Garmin 701 vs Kestrel 5700 Elite

[Tex68w]

Looking to upgrade my shooting gear and I am torn between these two. I definitely need to up my game in regards to my range finder (currently have an older Vortex Ranger 1000) with either the Sig Kilo 2400 or a Terrapin, but my bigger concern is how do I go about streamlining inputting all of my info and getting a ballistic solution.

As of right now I have to take my elevation/humidity/wind readings from my NV4500 and manually enter that info into my ballistics app on my phone, range the target with my range finder and manually enter that into the app on my phone to get my dope. This requires four devices, 1) Phone for ballistics app, 2) Kestrel for atmospheric readings, 3) Range finder for range, and 4) Binos for target ID. I'll obviously only streamline this setup by one device if I go with the Kestrel, but having all of these devices communicate with one another and eliminating the phone from the equation altogether is nice.

Option 1-Get a Terrapin and use a 5700 Elite in tandem to get my dope. Fast, easy because they talk to one another and I get all of my readings and necessary info with two units, arguably the best range finder on the market. Major drawback, the price.

Option 2-Get a Terrapin, Kilo 2400, or an even cheaper range finder and a Garmin 701. I like the idea of having my ballistic calculator on my wrist for fast reference and it's nice that it'll do everything that the Kestrel will do aside from wind. I have an older NV4500 that I can keep around for easy wind readings/calls prior to setting up the shot but that is info I have to manually input and a third device required to have lying around. Not nearly as streamlined as the Kestrel 5700 setup.

I guess my question is for those that use one of these setups and why you chose the path that you did? Is the Garmin faster than the Kestrel, is one of the two easier to use/more intuitive? Does the Garmin chew through batteries in comparison to the Kestrel? Is the Garmin that much better than the Kestrel making the addition of an older Kestrel unit for wind readings worth having around? I am all for streamlining my setup and simplifying my kit, but I am willing to carry an extra device and input some info with the Garmin if it means that it is the better option overall.

Thanks for any input.

 

[MarinePMI]

It really is a preference sort of thing, as well as what you intend to use it for.

I have both, and each have their own pros and cons. The Kestrel, once everything is input, is just flat convenient to have everything in one device. It has all the atmospherics gathered by a single device that updates them automatically. The downside is the software and interfaces are clunky and can be confusing. Different logic patterns for the Link app than the Kestrel AB, discrepancies in names of duplicate profiles when moved between the Link app and Kestrel and only one way to upload profiles from a PC (an $80 optical USB cable); these all can be frustrating at times. I haven't used the LRF function, so can't really speak to that much, other than the Kestrel (as I understand it) can only speak to one BT device at a time (so Link App and LRF can not talk to the Kestrel without disconnecting one, so the other can BT link to the Kestrel).

The Garmin is limited by it's sensors (temp and Baro only) and has less buttons than the Kestrel (making the buttonology confusing to some). I'd say it uses batteries up faster than the Kestrel, but not so much that it is an issue (I've still got the original battery in mine, and I've used for the past few months without an issue). The 701 is also nice if you like to wear the device. The Kestrel you have to pull out to calculate, the Garmin you just start editing the range card on your wrist and go. You do have to periodically adjust the humidity, but so far, I haven't seen that variable have much effect on come ups (though admittedly, I live in a very dry environment). The prominent plus with Garmin (IMO), is the ease of use with their updates and integration with the Profile loader (using a standard micro USB cable). It's bone stupid simple, and works every time with none of the headaches of the Kestrel AB/Link App. This makes sense when you look at how many different devices Garmin has to manage and update. Their CM (Configuration Management) process is pretty freaking solid (which most people never appreciate until they get the "well, this patch goes with this device, and this patch goes with that device, unless you run this combination of apps, then you need this patch" type of confusion). The Garmin also has BT capabilities, but they have (wisely, IMO) shied away from it for AB, and have limited it to sync'ing with an app on your smart phone (app is not shooting related). Bottom line, Garmin knows how to manage disparate devices and apps (they did not do this well 7-10 yrs ago, but have obviously learned some valuable lessons and applied them since)

I have many, many rifles, in a plethora of factory and wildcat chamberings. Because of this, I have been leaning more towards the Garmin of late. The Kestrel is nice, and I still pull it out to double check the environmentals, but honestly, I get frustrated dealing with the Link App (the whole point of the Kestrel was to be stand alone, not have to carry and rely on a smart phone to exercise all the capabilities). I abhor fighting with a device to make it work. It's bullshit to expect a user to suffer through updating/maintaining a device.

JMO, but I am not in love with either of my ballistic devices; they are tools I use to put steel on target. Period. As such, I want them to work easily and reliably, and am not using them to show off the latest tech I can afford. Right now, Garmin is winning that battle (ease of use). It's a shame, since Kestrel (NK in particular) doesn't really have control of how the AB s/w works on their device; that's on AB. I'm sure there's a reason for the clunky interfaces (maybe too much too fast? or some SWAP restriction?) but I am just tired of dealing with it. I am curious to see how Garmin handles the LRF connection (I hear they are working on it now), as I do think the company that comes up wit the easiest to use, open standard interface, will win the day as LRF's and smart scopes start to become mainstream. I also sincerely hope that the Kestrel AB team can remedy some of their short comings, as I think they have a great device and concept of employment....they just need to execute that with a bit more attention to detail. In all honesty, I wish NK would consider making something similar to the 701 (wrist wearable weather station with standard USB cable interface to PC), with AB embedded.

At any rate, sorry for the long post, but that's my two cents worth...

 

[Tex68w]

Thanks for the reply. So the Reader's Digest version is that neither is perfect and you aren't really blown away with one in particular, but if forced to pick you would lean towards the Garmin simply for the ease of use and how effortless it is to keep updated. Noted.

 

[jbailey]

Don't have the Garmin but have seen it in action. I do have the Kestrel and love it. I like the fact I can keep it in a pack or hanging somewhere, etc., anywhere but on my person. I don't like things on my wrists, in my pockets, etc. If you like stuff strapped all over your body, maybe you will not mind the Garmin. I even have a bit of velcro on the Kestrel side and the ability to velcro it to the side of the rifle and a few other strategic spots where I have velcro. The Kestrel also seems darn tough to me, and its is easy to put in a pouch for more protection. How tough the Garmin is or how easy it is to protect.

As MarinePMI said the Kestrel programing can be confusing, but once you have mastered it, its not too bad.

 

[Tex68w]

If it's not already obvious, I am really wanting to try the Garmin 701. That said, I still haven't been convinced that it is worth the money/time. Thanks for the replies, still listening.

 

[Qazwsx]

The kestrel in itself is a good training tool to support your wind calling. But you could do that with almost any cheap weather meter

 

[Gil P.]

Since you already have the Kestrel NV 4500, why not get the Garmin too? The Garmin will be your most used device, and the kestrel will be used for helping you with wind calls.

@MarinePMI
Has the Garmin ever given you the wrong data when used correctly?

 

[MarinePMI]

Not to this point, no. They both use AB, so the results are usually within a tenth of a mil.

 

[Qazwsx]

Writing your dope on DA specific charts into an arm board may get you 80% of functionality youre looking for while saving you a couple hundred bucks.

 

[Tex68w]

Writing your dope on DA specific charts into an arm board may get you 80% of functionality youre looking for while saving you a couple hundred bucks.

True, but I am looking to eliminate the phone and the need for an app and I'd like to speed up my dope. I'd prefer to have dedicated tools specifically for LR shooting.
I am leaning towards trying out the Garmin Foretrex 701. I need to upgrade my range finder badly, any recommendations there? Is the Sig Kilo 2000 enough or should I consider the Terrapin or Kilo 2400?

 

[Gil P.]

If you're trying to downsize, look at the Leica geovid hd-r binoculars. You'll probably save some money by getting one of the older models, unless you really need to range to 2700 yards, (3000 for the HD-b), that's what they are rated for anyway. The HD-r models are cheaper, and don't include ballistic programs.

 

[dgheriani]

I'd upgrade your LRF first, honestly. Get a Sig Kilo 2200, 2400 or a Terrapin X. Then get a Kestrel 5700 Elite AB. Honestly, I don't really see the point of the Garmin, granted, I've never used it. You'll still have to input a wind value so you need your old Kestrel.

Before I got a Kestrel 5700AB, I used the same system as you, Kestrel 4500NV and a ballistic app on my phone (Ballistic AE). I'd wear an armboard and write the DA and Temp in it (which I'd already have inputed into the app). I'd recheck DA and temp every hour or so (or every stage at a match) on the Kestrel and if it had changed enough to warrant it, I'd input the new values into the app.

The Kestrel 5700AB is a fantastic tool, when you learn how to use it, way above and beyond simply removing your phone from the equation. I see the Garmin as kind of a gimmick, honestly. Something to consider, and this is a problem with LRFs that have built in solvers and atmospheric sensors is that they are affected by being in the sun, in your pocket, etc. With a Kestrel, it's as easy as giving it a twirl on it's lanyard, getting the correct atmospherics, then turning off the atmospheric updates. Not as practical with a LRF and certainly not with a watch...

 

[Gil P.]

That's good advice, although I think having binoculars with a built in rangefinder, not a ballistics program, is better than having a monocular type rangefinder. Binoculars are much better at scanning a field of targets.

Does anyone know offhand if the Garmin 701 was used for the king of 2 mile competition? I've never seen anyone use one before, I'm curious about it too.

 

[dgheriani]

That's good advice, although I think having binoculars with a built in rangefinder, not a ballistics program, is better than having a monocular type rangefinder. Binoculars are much better at scanning a field of targets.

Does anyone know offhand if the Garmin 701 was used for the king of 2 mile competition? I've never seen anyone use one before, I'm curious about it too.

I generally use binos to scan for targets before I range them with the LRF. I also sometimes scan for targets with my spotting scope and I have a setup to attach my LRF to the side of it so it's co-witnessed with the spotter's reticle. When possible I always try and range off a tripod just cause it's so much more stable and you get better returns.

 

[MarinePMI]

I'd upgrade your LRF first, honestly. Get a Sig Kilo 2200, 2400 or a Terrapin X. Then get a Kestrel 5700 Elite AB. Honestly, I don't really see the point of the Garmin, granted, I've never used it. You'll still have to input a wind value so you need your old Kestrel.

Before I got a Kestrel 5700AB, I used the same system as you, Kestrel 4500NV and a ballistic app on my phone (Ballistic AE). I'd wear an armboard and write the DA and Temp in it (which I'd already have inputed into the app). I'd recheck DA and temp every hour or so (or every stage at a match) on the Kestrel and if it had changed enough to warrant it, I'd input the new values into the app.

The Kestrel 5700AB is a fantastic tool, when you learn how to use it, way above and beyond simply removing your phone from the equation. I see the Garmin as kind of a gimmick, honestly. Something to consider, and this is a problem with LRFs that have built in solvers and atmospheric sensors is that they are affected by being in the sun, in your pocket, etc. With a Kestrel, it's as easy as giving it a twirl on it's lanyard, getting the correct atmospherics, then turning off the atmospheric updates. Not as practical with a LRF and certainly not with a watch...

The Garmin is far from a gimmick. Having used both the Garmin and the Kestrel. the Garmin is much more user friendly IME. The temp sensor goes on the inside wrist band, so it stays out of the direct sun light, but has constant temp readings. Like I said, it's a personal preference sort of thing. They both work well, when everything is set up.

As to the Ko2M, I have no idea if a Garmin was used. In that type of shooting, I doubt it. There's no need for the convenience and speed that the Garmin offers. I know @Lowlight has both, and has used both. I have both, and tend to go back forth between them as well.

The Garmin is geared for hunting more so than PRS (hence the GPS/tracking capability). The Kestrel is handy for those that can't call wind accurately, or when the wind is up over 15mph and it gets really difficult for anyone to call it accurately. That being said, once you learn how to accurately call wind, the Kestrel looses a lot of it's allure and utility.

Bottom line: If you can't call wind for crap, get the Kestrel and live with the clunky software. If you can call the wind, I'd lean towards the Garmin (personally).

 

[Tex68w]

Where I live and do 95% of my shooting it's safe to say that the wind is 15+ most days 8-10 months out of the year. I really should take a class on reading wind to improve my abilities just as a baseline.

 

[MarinePMI]

This is why some will run with a cheap(est) Kestrel in their pack, and a Garmin on their wrist. The Kestrel becomes a back up for when wind calls get tough (or environmentals change drastically), and the Garmin is used as the primary ballistic calculator.

 

[dgheriani]

The Garmin is far from a gimmick. Having used both the Garmin and the Kestrel. the Garmin is much more user friendly IME. The temp sensor goes on the inside wrist band, so it stays out of the direct sun light, but has constant temp readings. Like I said, it's a personal preference sort of thing. They both work well, when everything is set up.

As to the Ko2M, I have no idea if a Garmin was used. In that type of shooting, I doubt it. There's no need for the convenience and speed that the Garmin offers. I know @Lowlight has both, and has used both. I have both, and tend to go back forth between them as well.

The Garmin is geared for hunting more so than PRS (hence the GPS/tracking capability). The Kestrel is handy for those that can't call wind accurately, or when the wind is up over 15mph and it gets really difficult for anyone to call it accurately. That being said, once you learn how to accurately call wind, the Kestrel looses a lot of it's allure and utility.

Bottom line: If you can't call wind for crap, get the Kestrel and live with the clunky software. If you can call the wind, I'd lean towards the Garmin (personally).

Fair enough. I'll agree the Kestrel is great for learning to call wind and "calibrating" your senses to what a certain wind value looks and feels like.

 

[Tex68w]

I generally use binos to scan for targets before I range them with the LRF. I also sometimes scan for targets with my spotting scope and I have a setup to attach my LRF to the side of it so it's co-witnessed with the spotter's reticle. When possible I always try and range off a tripod just cause it's so much more stable and you get better returns.

This was my intention as well but replace the scanning and ID'ing of targets with binos instead of a spotter. I'll have both the LRF and Binos attached to the same ARCA-Swiss adapter plate so that they work in conjunction with one another. If I need the tripod for the rifle then I can just throw the lever and remove the plate with the LRF/Binos and slap the rifle in its place.

Ideally I'd like to get a spotter as well, but I am hesitant because I didn't use the last one I had much and I am not sure I would this time around either.

 

[Lowlight]

I honestly like the Garmin a tick better, but the Kestrel is a bit more of a one solution unit when you add in the wind. It's an easier sell to point people towards the Kestrel. But I like working with the Garmin a lot.

With modern cartridges, rifles, etc, most shooters are "Edge of Plate" guys and are using the Kestrel for dope vs wind calls, because there is not a lot of wind calling going on.

There is a lot to be said for calibrating your senses and using the Kestrel for wind, but it really depends on the context of the situation. I think if you are more likely to hunt vs compete the Garmin is a better buy. If you are LE the Garmin is a better choice. It really depends on how you work the wind vs walking around needing the GPS.

If Garmin extended the watches features to the Foretrex letting your Download Faces and other apps it would really jump to the next level. And I have recommended Garmin link it via Bluetooth to a WeatherFlow Wind Impeller it would take it to the next level. It would make it a few bucks cheaper with the ability to read the wind too.

Both have their places if you are more likely to walk vs compete the Garmin has the edge.

 

[Tex68w]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone.

To be frank, I am simply looking for a more streamlined way to get my end result. I plan to mess with NRL this upcoming season and see if I like it enough to maybe shoot some more matches for the foreseeable future. I do some hunting but no more than one hunt per year where long unknown distances would come into play. From what I understand, NRL doesn't have any timed stages and all distances to target are given prior to the match so in regards to that I don't really need to speed up my calculations any and can continue to do so in the same fashion that I do currently.

I definitely need to upgrade my LRF but I am still considering picking up a 701 just to play with it and see what I think.

 

[Gil P.]

Is the consus that both will get you reliable hits on target, but the Kestrel is better for the competitor because of its ability to read the wind?

Which has the better user interface?

 

[hereinaz]

This is why some will run with a cheap(est) Kestrel in their pack, and a Garmin on their wrist. The Kestrel becomes a back up for when wind calls get tough (or environmentals change drastically), and the Garmin is used as the primary ballistic calculator.

This is what I do. I sold my Kestrel after running the Garmin.

And, Kestrel AB really doesn't "solve" the wind problem. I bracket two wind speeds in the Garmin based on my cheap Kestrel reading.

I love having it on my wrist in comps. Hunting, having a quick edit function for one shot is great.

It is not a gimmick.

 

[MarinePMI]

Is the consus that both will get you reliable hits on target, but the Kestrel is better for the competitor because of its ability to read the wind?

Which has the better user interface?

JMO, but the Kestrel has more buttons, so it's easier to navigate the menus, but has a smaller screen. I also suspect it has a more constrained SWAP (size, weight and power) footprint. The Garmin has a bigger screen, but less buttons, so the buttonology takes a few outings to get ingrained into muscle memory. So from a classic "User Interface", it's a draw. (with maybe an edge to the Garmin, since you can wear it in an unobtrusive way).

From a total "User Experience", the Garmin wins hands down in my book. No funky app to try and build/load profiles and get Geoloc info (which doesn't work out in the middle of nowhere, since the cellphone needs coverage to establish that), and updating is pretty painless through the PC Garmin device manager (same one I use for all my vehicles' GPS devices, since several of them are pre-integrated GPS era vehicles). The Kestrel s/w and apps are just clunky IMO and often leave me frustrated and asking myself "why in the hell did they do it that way?" or "Why didn't they just xxxx?".

Now, to be fair, my day job is all about interfaces (machine and user) and their applicability to mission requirements, as well as data fusion, semantic linking and ontology, as they apply to analytics in support of varying mission sets. So when I see things that don't make sense from a hardware, software or system architecture perspective, I tend to groan and envision why it acts the way it does. I've spent quite a bit of time unraveling the spaghetti of logic that evolved in some very old, complex, legacy government systems (50+ years of design debt) and have a good feel what a band aid, on top of band aid ends up looking like (as well as having been part of making some of those band aids...essentially robbing Peter, to pay Paul to meet mission criteria).

The world (especially with regards to data and devices) is a messy place. Moore's Law practically ensures it will always be that way. The Kestrel AB and it's various components (Profile loader, Link App and AB Connect) are heading down a very messy path that is (in my personal experience) very difficult to manage and field. Make no mistake, they can (and hopefully will) field a line of products that integrate seamlessly...they just aren't there yet. And I don't want (right now at least) to monetarily pay for the privilege of owning that headache. Again, not bagging on Kestrel AB; they have a product that works, and quite well once everything is set up. It's the getting to that point that I (and others) get frustrated with. I know one person that relies on his Kestrel for his job's success, and aside from the fact that it is what is issued to him, even he admits that once it is set up, he NEVER allows it to update/upgrade firmware or libraries unless he absolutely HAS to, due to the updates causing all kinds of wonky things. For most of us, it's an inconvenience and another excuse to go to the range and burn some powder. To others, it could threaten their very lives, or the lives of those they provide overwatch security.

In closing, your question was on User Interface, so in my book it's a wash, and really based on personal preference. But I still stand by my earlier statement "If you can call the wind, get the Garmin and maybe a cheap Kestrel for those really bad days". "If you can't call the wind accurately yet, get the Kestrel 5700, so that it is all in one package (one system to learn) and you can use it as a training aid to improve your wind calling skills." Later, whenever the next model comes out, and it's time to upgrade, you may be able to call the wind more reliably, and your preferences/options will then change. Your limitations are what should drive the choice between the two devices, not just the limitations of the devices themselves.

JMTCW...okay, maybe a buck fiddy worth...

Edit: Oh, and for an additional $0.15, moving to a Garmin and having to pull out a cheap Kestrel to confirm wind, inherently (due to laziness) forces you to start calling wind values. You'd be surprised how good you can get when you have to call the wind, especially if you shooting primarily just one main cartridge. Might as well leverage weakness (laziness) into a strength (learning to call wind).

 

[Gil P.]

Thanks for answering my question. It looks like the Garmin is more suitable for me.

 

[jbailey]

what do you Garmin users think about the ruggedness of the unit? I would be scared to be moving around aggressively in rocks, barricades, other stuff with that sensitive piece of equipment on... I'm a guy that has broken many Timex Iron-man watches this way and I would be worried about busting the Garmin in a similar way.

 

[Lowlight]

Seems pretty good to me, I have used it in several Comps with no issue

 

[scocoabeach]

what do you Garmin users think about the ruggedness of the unit? I would be scared to be moving around aggressively in rocks, barricades, other stuff with that sensitive piece of equipment on... I'm a guy that has broken many Timex Iron-man watches this way and I would be worried about busting the Garmin in a similar way.

To answer the above question first. I put a screen protector on my Garmin 701 the moment I pulled it out of the box and will keep one applied. It seems to be quite sturdy. I just purchased mine recently and have been loading my profiles. The MAC software isn't out yet and I'm a MAC user so inputting the profiles takes a bit of time, but I just add a few each night. I might have to load a Virtual Machine with Windows to load profiles, it's kind of a pain using just the device itself. If you have a lot of profiles you will definitely want to use the Profile Loading app.

I was also struggling to decide which of these two devices to choose. I ended up selecting the Garmin 701 primarily because of it's larger screen and the ability to see more targets or the range card at one time, plus you can input two wind-speeds and bracket them easily. I hedged my bets and ordered the Kestrel 5700 with link but without the AB suite. I can upgrade the unit later if I want to have both. I could have bough a cheaper Kestrel just for wind but I decided to spend a bit more and have the option for upgrading it to the AB version in the future if I decide I want both.

I'm trying to hold out for the Sig Kilo 3000BDX range-finding binos to pair with the Garmin to keep the total number of devices as low as possible.

 

[Tex68w]

I like this idea ^^^

 

[JimLee]

I bought one of these to protect my Garmin 701: This . It is also alot more comfortable than the factory wristband.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

I bought one of these to protect my Garmin 701: This . It is also alot more comfortable than the factory wristband.

I like that - thanks!

OP - hit me up for prices on the 701 / Kestrel whichever route you decide to go I can likely get you a bit of a deal.

I run the Kestrel 5700 with rangefinding binoculars. This setup has worked pretty well for me, in hunting and competition. It keeps the amount of gear I need to deal with to a minimum.

The main reasons I haven't switched over entirely to the Garmin, (which I do like) is that the battery life is significantly less than the Kestrel, and the Kestrel integrates with my binoculars. As we see more and more devices connecting (like the Terrapin) I think that integration will be an important feature. I didn't realize how much I relied on the integration until I tried using non-integrated binoculars. It seems like a pretty small thing, but once you get used to is, its annoying when its not there...

 

[JimLee]

No problem. The only problem I think some people would have with that armband for competition use is that the material is thick and stiff so the cover has a tendency to flop back closed when you are not holding it open. I am having my wife sew a piece of velcro on the back of the cover with the other side on the band so I can keep this from happening. I tend to get my dope from the Garmin and write it on a sidewinder type device anyway, but I do enjoy having the Garmin on my wrist for quick access if I need to make adjustments that may affect my dope. As a unexpected benefit the cover on that armband makes a nice sun block to keep glare off of the Garmin screen. I started from nothing this year and chose the Garmin over the Kestrel and I like using it quite a bit. It's a shame nobody makes one device that does absolutely everything, but such is life. I have also found that if you turn the GPS on the Garmin completely off for range/competition use the battery life is significantly increased.

 

[MarinePMI]

I like that - thanks!

OP - hit me up for prices on the 701 / Kestrel whichever route you decide to go I can likely get you a bit of a deal.

I run the Kestrel 5700 with rangefinding binoculars. This setup has worked pretty well for me, in hunting and competition. It keeps the amount of gear I need to deal with to a minimum.

The main reasons I haven't switched over entirely to the Garmin, (which I do like) is that the battery life is significantly less than the Kestrel, and the Kestrel integrates with my binoculars. As we see more and more devices connecting (like the Terrapin) I think that integration will be an important feature. I didn't realize how much I relied on the integration until I tried using non-integrated binoculars. It seems like a pretty small thing, but once you get used to is, its annoying when its not there...

Fred,

Yeah, I'm waiting for Garmin to come up with water proof power plug (ala same tyoe as the ones used on the SEAL team boats, that can be submersed in water and still work) so that jackets with the left wrist arm pocket can be used for a battery pack, with the cable feeding out to the device. Alternatively, the holder shown above could be modified to hold a battery underneath as well.