a better condition rifle/barrel than the M1Ds being sold right now through the CMP. Individual armorers may have put some magic into their M1Ds but the mil spec for the M1D was really nothing much more than attaching a scope to a regular M1. With irons you may be just as accurate as your repro scoped model.

That thought aside there is a certain cool with the scoped M1.

There is a gentleman on here from the Alaska area with goood time on the M1D Im sure he will give you good info soon.

Edit - The CMP is selling repro scopes now. Check those out before you go elsewhere.

 

[kraigWY]

The thing is if you get the M1D, it had no disadvantage or the M1. Without a scope it is legal for CMP Garand Matches. M1C/Ds are not match rifles, the are service Grade Garand that have been modified to take a scope.

I ran sniper schools for the NG using M1C/Ds, neither have an advantage over the other in the accuracy department. If I was to get one I would choose the D over the C simply because of the price difference.

The CMP offers different grades, and the better grade will be a better rifle. Makes since.

Original M84 scopes and mounts are going to be expensive. There are after market repos, I don't have one, but I have heard some are good, some are bad. Same with the mounts. I would recommend going to the CMP Garand Forums and ask those who've have got repo scopes/mounts for an idea what works and what doesn't.

I've shot "as issued" Garand's in High Power and 1000 yard matches. Seems the worst of them are capable of 3.5 MOA. If you could shoot 3.5 MOA you'll be winning most of the CMP matches you can shoot, including the Vintage Sniper Matches.

As said, the M-84s are going to be pricy, repos iffy.

CMP is starting to sell M82 reproductions, M82G2" "Hi-Lux optics", The first M82s repos were iffy, the new, current product are suppose to be better. They come with mounts for the 'A4s but can also be used with the M1C/Ds in the CMP Matches.

The minute I received the Sales Notice saying they would start shipping in Jan, I ordered on. I'm planning on replacing the Weaver K 2.5 on my M1903A4 with the M82. My Weave is old and not the clearest scope I've used.

If the quality of the M82G2 is as good as the reports I've seen then I'm going to buy a second one and a M1D to go with it.

Again, I'd recommend going to the CMP Garand Forum and asking those guys about the bet options for mounts. The stories I've heard is the repo D mounting screw works loose after you start taking it off and on the rifle. That wouldn't bother me, I'll glue the sucker on, I have another Garand I use in Garand matches.

One thing you can take to the bank, if you have problems with CMP products let them know, they will make it right, you want find any better Customer Service anywhere.

I just don't see how you can go wrong putting together a sniper from the CMP M1Ds.

 

[Pinecone]

Thanks for the info.

How hard would it be to make a non-scoped Garand into a scoped one? Just wondering.

My actual plan would be to pick up a standard M1, and the M1D.

 

[pmclaine]

You would have to get the scope mount block fit to a barrel. I know they made repro blocks but what I read was that they often didn't fit we'll. I am unsure if fitting the block would also involve turning the barrel some.

If your plains to get two rifles and you are getting them from the CMP you will have the best of both worlds. If you are not committed to your M1D being correct but more of a shooter you can mix and match parts to bring it up to speed. The CMP is selling individual parts now so anything you need you should be able to get. One of the most important pieces f the puzzle, besides barrel condition, will be how tight the action locks up in the stock.

Having the money to get two rifles makes sense or just buying the M1D with the understanding you are going to need to spend a little more (hopefully not much) to get it up to speed.

 

[Mike Radford]

I would not attempt to turn a non-sniper M1 into a D or C. The C would involve drill and tap and be like a bubba job IMO. Changing to a D would require a barrel and a few other small parts. Why do that when M1Ds are easier to get at CMP than standard Garands. Buy the best M1D they have and be happy. If you can go pick it out in person, do it. An M1 with an added M1D barrel will never have collector value when the CMP record says it was sold as a regular M1.

 

[FTC]

I have both c and d, you can't go wrong buying through the cmp. The cert that comes with the gun proves its original. They have been rearsenaled though, unless you get real lucky. The GI mount, m84 scope, and GI cheek pad did end up costing close to the price of a service grade m1d, but to me it was worth it vs getting replica stuff. Haven't gotten anything for the C yet, the scope mounts for those are very pricey and not easy to find.

Both m1d and c have standard irons if that was your concern.

If you really want one, buy now from the cmp. I don't think you will find a better price for a documented one. And once they are sold out the value will only increase.

 

[Mike Radford]

I have both c and d, you can't go wrong buying through the cmp. The cert that comes with the gun proves its original. They have been rearsenaled though, unless you get real lucky. The GI mount, m84 scope, and GI cheek pad did end up costing close to the price of a service grade m1d, but to me it was worth it vs getting replica stuff. Haven't gotten anything for the C yet, the scope mounts for those are very pricey and not easy to find.

Both m1d and c have standard irons if that was your concern.

If you really want one, buy now from the cmp. I don't think you will find a better price for a documented one. And once they are sold out the value will only increase.

I agree. Good investments plus wonderful to shoot.

I remember when I was sick over missing a minty M1C for $5700, no scope, no cheek pad, no flash hider, but had matching original bracket and original nice bore, McClane(?sp) letter to verify. M1Cs with original matching brackets were hens teeth and like 3% of confirmed M1Cs.

When CMP first got the M1Cs, it was my first trip to CMP south. Most of the original matching bracket rifles were pulled for the CMP auction site. They had a whole line of racks full of M1Cs with only about 5 missing in an entire row. I picked out 2 with matching brackets and paid the full original price and was glad to get them. There were only 3 with original matching W2 brackets and one was really ugly. They had 2 others with matching brackets Korean War style, numbered on the side.

Upon getting ready to leave I noticed the Kimber 22s. They were beautiful and brand new. I had to go back though the office and get one of them also.

 

[Pinecone]

Thanks. I am going to at least an M1D form CMP. And probably a basic Garand also. I will probably put a repro scope on the M1D, unless you can convince me otherwise.

I have seen on the CMP forums about using an agent to pick one out, if I cannot make the trip.

How do you find a good agent? What kind of fee does an agent charge?

 

[kraigWY]

I never heard of anyone charging for agent service. Go to the CMP web site, North or South store section (which ever you choose) and mention you want an agent. I haven't heard of any problems.


GARAND SNIPERS:

 

[Mike Radford]

I would be worried about using an "agent". Somebody may decide that is too close to a straw purchase. If you are anywhere near the north or south store, go pick one out. It is worth the time and trouble. You can get what you want. Make a pleasure trip out of it. Picked out an M1D about a year later and got a really good one.

 

[kraigWY]

It wouldn't be a straw purchase. The agent goes over whats available, then picks what he thinks will work, then CMP sends it to the one who wants the gun.

 

[Weird one]

To install an M1D mount you need to remove the bbl., cut the bbl. stub to fit the base paying attention to length of the cut because that is what screws into and stops on the receiver face. Then you need to reinstall the barrel and be certain it's indexed correctly... perfectly, otherwise you will have accuracy issues. ( op rod drag, rolled sights, op rod dismounting during firing, bolt battering, twisting fit and associated drag up front in the gas cyl. and other issues. Then it has to be drilled and pinned so it won't move on you, bottom line take it to someone that knows these guns really well, Fulton I think will do this for you.

 

[Weird one]

I did my M1C and M1D and the D was by far easier. The C is a bear and it has to be worked with solid carbide only, HSS and Carbon won't cut the receiver, only makes a cute shiney mark. Then count on 2-3 taps per hole to tap... yes I said 2-3 taps per hole and they screech and pop as you lose teeth and dull them and the whole time I was waiting for a broken one, didn't happen. When I was done they would have had a very hard time cutting wood. Then you have to cut the taper pin holes... another can of worms there... SSDD. I did this to an old M1 that I had accurized back in the 80's and topped it off with a Lyman Alaskan and it shoots scary good and fun.
Maybe down the road I'll be able to put up some pics of some of the stuff I've built over the years... when I can talk my kid into showing me how to.

 

[Pinecone]

Not a straw purchase, they are only picking the rifle. Then they give the package of paper work to CMP and the deal is done between CMP and you.

Which has the better selection? North or South?

I have to check opening hours, may be worth a trip. I can drive to North in a day.

 

[303_enfield]

If your close drive to the store and pick your own! Hell, I flew in for $189 round trip, pick my rifles and had them shipped to me. Cheaper then when I drove.

Do it!

 

[classicshooter]

If your close drive to the store and pick your own! Hell, I flew in for $189 round trip, pick my rifles and had them shipped to me. Cheaper then when I drove.

Do it!

+1 on that. I was in Mobile, Al for work for a couple weeks. On the weekend I drove the 5 hours up to Anniston. It was a very long day, but the experience was worth it. While waiting for the doors to open I ended up meeting a father and son who came in from Texas, who I still occasionally talk with. Of course I did this almost 2 years ago. I have heard the pickings are a bit slimmer right now.

 

[Pinecone]

Hmm, $352 round trip.

Did you fly into Birmingham or Atlanta?

 

[Pinecone]

So, should I get a repro M82 or an original M84?

It looks like I need to be in the area (3 hour drive, but still closer than now) the CMP South the end of February.

 

[Pinecone]

Well, I went by CMP South yesterday. And an M1D Garand is following me home.

Unfortunately, a Service Select Garand is also following me home.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Could one gain any significant amount of accuracy by rebarrelling a Garand with a Krieger or Criterion?

 

[JGaynor]

There is at least one company that offers to fit YOUR barrel block to a standard M1 Barrel. They don't provide the block. so at the end of the day if the set up doesn't work who do you blame?

The only good way to build an M1D from an M1 is to locate an original Springfield Arsenal, NOS, M1D barrel with the block installed. The installation of those is a relatively simple barrel swap with head space check/adjustment.

But for sure avoid any foreign made, no name barrel blocks that require lathe work to install. Unless the vendor takes full responsibility and guarantees the work from beginning to end.

Just so you know the M1D system was designed by John Garand at Springfield Arsenal. The patents were issued to him. The main reason it came into popular use was that it was much cheaper and easier to install than the Griffin and Howe double lever side mount.

The M1D could be assembled easily at depot level with minimal tools.

The original M1D barrels have become somewhat hard to find and expensive but one was on an auction the other day.

The barrels themselves seem to have been manufactured in a fairly narrow time frame in the early 50's. Whether any special pains were taken in selection is not known by me. One would think if the barrels were manufactured from scratch they would have at least been air gauged like the 03-A4's were.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Mike Radford]

There is at least one company that offers to fit YOUR barrel block to a standard M1 Barrel. They don't provide the block. so at the end of the day if the set up doesn't work who do you blame?

The only good way to build an M1D from an M1 is to locate an original Springfield Arsenal, NOS, M1D barrel with the block installed. The installation of those is a relatively simple barrel swap with head space check/adjustment.

But for sure avoid any foreign made, no name barrel blocks that require lathe work to install. Unless the vendor takes full responsibility and guarantees the work from beginning to end.

Just so you know the M1D system was designed by John Garand at Springfield Arsenal. The patents were issued to him. The main reason it came into popular use was that it was much cheaper and easier to install than the Griffin and Howe double lever side mount.

The M1D could be assembled easily at depot level with minimal tools.

The original M1D barrels have become somewhat hard to find and expensive but one was on an auction the other day.

The barrels themselves seem to have been manufactured in a fairly narrow time frame in the early 50's. Whether any special pains were taken in selection is not known by me. One would think if the barrels were manufactured from scratch they would have at least been air gauged like the 03-A4's were.

Regards,
Jim

I agree with Jim. Good advice.

I would not want any barrel on a M1D that was not US and I would not want and add on block on any barrel.

On the original question re Criterion etc.. A new barrel can help accuracy but if you already have a good barrel the answer is maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you have. Making an M1 Accurate is a lot more complex than a barrel change. They are a semi-auto and the issues are multiple.

 

[iggyort]

Wow!!!

You gentlemen have answered all the questions I have had about converting a regular M-1 Garand to a C/D varient.

Thank you.

 

[BravoSierra]

I believe shuffs and warbirds will turn your block and fit the barrel if you choose to go that direction. IRC, the greeks turned some of the standard M1s into D's, so you may not necessarily have a rifle with provenance from the US in that configuration, but certainly reaccepted on import that way. I wouldn't hesitate turn an m1 into a D from a smith that knows what they are doing.

 

[2ballcane]

I have to say that a number of the ds I looked at in the north store had virtually new barrels I have 2 complete ds so I opted for my first c who had a serialized base


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[Mike Radford]

Most of the serialized base examples were sent to auction. Is it numbered on the side or the bottom and does it match the rifle serial number. Good score.

 

[2ballcane]

I looked everyone over to find that and it was a match to the rifle sn! I don't recall where it was engraved. It appeared virtually unused mw and te under 1. Picked up a new t-37, now k-line and a gh mount with rings. Commercial alaskan with sunshade and rubber cup tops it off


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[Mike Radford]

I looked everyone over to find that and it was a match to the rifle sn! I don't recall where it was engraved. It appeared virtually unused mw and te under 1. Picked up a new t-37, now k-line and a gh mount with rings. Commercial alaskan with sunshade and rubber cup tops it off


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Sound really like a good one. Good score on the K-line also. Commercial Alaskan beats many of the options these days, like replica M82s.

I went to the south store very shortly after they were first available. They had a complete row of M1Cs, I think that is about 60, with 3 slots empty. They had 3 matching by the WW2 method, under the bottom of the bracket, and 2 with matching on the side which is supposed to be Korean build era?? One of the the first group was pretty poor and neither of the ones numbered on the side were very nice. I got two with original matching numbers on the bottom, both with nice bores and wood.

I remember when CMP auction was getting $2000-2500 for bare plugged M1C receivers.

 

[2ballcane]

The k-line was real luck. I bought it in a sealed wrap. The seller represented it as USGI -MRT 10/52 new in sealed wrapper. Imagine my surprise when I opened it an found the k-line complete with lace and screws. Probably sat that way since before the Korean conflict. Certainly plenty of data to support a commercial alaskan is "correct." I can't quite see the $1-2K for a beat up m82 often missing either the sunshade or rubber eye cup.

 

[2ballcane]

Could one gain any significant amount of accuracy by rebarrelling a Garand with a Krieger or Criterion?

That would be a good start, but a host of other upgrades and smith work could really make them a tack driver much like any gas gun. The challenge is the cost of quality parts and finding the right smith.

 

[Mike Radford]

The k-line was real luck. I bought it in a sealed wrap. The seller represented it as USGI -MRT 10/52 new in sealed wrapper. Imagine my surprise when I opened it an found the k-line complete with lace and screws. Probably sat that way since before the Korean conflict. Certainly plenty of data to support a commercial alaskan is "correct." I can't quite see the $1-2K for a beat up m82 often missing either the sunshade or rubber eye cup.

The "experts" claim only a A or B prefix commercial Alaskan scope is correct, and I can not recall which. I am not sure that we know.

 

[2ballcane]

B


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[Pinecone]

I ended up having a chance to stop by CMP South.

An M1D and an H&R Service Select following me home.

I got a GI scope mount off the Bay and still need to pick up a scope.

 

[Snipers]

Twins

The D is 100% original. Stock is a SA/RA, GI T37, GI mount, pristine GI M84, GI cheek pad. Shoots "lights out" for its type - sub 2 MOA (best 5 shot is 1 MOA) from the bench.

The C is has a repro scope and upper mount. Lower mount is numbered to the rifle. I needed to "play" with this one to improve accurracy. Re-mounted the gas cylinder on the barrel and replaced the gas lock because the threaded area looked a bit reemed out and was not providing even tension against the the cylinder. Created a little play between the gas cylinder and the front hand guard (way too tight originally). Lastly, removed a little wood in some "strategic" places. Shoots much better now, but not quite up to the D's standard. Sub 2.5 MOA with handloads, but it has also fired a 1 MOA five shot group.

I need to shoot the C more to get a good opinion regarding accuracy. I do not use the M2 flash hider for shooting. It's just for display. I have tested it both ways. There is a dramatic point of impact shift and accuracy is impacted to a degree; even when on very tight. I guess this is consistant with military testing.

The D mount is more sturdy in my opinion; fewer parts that can loosen. I'm not confident regarding the repro scopes either.

This C has probably been rebuilt twice - once by the U.S. and once by the Greeks. Still a rare piece of history.