Geissele VSASS

It is really impressive work that Bill G. has done. Great work in short order. I don't think G has a chance to pull off an M110 replacement or rejuvenation, but he has his eye on the prize: The new 6.5 CSASS. This rifle here, that he calls the VSASS (lots of works mushed into "v") is impressive. Lots of imagination. Taking an SR25 footprint, and reinforcing the upper, creating a new long rail, a make-shift suppressor. And, the audacity to put a Steiner Mil ontop with a mount that looks like it can hold an M16. Just so much testosterone, yet refinement.
 
It is really impressive work that Bill G. has done. Great work in short order. I don't think G has a chance to pull off an M110 replacement or rejuvenation, but he has his eye on the prize: The new 6.5 CSASS. This rifle here, that he calls the VSASS (lots of works mushed into "v") is impressive. Lots of imagination. Taking an SR25 footprint, and reinforcing the upper, creating a new long rail, a make-shift suppressor. And, the audacity to put a Steiner Mil ontop with a mount that looks like it can hold an M16. Just so much testosterone, yet refinement.

Curious sir, howd ya come by the intel on it?
Also, any validity to the suppressor being made with less thermal signature in mind due to proliferation of more and more night/thermal optics?
+what's the reasoning behind reinforcing the upper?
Thanks for chiming in btw
 
Curious sir, howd ya come by the intel on it?
Also, any validity to the suppressor being made with less thermal signature in mind due to proliferation of more and more night/thermal optics?
+what's the reasoning behind reinforcing the upper?
Thanks for chiming in btw

No classified intel. Just read the articles that are out there, and putting together the tid-bits I hear in the industry, and I am a military rifle nut and clone builder. And, I could be wrong. I think there is a stroke of genius in what he has done, and the Army can indeed pick-up the upper and drop it into an existing KAC M110 lower. That was in the article. wham-bam, get us going! That is a fast way to get a new 6.5mm to market, and call it an M110L1, or whatever the next letter is. KAC is up to "K" The M110A1 is the new HK CSASS.

But that is all Army speak. The USMC and Navy Seals adopted the M110 with the Army when they moved away from the Mk11. So, you know how the Navy thinks about an Army weapon? Not good enough. So, the Navy and the guys at Crane are looking for a Navy CSASS, and the word I hear from the barrel makers is that they are hard at work producing 6.5mm blanks. Not .308 or .300WM (which of course are the same blank) And, from the field, it really looks like the Creedmoor is the new bullet. Yes, politically, everyone is saying the Rem .260 is still in there. And, it could be. My guess is that it is a done deal that the new round is the 6.5CM. Now, with Bill Geissele using a Bartlein 6.5CM, that adds weight to the prediction.

Now, go back in history to the XM100. Remington Defense offered a great weapon, together with DPMS. They pulled together a reasonable prototype at 1/2 the cost of Knights Armament's Mk11. It was the debut. They did not win, as the military establishment saw KAC as being able to deliver, and the troops knew the KAC products. I think the same is happening here. Will Geissele get a contract for the VSASS? Hard to imagine that. But, he has shown quick to market ingenuity, and a good enough reputation for triggers and mounts, that next time could be his time. Next time is the US Navy / USMC Crane CSASS, in my judgement. Again, maybe I am wrong.

And, then there are players like KAC, who have really been let down, with HK winning the contract to replace the M110, and Mark LaRue, who has been looking for his day to shine, and is showcasing three new 6.5 guns, one in small frame, and two in large frame.

... fun to watch, and super impressive to see what Bill Geissele has done. A giant surprise to me.
 
Certainly is interesting sir thanks for chiming in.

Say just a random question - the 417 in its various forms run CHF chrome lined barrels right? Ive always been curious, the SOF community seems to really like their 416's.. yet they(the MR556 atleast) dont seem to be anything special. Is there any reason the various tier 1 units have by and large switched to 416's vs Mk 18/M4 CQBRs? I know the piston guns run better in <11.5"+can configurations.. is there anything else to them?
 
Say just a random question - the 417 in its various forms run CHF chrome lined barrels right? Ive always been curious, the SOF community seems to really like their 416's.. yet they(the MR556 atleast) dont seem to be anything special. Is there any reason the various tier 1 units have by and large switched to 416's vs Mk 18/M4 CQBRs? I know the piston guns run better in <11.5"+can configurations.. is there anything else to them?

Well, First, the 417 variant has been chosen by the German and US Army for the new CSASS in 7.62. The German Bundeswehr has been using this for a few years as the G28. Very impressive gun and good results. The US Army is still developing what will be known as the M110A1. I think most of the design is done, but not final. As to your comment on the Mk18 being replaced by the 416: I am not aware of that. I am sure some units make choices from time to time. Can you elaborate?

 
Well, First, the 417 variant has been chosen by the German and US Army for the new CSASS in 7.62. The German Bundeswehr has been using this for a few years as the G28. Very impressive gun and good results. The US Army is still developing what will be known as the M110A1. I think most of the design is done, but not final. As to your comment on the Mk18 being replaced by the 416: I am not aware of that. I am sure some units make choices from time to time. Can you elaborate?

Well it's the impression I've gotten from pictures. Atleast in DEVGRU and CAG/Delta, most seem to opt for the 10" 416 vs Mk 18/CQBR.. Eg in No Easy Day, I don't know of any mention of DI rifles/carbines..
 
Well it's the impression I've gotten from pictures. Atleast in DEVGRU and CAG/Delta, most seem to opt for the 10" 416 vs Mk 18/CQBR.. Eg in No Easy Day, I don't know of any mention of DI rifles/carbines..



The reason why some of those groups chose the 416 to replace their Mk18's is service life. There are former team guys who have spoken openly that their Mk18's were getting cashed out after only a few thousand rounds. Mind you that even with the specs (gas port size) optimized for the Mk18, they will not last as long as an M4...which will not last as long as an M16 under the same schedules. The 10.4" HK 416 simply lasts far longer. When the 416's crap out, it's usually in the bolt lug area and not the barrel. There has been some speculation that the magic may indeed be in the barrel and less the operating system. HK has some super secret squirrel shit going on with their barrels. "Squeeze"/swagged/tight bore, proprietary Aubert Duval alloys, cold hammer forge voodoo.

 
. When the 416's crap out, it's usually in the bolt lug area and not the barrel. There has been some speculation that the magic may indeed be in the barrel and less the operating system. HK has some super secret squirrel shit going on with their barrels. "Squeeze"/swagged/tight bore, proprietary Aubert Duval alloys, cold hammer forge voodoo.

That could very well be. In my opinion, the use of a standard M4 cut-down barrel in the 10.3" Mk18 was a mistake. Crane should have used, or at least upgrade when it was available, a SOCOM profile. When you start putting automatic or rapid fire through a pencil-thin barrel, and add a suppressor, you get an immense amount of heat, and now use it in the desert!! The additonal weight of something like an FBI HRT barrel is minimal for the 10.3" that are in the Mk18. Shure, a lightweight barrel makes a difference at 18", but at 10" not so much. The heavier barrel would dissipate heat, and also (then) result in less (or no) warping. I bet some of the DEVGRU actors have seen the barrels on their Mk18 actually shift zero (aka warp).

 
I really like FN barrels. Every AR I own either has a German HK barrel, FN barrel or some purpose-built SS match barrel.

While FN makes a quality barrel. I hate talking inch and MOA group sizes with AR's, but on average from the 416's I've shot with 14.5" barrels and the 14.5 and 16" FN barrels I've shot, the HK will generally hold 25-30% tighter groupings than the FN's. However, given some of our experiments with the SCAR17, I have to believe some of this may be due to barrel profile and harmonics to some degree and/or minor technical differences; not at all due to the quality/finish of the bore/barrel. IMHO, they are both know how to make a good barrel.
 
I really like FN barrels. Every AR I own either has a German HK barrel, FN barrel or some purpose-built SS match barrel.

While FN makes a quality barrel. I hate talking inch and MOA group sizes with AR's, but on average from the 416's I've shot with 14.5" barrels and the 14.5 and 16" FN barrels I've shot, the HK will generally hold 25-30% tighter groupings than the FN's. However, given some of our experiments with the SCAR17, I have to believe some of this may be due to barrel profile and harmonics to some degree and/or minor technical differences; not at all due to the quality/finish of the bore/barrel. IMHO, they are both know how to make a good barrel.

Do you by chance have a real 416 upper? How much better is the 416 over the MR556? Ie could you chop/reprofile a MR556 and have a 416 for all intents/purposes, minus the chrome lining? The MR556 should outshoot the 416 given the barrel differences no?
How hard would it be to have a Noveske for instance, modified to accept the MR556 gas system and screwed onto one? Just wondering.
 
Do you by chance have a real 416 upper? How much better is the 416 over the MR556? Ie could you chop/reprofile a MR556 and have a 416 for all intents/purposes, minus the chrome lining? The MR556 should outshoot the 416 given the barrel differences no?
How hard would it be to have a Noveske for instance, modified to accept the MR556 gas system and screwed onto one? Just wondering.

I've had 9 or 10 real 416's pass through my hands in the last decade. I still have a couple real 416 uppers for old time's sake. I also have had a few of the MR556's but I never shot them much...mostly parted them out and kept what I wanted/needed as spare parts. HK knows how to chrome line well so it's not like some where not having it will improve accuracy. HK's marketing on that for the MR556 is kinda bullshit. It's easier for me to believe the Germans didn't want to give away some of their secrets here because they couldn't get finished barrels imported to the US per their export and our import laws. I know a couple of guys that have MR556 chop jobs and love 'em. And I know some guys who shoot the stock MR556 really well.

The real 416 barrels are no slouch. I had one 14.5" 416 that was spanking a gun with Noveske Afghan barrel in an ammo test because the 416 was still holding respectable groups on non-match ammo the Noveske barrel was screwing the pooch on.

It would be a pain to get a finished AR barrel to work properly Marvin Pitts has a way of trimming down the HK upper and making a cut down AR barrel work but he has to basically re work the gas port and gas block area to fit. http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/225924-new-mr556-re-barrel-option-marvin-pitts.html

I had got my hands on some HK barrel extensions and wanted to have some Bartlein blanks spun up but that endeavor was rather cost-prohibitive and I abandoned that project. I don't really shoot my 416's much any more given what I can be had out of the "DI" guns now and how much that has been learned in the last few years.