Rifle Scopes GEN2XR users....

#3
Re: GEN2XR users....

I personally don't like that it looks like the Crucifix of Death when it's illuminated, but that's just me.
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#4
Re: GEN2XR users....

I like it, but I wish there was a break in the lines at the center just like the Gen 2 has. It is more natural for the eye to focus on that point with the break. And in the 3-15X, the reticle does get quite small on the low end, but it would seem it will work very well in the 5-25X.
 
#5
Re: GEN2XR users....

It is all good... had one in my SB before having my 2 Premier's converted... spend some time behind it and it isnt that small, having the proper reticle focus helps tons when on a low power.
 
#7
Re: GEN2XR users....

I have the GenII MD and it is better for the 3.5-15, when Tactical Comp. Shooting, IMHO. I get faster target acquistion and love the "floating" cross hair. The GenII XR is half the thickness of the Gen II MD.
 
#8
Re: GEN2XR users....

I don't like the fact that when illuminated the reticle suddenly reminds me of my years in Catholic School
wink.gif
 
#9
Re: GEN2XR users....

The other aspect I'm not crazy about, and this is just a personal preference, is that the full mil marks are dots and not longer hash marks. I know that seems minor, but like a lot of folks I'm really into the Horus reticles, and the dots always make my little brain think that they're half-mil marks, not full mils. I just wish Premiere would build a scope with a thin-line Horus H27. I'd be all over that, and I imagine I wouldn't be alone.
 
#11
Re: GEN2XR users....

I'm getting the XR in my heritage. Never having used either I figure the ease of use of the illumination will make up for its thinness at lower powers. And its extra windage/elevation will help with quick hold overs.

Scott @ Liberty has said if you're not happy with the XR he'd trade it out for a regular gen2 as long as it's unmounted.

I'm hoping I like the XR cause I want to get to shooting with it.

LM
 
#13
Re: GEN2XR users....

" I figure the ease of use of the illumination will make up for its thinness at lower powers."

I don't understand this statement at all, care to explain please? How is an illuminated reticle going to overcome a thin line when the power is turned down to 8 power at say 2:00PM in the afternoon when you're trying to hit multiple targets while using hold overs and unders?

I don't think the reticle will light up enough to be able to help you out here, but I'm always ready to learn something new.
 
#14
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">" I figure the ease of use of the illumination will make up for its thinness at lower powers."

I don't understand this statement at all, care to explain please? How is an illuminated reticle going to overcome a thin line when the power is turned down to 8 power at say 2:00PM in the afternoon when you're trying to hit multiple targets while using hold overs and unders?

I don't think the reticle will light up enough to be able to help you out here, but I'm always ready to learn something new. </div></div>

Your assessment is correct. The illumination has little if any effect under the conditions you listed above. At least I couldn't detect it.........
 
#15
Re: GEN2XR users....

If you come from a mil-dot back ground remembering the dots are the mils comes naturally. Having it sized down is far better for "match" shooting and with pratice it makes for relativly accurate distance measurement. Using it for multiple target engagments at varying distances is when it truely shines.
 
#16
Re: GEN2XR users....

In my limited time behind the scope, the reticle is a little too fine. The dots and tick marks could be a little heavier as well. The only time that its a problem is when its a bright day and you're shooting multiple targets/distances and holding. If the target isn't a solid, brighter color, its hard to see your holds. I was trying it out in the brush and in trying to hold corrections on a dark, shaded target, I couldn't see the marks. I haven't run into that with my P4fine yet. Other than that, I love the reticle. If they could beef it up to p4fine thickness or so, I'd have to buy PR's for all my rifles.
 
#17
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tack-Driver .308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the GenII MD and it is better for the 3.5-15, when Tactical Comp. Shooting, IMHO. I get faster target acquistion and love the "floating" cross hair. The GenII XR is half the thickness of the Gen II MD.</div></div>

What he said.
 
#19
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: woodspider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can someone post a pic/example of the Gen 2 XR please? </div></div>

Just go to Premiers site.
 
#21
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they could beef it up to p4fine thickness or so, I'd have to buy PR's for all my rifles.</div></div>
The Gen 2 XR reticles for the Premier scopes have been spec'd at 0.04 MIL line thickness. This was beefed up a little compared to the original subtension of 0.025 MILs. The P4F has 0.035 MIL lines, very close to the current Gen 2 XRs.

Give Jerry a call tomorrow, I'm sure he's ready to take your orders.
wink.gif
 
#22
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they could beef it up to p4fine thickness or so, I'd have to buy PR's for all my rifles.</div></div>
The Gen 2 XR reticles for the Premier scopes have been spec'd at 0.04 MIL line thickness. This was beefed up a little compared to the original subtension of 0.025 MILs. The P4F has 0.035 MIL lines, very close to the current Gen 2 XRs.

Give Jerry a call tomorrow, I'm sure he's ready to take your orders.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Would there be any way to see a through the scope pic of the difference in the new thicker reticle vs. the old one, say at 15x?
 
#24
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">" I figure the ease of use of the illumination will make up for its thinness at lower powers."

I don't understand this statement at all, care to explain please? How is an illuminated reticle going to overcome a thin line when the power is turned down to 8 power at say 2:00PM in the afternoon when you're trying to hit multiple targets while using hold overs and unders?

I don't think the reticle will light up enough to be able to help you out here, but I'm always ready to learn something new. </div></div>

Like I said I haven't used either reticle, I was just thinking out loud. my hope is that shooting at dark backgrounds in bright sunlight that the illumination on a bright setting would help it to stand out. The heritage is my first venture into high end scopes, so I'm sure I have a lot to learn.

I will have the option of swapping it out for a std. gen 2 if it doesn't work for me.
 
#25
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done!

Really, they've been upgraded on all the new ones? How new? The one I was looking through seemed very thin. Moreso than my S&B.

At .04mil it's a deal! </div></div>

All Gen 2 XRs in the 3-15s are currently and have always been .04 mil. The XRs in the Heritage 5-25 will be .025 mil which is what everyone is used to seeing.
 
#26
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done!

Really, they've been upgraded on all the new ones? How new? The one I was looking through seemed very thin. Moreso than my S&B.

At .04mil it's a deal! </div></div>

it's my understaning that ALL 3-15X Gen 2 XR's are .04mil
 
#27
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done!

Really, they've been upgraded on all the new ones? How new? The one I was looking through seemed very thin. Moreso than my S&B.

At .04mil it's a deal! </div></div>

This concerns all the 3-15x Heritage scopes. The 3-15x with the Gen 2 XR has not been in production for very long, and all the production scopes have said subtension of the reticle.

What scope are you referring to where the reticle appeared very thin?
 
#28
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done!

Really, they've been upgraded on all the new ones? How new? The one I was looking through seemed very thin. Moreso than my S&B.

At .04mil it's a deal! </div></div>

All Gen 2 XRs in the 3-15s are currently and have always been .04 mil. The XRs in the Heritage 5-25 will be .025 mil which is what everyone is used to seeing. </div></div>

I think the rub has been that the reticle is too thin in the 5-25x. That's the general consensus I've heard.
 
#29
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done!

Really, they've been upgraded on all the new ones? How new? The one I was looking through seemed very thin. Moreso than my S&B.

At .04mil it's a deal! </div></div>

This concerns all the 3-15x Heritage scopes. The 3-15x with the Gen 2 XR has not been in production for very long, and all the production scopes have said subtension of the reticle.

What scope are you referring to where the reticle appeared very thin? </div></div>

The 3-15 Heritage. I've also seen many PR loopies as well and thought the same thing, thin. Maybe it has something to do with how small the dots and half-mil marks are, not just the reticle subtension.

Only way to know if it'll work is to order one and play with it I guess.
smile.gif
I love the concept of the reitcle. Not too busy, numbered, windage/elevation holdoffs...its well thought out. I hunt with most all my rigs so low light, busy backgrounds, dark targets, etc. are a concern.

Why the .025 in the 5-25? Is it due to the ELR nature of that scope?
 
#31
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SoundFx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a couple.

dsc02729g.jpg

dsc02727.jpg
</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">SoundFX</span> - do you ever get out to ASR (Angeles Shooting Ranges)? I'd like to check-out your Premier 3-15X 50 to see how the 3-15X's slightly heavier subtension compares to the S & B 5-25X 56 Gen 2 XR's thinner subtension.

I shoot at ASR all the time, but I'm in Los Feliz, the Hollywood Hills, and surrounding areas alot for work. Please PM me...

Keith
 
#32
Re: GEN2XR users....

I really like the GENII XR and have it in the majority of my scopes. IMHO the standard GENII was too thick and the I didn't like the illumination of the PF4. My only concern would be the different line thicknesses if your using a Premier 3-15 and a Premier or S&B 5-25.
 
#33
Re: GEN2XR users....

Luvman you're in for a rude awakening if you think you're going to simply turn on the illumination in the daylight and have the reticle magically appear, it doesn't work that way. I just stepped outside with my PR 3-15 with the Gen II reticle, the one people say is WAY TOO THICK, on 15 power at full illumination. It's 1:50PM and you can see NO illumination when placing the reticle against a dark background at any distance. I would recommend looking through a scope with the reticle lit in the daylight before dropping the kind of money we're talking about on this glass. You could go to the local shooting store that sells Leupolds with illuminated reticles and take it to the front door of the store and look at objects outside and see what I'm talking about.

If, when, you don't like it you can just send it back to have it swapped out? If I remember correctly PR was offering to swap out the Gen II's for the XR for what $75 to a certain number of the first purchasers of the Heritage. How much is it going to cost to send you scope back to PR for them to swap the XR back to the Gen II? It'll be more than $75.00 I think.

This is my opinion based on using the Gen II for several years in a Leupold 6.5-20 PR scope, and a S&B P4F in a 5-25. I've had a PR Heritage in the 3-15 Heritage since they've been on the market, I have number 12. I use my scopes on rifles that I shoot at say 1100 yards and in in practical shooting situations and matches. The XR is way too thin for ME in match conditions, or practicing positional, or mover shooting when you need to turn the power down for a better field of view.

The dots are too small for this kind of shooting, If the dots were the regular Gen II .2mil diameter I would want one of these scopes. The crosshair is too thin, and the .1 diameter mil dot is barely a blip on the crosshair when the power is turned down to the powers I use in shooting matches, at around 5-15 power.

I've looked through a few S&B's with the XR reticle. I only had to look at it for a couple of seconds on a 4-16 to decide I wouldn't be buying one for the kind of shooting I do.

YMMV, Canavar obviously likes his.

If you'll read the PR website about the XR reticle it was designed for the .338 LM and .50 cal rifles, they don't even start to come into their own under 1000 yards, so I can see where this scope may work great at those extended ranges.

Most people who talk about shooting here only look at the reticles on a computer screen before buying their glass instead of actually looking at them under field conditions. I've done my homework and have decided for ME what works for the shooting I do, and it's not the XR. I would LOVE to have a PR 5-25 with the exact same Gen II reticle as in the 3-15 model with the XR windage hold dots and "+"'s only the dots would need to be .2 Mil in diameter. In my opinion that would be the SHIT of tactical scopes. I'd even like to have it in a 3-15 Heritage.

But hey, do your research and buy what you want, it's great all the choices we have now days.

Maybe PR would be interested in sending me a scope with the XR reticle for the scope comparison that will take place in a month or so in the Houston area. I'm expecting several guys to be on hand for that comparison.
 
#35
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If, when, you don't like it you can just send it back to have it swapped out? If I remember correctly PR was offering to swap out the Gen II's for the XR for what $75 to a certain number of the first purchasers of the Heritage. How much is it going to cost to send you scope back to PR for them to swap the XR back to the Gen II? It'll be more than $75.00 I think.</div></div>

TB First thanks for your insight.

My heritage with the XR is already inbound. I picked it up through liberty optics. Scott has offered to swap it out for the standard Gen II if the XR isn't for me as long as I don't mount it. So it'll just cost me shipping.

So for the first few days I'll play with it in as many conditions as possible.

I do tend to find most reticles too thick and like the idea of the having windage holds. Time will tell I guess.

LM
 
#36
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The XR is way too thin for ME in match conditions, or practicing positional, or mover shooting when you need to turn the power down for a better field of view.

The dots are too small for this kind of shooting, If the dots were the regular Gen II .2mil diameter I would want one of these scopes. The crosshair is too thin, and the .1 diameter mil dot is barely a blip on the crosshair when the power is turned down to the powers I use in shooting matches, at around 5-15 power. </div></div>
I had my heritage converted from the Gen 2 to the XR when I had the knobs swapped to double turn, so I have a little experience with both. At this point I am inclined to agree with Tburkes: the XR reticle is awfully fine when the power is turned down or there is an adverse background. For ‘time sensitive’ shooting I also would recommend the Gen 2 over the XR.

For what it is worth,

Cheers,

DC

 
#37
Re: GEN2XR users....

Will premier be offering other reticle options at some point in the future?

Not a fan of the Gen II mil-dot (too thick) or the Gen II XR (too thin and too much a hybrid between a mil-dot and TMR reticle). I really hoped the XR would turn into a true milling reticle with longer hash marks, rather than mil-dots, at the 1 mil marks and smaller hash marks for the .5 mil marks.
 
#39
Re: GEN2XR users....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hazardus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will premier be offering other reticle options at some point in the future?

Not a fan of the Gen II mil-dot (too thick) or the Gen II XR (too thin and too much a hybrid between a mil-dot and TMR reticle). I really hoped the XR would turn into a true milling reticle with longer hash marks, rather than mil-dots, at the 1 mil marks and smaller hash marks for the .5 mil marks.</div></div>
Hazardus,

if 0.04 MILs is too fine and 0.06 ist too thick I figure it would have to be exactly 0.05 MILs to be "right"?
cry.gif

Some people like Mildots, some like hashmarks, illuminated cross or dot, christmas tree, numbers... it's always hard to please everybody. Since illuminated reticles are only economical to produce in larger batches, there has to be a solid demand for a type of reticle to make production worthwhile. While we can't please everybody 100%, be sure that we appreciate all kinds of comments that might lead to improvements in reticle design.
 
#40
Re: GEN2XR users....

Hazardus,

I'm afraid I don't understand your definition of a "true milling reticle"

What difference does the length of a hash mark make when you're milling a target? You need to be able to break the mil down as fine as possible, and in my opinion a hash mark scope doesn't do it at all. Why is that you ask?
smile.gif
I'm glad you asked so here's why I like the .2 diameter dot and Gen II reticle over anything else for milling.

Half a dot is .1 Mil
A full dot is .2 Mils
From half Mil hash mark to edge of a dot is .4Mils
From half Mil hash mark to center of a dot is .5 Mils
From half Mil hash mark to back edge of a dot is .6 Mils
From the edge of one Mil dot to the edge of the next Mil dot is .8mils
From the edge of one Mil dot to the center of the next Mil dot is .9 Mils
From center to center of Mil dots is 1 Mil
From center of one Mil dot to the far edge of the next Mil dot is 1.1 Mils
from far edge of one Mil dot to the far edge of the next Mil dot is 1.2 Mils

You will not be able to break down a Mil dot into tenths as easy as this using a hash mark Mil dot scope.

These dots also make it much easier for MY eye to keep count of a hold over or hold under when I have the power turned down because I may be shooting moving targets, or am in a position where I'm not going to be steady and want a bigger field of view

Now if people would actually study the dimensions of the center of the Gen II mildot reticle, the one on the Heritage, instead of just looking at it and saying "that's cool, I like the gaps there, it makes it easier to center on the target" or whatever they say. If you study the dimension sheet that is on the PR website of that center you'll see that you can use that area to really get some very accurate dimensions to help break down the Mil into much more accurate dimensions that are VERY important when actually milling a target out past say 600 yards where accurate ranging becomes more critical.

I keep hearing that the Gen II lines are too thick, I think that's great, they're easier to see when the power is turned down. I can still shoot groups pretty well on 1/2" dots too.

Oh yeah, and looking at pictures of reticles on a computer screen can be misleading. Study the dimensional drawings of the reticles to get a picture of how that thing is going to look in real life.

All just my opinion, I hope everyone gets the reticle that works for them, just throwing my observations and experience in the mix for discussion.
 
#41
Re: GEN2XR users....

Tburkes, perhaps my use of the word "true" was misused. That I meant to say was a "Tactical" milling reticle (TMR) just like on the Leupolds. Sorry for the confusion.

So while I like mil-dot reticles as well as TMR reticles, the thing that I'm not a fan of on the Gen II XR is that it seems to be a mix of both. You've got 5 mil dots spanning the vertical and horizontal crosshairs but then after 5 mils down, switch to slightly larger hash marks at #6 and beyond. Why not keep it all dots or hash marks, but not both!

I realize they are trying to hybridize the reticle but in accommodating both it becomes the master of none.....

The other detail that I just can't get over is the use of the +'s and dots in the windage markings below the crosshair. The plus just stands out far more than the dots so why not use it at the 1 mil marks instead of the 1/2 mil? For that matter get rid of the pluses and simply use dots at the 1 mil marks and remove the 1/2 mil marks. After staring at the reticle for a while to study it's usage, the pluses just seemed to be in the wrong place.

At the end of the day, this is a personal preference item. Frankly I'd love to see a P4F version with .1 mil dots at the 1 mil marks for windage below the crosshair but that's just me..... YMMV.
 
#42
Re: GEN2XR users....

Hazardus, I don't understand how the thicker reticle lines and slightly larger Mil marks at 6 and beyond introduce any confusion at all.

I've been in a situation only a couple of times where the wind was so strong that we were holding right at 5 mils wind, or a little more. What we did there was to dial 3 mils wind, that gave us two mils more mils to use in holds to adjust for the wind changes. By the time you're shooting in wind so strong that you're holding at the edge of the reticle it starts getting kind of awkward looking in the scope, so dialing most of the wind out to get back near the center of the scope makes it easier.

The five mils below the cross hair provides enough hold over capabilities for a .308 with a hundred yard zero to get you to about 650 yards, any farther than that and you will usually have time to dial the dope in.

The additional mil marks on the Gen II don't get used very often, but there has been a couple of times I've used them to give other shooters directions to a target that was difficult to see, by turning down the power to expose more of the mil marks and measuring from an easily seen object to the intended target. They work great for that.

You have 10 mils of dots to use before the reticle gets thick, I don't get your hangup on that at all. I like the thick lines, again, because of ease of acquiring site picture at lower powers under less than optimal conditions.

We're in total agreement on the +'s and .1 mil dots on the windage marks. That's why I want the .2 dots, because it does make it look backward to me with the bigger half mil +'s and the tiny full mil dots.

I've also got a gripe about the P4F reticle, just a little thing that bugs the crap out of me and I think it would be an easy fix, but that's for another thread.

You're right, at the end of the day it's personal preference.
 
#43
Re: GEN2XR users....

My heritage showed up this morning. the XR is a touch fine, but I like it. below 5x the hashes are useless, but I don't plan on shooting any distance below 5x anyway.

TB I see what you mean about the illumination. it's not daytime bright. I don't shoot any competition. I just decided to take the plunge for bomb proof optics. buy once, cry once kinda thing.

I shoot .308 so I don't need the DT 15mil turret but it's nice to have. a single turn 15mil would work just fine for me. all in all I think this is an Awesome package.

If the XR ends up being too thin in actual use I'd want the Gen 2 XL which isn't offered at the moment.

Thanks again for the insight,
LM
 
#44
Re: GEN2XR users....

Tburkes, I understand the usage of the reticle and have held over for elevation and windage in the same way.... (Haven't we all?)

I just don't like the mix and match, that's all. Now I have to recognize that there is a "dot", a "hash", a "box" and a "plus" at various 1 and 1/2 mil marks all over the reticle. If you have time, you'll just simply dial it in and aim at the crosshair making all the rest of this stuff irrelevant. However, when you are looking to take the quick shot using holdover points, I'm confident that this reticle design will force you to double check your holdover point thus wasting time. I'm sure with enough use you'll get used to it but given that I use 4 different high-end scopes (and a few low-end), switching between them all just propagates the problem. As much as I'd like to standardize all on Premier, that isn't going to happen. KISS with all hash marks on the vertical and horizontal crosshairs and 0.1 mrad dots at 1 mil marks for elev/windage holdover would be optimal (again in my opinion).

Just my $.02. I think the scope specs are great and it looks like a very strong new market entrant. Would love an alternate reticle though.....

Any chance Premier will do custom reticles at some point?
 
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