I just installed a geissele trigger into a buddies AR, it has a sweet trigger pull but fires again when you release the trigger slowly. I have installed about 20 similar triggers and not have this problem. Any advise?
Geissele triggers
- Thread starter Mac 181FA
- Start date
check your hammer pin. I posted a video link but that won't show until a moderator approves it :wtf:
the video link that might show up later shows a colt doing exactly what you describe, the hammer pin was swapped to one a couple thous too small and the rifle fired once on pull, and again during a slow reset.
I agree, could be the pin or the hole. Even if we assume Geissele never ships an out-of-spec or incorrect part there could be some slop in the hammer pin hole that did not exist with the old pin.
Well my thought was the lower. It's an off brand I have never heard of and through my trouble shooting that's the only thing I could come up with.
Since it is a non-adjustable trigger and not likely something gone awry with the end-user adjustments...it sounds like a lower/pin issue to me as well.
If you want to confirm that its the lower causing the problem...grab a lower that you KNOW is quality/mil-spec and install the SSA-E in question into that lower to see if the problem repeats. Similarly, try swapping out the hammer pin to a new one. If it does NOT repeat, then you've got your answer. If it continues after the swap, I'd get in touch with Bill about a return direct to Geissele for inspection and, likely, replacement. I highly doubt its the trigger/hammer/springs themselves, but stuff happens and Bill will take care of you if it is a problem.
As with any AR-platform rifle, even the slightest degree out of spec can get you into troubles like what you are experiencing due to stacking tolerances. The Geissele triggers are VERY tight and given the VERY short reset and light second stage pull, even a seemingly insignificant out-of-spec lower or pin can cause problems like this.
And +1 on dumping the lower if that be the cause of your woes! Not worth having a problematic, out-of-spec lower around when they are still plentiful (and relatively cheap) at this point. Friends don't let friends run garbage gear!!
If you want to confirm that its the lower causing the problem...grab a lower that you KNOW is quality/mil-spec and install the SSA-E in question into that lower to see if the problem repeats. Similarly, try swapping out the hammer pin to a new one. If it does NOT repeat, then you've got your answer. If it continues after the swap, I'd get in touch with Bill about a return direct to Geissele for inspection and, likely, replacement. I highly doubt its the trigger/hammer/springs themselves, but stuff happens and Bill will take care of you if it is a problem.
As with any AR-platform rifle, even the slightest degree out of spec can get you into troubles like what you are experiencing due to stacking tolerances. The Geissele triggers are VERY tight and given the VERY short reset and light second stage pull, even a seemingly insignificant out-of-spec lower or pin can cause problems like this.
And +1 on dumping the lower if that be the cause of your woes! Not worth having a problematic, out-of-spec lower around when they are still plentiful (and relatively cheap) at this point. Friends don't let friends run garbage gear!!
I just had the same issue with the S3G trigger. I replaced the trigger pins that came with the Geiselle trigger and threw on my LMT trigger pins. That got it to stop. However, not satisfied, I spoke to Geiselle himself and he quickly sent out another S3G. Once I received it, I installed everything that came with it. That trigger didn't have any issues.
So I think the trigger pins in the first S3G were out of spec.
So I think the trigger pins in the first S3G were out of spec.
Even if the holes themselves are in spec, what if the spacing of the holes isn't? Now that would be an easy thing to check with calipers. And if you found pins wide enough for the holes, wouldn't those then be TOO wide for the trigger pack? I mean, those pins are tight already. No, if it's the receiver, you have to get another one. I'd want my money back on the other too if had "milspec" anywhere near it.
I can see this happening if there is slop in there or the distance is far enough such that when you release the trigger, thus causing the disconnector to release the hammer, that the trigger hasn't moved into position far enough in order to engage it, or slips, thus allowing a second round to be fired.
You gotta get this fixed immediately. My notion would be another quality lower, I figure I'd get another anyway though. The other would be to send it back to Geissele.
My only problem with their triggers was doubling or tripling with the 3G trigger, but pretty sure that was me, I wasn't gripping tight enough and a small bump or recoil is enough to cause it to discharge again. Nice trigger, limited applications. It is hard to use it as a precision trigger.
It has an SSA-E now, and no problems at all with it. Slick trigger, the only one better is the Hi-Speed, but only if you don't mind adjustability. I have 4 of their triggers, all installed in quality lowers, the Mega being the cheapest IMO. No problems in any of those. Didn't have any problems with it in an Aero Precision lower either, and those are pretty damn cheap. But I guess fairly well made.
I can see this happening if there is slop in there or the distance is far enough such that when you release the trigger, thus causing the disconnector to release the hammer, that the trigger hasn't moved into position far enough in order to engage it, or slips, thus allowing a second round to be fired.
You gotta get this fixed immediately. My notion would be another quality lower, I figure I'd get another anyway though. The other would be to send it back to Geissele.
My only problem with their triggers was doubling or tripling with the 3G trigger, but pretty sure that was me, I wasn't gripping tight enough and a small bump or recoil is enough to cause it to discharge again. Nice trigger, limited applications. It is hard to use it as a precision trigger.
It has an SSA-E now, and no problems at all with it. Slick trigger, the only one better is the Hi-Speed, but only if you don't mind adjustability. I have 4 of their triggers, all installed in quality lowers, the Mega being the cheapest IMO. No problems in any of those. Didn't have any problems with it in an Aero Precision lower either, and those are pretty damn cheap. But I guess fairly well made.
Sounds like the hammer spring is in upside down. A buddy of mine had a similar problem with his trigger (not geissele), but when he pulled the trigger it sounded like it was striking twice. Pulled the lower off the upper and when we pulled the trigger you could see the hammer bounce when he pulled the trigger. Flipped the spring problem solved.
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Guy you have been a lot of help. I just put the factory trigger back in and it works perfect. The Geissele wouldn't work with either sent of pins and the lower seems fine from what I can tell. I think I will call geissele and have the send me another one.
Diver,
I will say that the factory trigger feels like your pulling two blocks across each other. I just checked that off as a cheap trigger. The lower is a MMC. If it was my money I wouldn't have bought it but not my choice.
I will say that the factory trigger feels like your pulling two blocks across each other. I just checked that off as a cheap trigger. The lower is a MMC. If it was my money I wouldn't have bought it but not my choice.
If by "MMC" you mean "Moore's Machine Company" out of NC (or whatever label that company is using these days)...run, don't walk, the hell away!! They are notoriously problem-ridden lowers (and their complete rifles are even worse in my very limited experience with one example).
Knowing that piece of info now...I'd almost bet you that its an out-of-spec lower causing (or at least contributing to) the issue and nothing to do with the trigger/pins/etc. themselves. As I advised before...if you have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT lower that you can try out, swap the complete Geissele trigger unit/Geissele-provided pins into that lower and check for proper function. Just swapping pins in the MMC lower isn't likely to "fix" anything and the basic mil-spec trigger (trying not to LOL if its a trigger/pins from MMC) has enough slop in it that it may function just fine in an out-of-spec lower in terms of not doubling/releasing the hammer upon reset.
Knowing that piece of info now...I'd almost bet you that its an out-of-spec lower causing (or at least contributing to) the issue and nothing to do with the trigger/pins/etc. themselves. As I advised before...if you have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT lower that you can try out, swap the complete Geissele trigger unit/Geissele-provided pins into that lower and check for proper function. Just swapping pins in the MMC lower isn't likely to "fix" anything and the basic mil-spec trigger (trying not to LOL if its a trigger/pins from MMC) has enough slop in it that it may function just fine in an out-of-spec lower in terms of not doubling/releasing the hammer upon reset.
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I have MMC pins and geissele pins neither worked. I will try the geissele in my JP lower this afternoon.
Whats funny is the trigger is worth like 3 times more than the out of spec lower.
Also on a side note, holy post count batman. It looks like a lot of people got all their posts swiped....
Also on a side note, holy post count batman. It looks like a lot of people got all their posts swiped....
Did you have a chance to try out the trigger/Geissele pins with your JP lower?
I'm still betting that it'll work 100% in a quality lower like the JP.
If the fcg pins are ruled out, could be an issue with the disconnector, or possibly an issue with the hammer itself. The best solution is to contact Geissele directly and they will most likely have you send it in and straighten the issue out. All we will do here is random guesswork-much like the trayvon jury.
I had this happen to me with my Colt CRP-18. The Geissele SSA-E is the trigger that it comes from Colt with. It's only happened a couple of times when "following through" on the shot. I'm not sure what caused it, but I was assuming I wasn't gripping tight enough.
Contact Bill/Geissele CS and get that trigger returned, inspected and replaced (or repaired) as warranted. (610) 272-2060
I had an early Geissele Hi speed that came with out of spec trigger pins. The lower was a CMT derivitive and the colt LPK I used before I got the trigger worked perfect.
The pins were undersized and would rotate, eventualy working themselves out. Bought a set of KNS anit's and it solved the problem.
If you think this may be the issue, try a set of KNS pins and see if that fixes it.
If it functions the same in both lowers, contact Geissele for help... sounds like the issue is with the FCG.
I assembled one lower that did the same thing with a mil-spec style FCG.
I had pieced together the trigger, hammer, and disconnector from what I had lying around (which I had done successfully in the past) but this particular combination resulted in a disconnector that came .010" or so shy of holding the hammer long enough for the trigger sear to catch the hammer sear when releasing the trigger slowly. I resolved it by grinding a similar amount of material off the "stop" on the disconnector so that it tipped forward a little more.
Since the Geissele FCGs come as a package, I wouldn't suggest you try tuning it, but I guarantee they will want to see it themselves (if there's not a resolution they can walk you through).
Joe
I assembled one lower that did the same thing with a mil-spec style FCG.
I had pieced together the trigger, hammer, and disconnector from what I had lying around (which I had done successfully in the past) but this particular combination resulted in a disconnector that came .010" or so shy of holding the hammer long enough for the trigger sear to catch the hammer sear when releasing the trigger slowly. I resolved it by grinding a similar amount of material off the "stop" on the disconnector so that it tipped forward a little more.
Since the Geissele FCGs come as a package, I wouldn't suggest you try tuning it, but I guarantee they will want to see it themselves (if there's not a resolution they can walk you through).
Joe
Known POS? How does he know his lower is out of spec?
If he tried the trigger in other guns, and the problem still persists............then clearly the lower is not the problem. That is unless 3 separate lowers from separate companies that he all owns..... all have the exact same flaws......we call that a statical impossibility.
While I wholeheartedly agree that the MMC lowers are known to be "problematic" at best (complete pieces of $#!T not worthy of paperweight status at worst in my experience)...given the fact that the OP has tried the Geissele trigger in question in multiple lowers with various pins (including the OEM from Geissele) and all had the same symptoms, it is clearly a trigger problem causing the issues here.
Geissele is a good guy and runs a solid operation...I'm sure he'll be glad to remedy whatever the problem is with this particular trigger be it with a repair or a replacement.
Didn't misunderstand you in the least (which is why I didn't quote you).
And yes...we're on the same page.
Why has everyone on this site gotten so concerned with being quoted, etc. lately and taking posts too personally. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers or otherwise called anyone's posts/comments into question as that was absolutely not my intention at all.
The only reason I quoted you, Cobracutter, was to reinforce the point to anyone reading this thread later down the line that MMC lowers, complete rifles, etc. are, in fact, generally piss poor, out-of-spec, trainwrecks in the AR world that can, and frequently do, experience issues not unlike what the OP described in this very thread. That was not to call into question what you posted, merely to respond somewhat to the rhetorical question posed re: "Known POS?" While clearly it appears that is NOT the case at hand here based on the identical trigger malfunction with multiple lowers, including those known for and held in high regard for their quality, anyone else reading this thread for the purposes of doing their due diligence on MMC should still see the point reinforced that MMC stuff is generally of poor quality and often times out of spec to the point of causing/creating problems with otherwise good parts (like Geissele triggers for example). I have experienced these issues first-hand with several of their lowers I have worked on for otherw and limited examples of their complete rifles and they are truly abominations. Until the OP posted his results with the JP and other lowers, I'd have bet my hat that it was the MMC lower receiver @#$%-up over anything else (see my multiple, previous posts in this thread). Just because the sun happened to shine on MMC's sorry ass on this day, doesn't mean that they aren't still to be held as highly suspect when considering their gear for purchase.
Again...admittedly not the clearest post above with respect to my having quoted you, but no ill-will or disparagement toward you intended.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers or otherwise called anyone's posts/comments into question as that was absolutely not my intention at all.The only reason I quoted you, Cobracutter, was to reinforce the point to anyone reading this thread later down the line that MMC lowers, complete rifles, etc. are, in fact, generally piss poor, out-of-spec, trainwrecks in the AR world that can, and frequently do, experience issues not unlike what the OP described in this very thread. That was not to call into question what you posted, merely to respond somewhat to the rhetorical question posed re: "Known POS?" While clearly it appears that is NOT the case at hand here based on the identical trigger malfunction with multiple lowers, including those known for and held in high regard for their quality, anyone else reading this thread for the purposes of doing their due diligence on MMC should still see the point reinforced that MMC stuff is generally of poor quality and often times out of spec to the point of causing/creating problems with otherwise good parts (like Geissele triggers for example). I have experienced these issues first-hand with several of their lowers I have worked on for otherw and limited examples of their complete rifles and they are truly abominations. Until the OP posted his results with the JP and other lowers, I'd have bet my hat that it was the MMC lower receiver @#$%-up over anything else (see my multiple, previous posts in this thread). Just because the sun happened to shine on MMC's sorry ass on this day, doesn't mean that they aren't still to be held as highly suspect when considering their gear for purchase.
Again...admittedly not the clearest post above with respect to my having quoted you, but no ill-will or disparagement toward you intended.
No worries. I was just a little confused... thanks for the clarification.
Do you know who mills MMC's lowers or do they do it in house?
Do you know who mills MMC's lowers or do they do it in house?
I was never able to get a straight answer as to which of the few MFGs actually produce the lower receiver forgings they use, but as for the milling/finishing work, it is done by them "in house" at their facility in NC.
Yea from what I have gathered, is that you have a handfull of compnaies that make the VAST majority of lowers. Aero, CMT and a few others. Then there are some small shops that make their own and have to either use plans or reverse engineer. I have been fortunate enough to have never had a bad lower in over 4 dozen builds over the years, so I have always treated lowers as a commodity (not including plastic of other materials). If its in stock and the price is right.......and the markings don't look like shit, I will buy them for future builds. Its all getting spray painted anyway.
I have CMT, LRB, cmmg, and spikes lowers that are heads and shoulders better milled and finished than Seekins (rough, dry and shitty anodizing), And I LOVE Seekins products.
I have CMT, LRB, cmmg, and spikes lowers that are heads and shoulders better milled and finished than Seekins (rough, dry and shitty anodizing), And I LOVE Seekins products.
I shot a competition today and my Geisselle match trigger went full auto.
I have about 500 rounds on it.
Not happy at all.
I have about 500 rounds on it.
Not happy at all.
